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Spoonie
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PostSubject: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 12:52

Hey all, I've been waffling over a warband (or two) to make for a campaign later this year. Traditionally we've used some house rules that make the choice a bit different, though. Just a couple weapon balances we've used for probably 10 years, so I don't imagine they're going anywhere.

First is a dual wield nerf, which is pretty common, but our version is that henchmen just can't dual wield, while heroes are unaffected. The second is that great weapons strike first when charging.

So, it shakes up the henchmen situation a bit for a lot of warbands. Anyways, I'll sort of lead you through my chain of logic on being unable to decide:

I haven't really played anything with shooting. I think Witch Hunters might be better than Reiklanders since Flagellants are so boss and aren't hurt by being unable to dual wield. Plus the hats. Small size, though, and my heroes are kind of wussy, I don't know how I'd deal with something like a Vampire. Those guys are scary good.

Undead! Ghouls are great since they're about the only henchman with 2 attacks now. Plus my buddy is playing Skaven and I'd love to stick it to him with fear. Awesome hero loadout with a super-badass and 3 youngbloods. Oh, and the Necromancer... Holy crap what a terrible spell list.

Possessed! Still get some fear and badassery, and the spell list is probably my favorite. Henchmen are workable. Beastmen will be okay with great weapons with their wounds, and then I can either hope the Darksouls hit on the charge or maybe take swords to offset the low WS. Yeah, alright, let's write up a starting warband. Wow, that's... pretty rough.

Beastmen! Same spell list, still has great heroes. Strong starting warband! Gors are 'fine' with halberds or great weapons, even if the 4 or 5 Ungor/Hounds I have to take are gonna be a little lame with no dual wielding or xp, respectively. The heroes seem like they'd end up being insane. In fact, they might be too good. A lot of the guys aren't that competitive, maybe I should tone it down a bit - I wanted to play something with shooting anyways. I like the T4 though...

Dwarfs! There we go, get the T4 and some shooting. As a bonus, the melee upgrades the ranged henchmen always get aren't actually that bad with a Thunderer statline. Heroes are a little beefier than most shooting lists too, so those Vampires aren't as scary. That movement 3 is pretty rough, though. Let's look over the scenarios... Hmm yeah that's kind of bad. You know, the guys might give me crap for playing these too, if I end up doing wel. Maybe I should stick to the rulebook to cut down on that anyway. Let's see, if I want to stick to something similar, but faster...

Witch Hunters! ... Or maybe Reiklanders?

Anyways, hope you had fun with that, at least. I got quite a bit of crap from owning a campaign with Pit Fighters one year, so I'm really squeamish about picking warbands from outside the rulebook at this point. A couple of the guys get that attitude where they're just "playing for fun", so if they win, it was obviously their tactical genius. If they lose, it's because you picked the most overpowered list. In the history of gaming. That you scoured the darkest depths of the internet to find, in an ancient and evil vault of horror.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 13:38

Haha - thanks for a great reading!

Auch with the double-handed weapon rule - Beastmen Gors with WS5, S4 and A2 will whooop some ass! Scary henchmen! Definitely changes the whole 'who wants to charge first'-game.

I believe Witch Hunters are quite fun to play. Especially as ranged. You'll have a bit of a hard time with the Vampire, but if you roll The Hammer of Sigmar or Soulfire, he can be toasted quite a lot. Else, Flagellants can still crit him pretty bad, and I'd just mount them with DH Weapons with your rules.

The other option, Undeads, just to get those Skaven scared away, wouldn't be bad either, but they'll prolly just run, hide and shoot your generally slow warband. Beastmen would probably be more suited to take them out.

Dwarfs are definitely a choice, but yeah, they can be pretty annoying to play against, so if your friends do like you say, you'll be the guy they don't want to play with after the campaign Razz

I don't find Reiklanders that good, but then again, I haven't played them much, even though their 'all-roundy-ness' appeals to me.

Won't comment much on Possessed, since I haven't played them too much either, but on paper they can become pretty badass!

Conclusion: I'd go with Witch Hunters. Their fluff is awesome as well!

P.S. the Necro can become insanely good with the right spells - Lifestealer on high T targets and Spell of Doom on multiple Wound targets. Watch thy enemy cry himself to sleep.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 17:03

Hah thanks. Yeah I've been leaning more towards Witch Hunters and Undead more lately. And those two spells for the Necro i do like, its just i know im going to get one i hate lol. Thanks for the insight.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 17:18

I am tickled by the fact that you think the necromancer's spell list is awful, but like the chaos list, which truly is.  Very Happy 

Everyone has their favorites.

The Witch Hunters are among the best of the human bands at Vampire Hunting. They have access to S4 warriors at the start. Flagellants are immune to fear. The Warrior Priest has nasty spells to use on the beast. They have tons of S4 missile weapons.

Finally they are good at making money, which gives them access to all sorts of equipment options and hired swords.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 19:32

Well, on the spell lists, it's mainly the number of total duds. For Necromancy everything aside from a 1 or 4 is between 'meh' and something I'd never use. At least in the beginning with Chaos magic you can contribute something with most of the spells, Lure sucks most of the time but at least you have something to do every turn. Even the flight is good for scenarios or going after archers with just a dagger.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 20:31

Well as I said, to each his own.

In one of our campaigns our resident complainer demanded that the Spell of Awakening be banned from further campaigns because it was so broken. Strangely he forgot his demand when he plays undead. Then his comments are more about the sad state of the re-animated heroes he has to chose from...
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 20:53

Fair 'nuff. On Witch Hunters, what's the general progression path for the regular Witch Hunter heroes? I was thinking of having the three of them handle the long range shooting. Two shots or move and shoot?
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 22:14

Since they are BS3, I tend to go with more bolts in the air first to give them more chance to hit. However, it never hurts to have at least one who can move and shoot to catch those targets that move out of the line of fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 23:00

That was my thinking as well. Then maybe ignore cover and some wyrdstone hunting skills.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 3:06

I'd probably just go all in on the Crossbows and have Flagellants + Warrior Priest for melee. Witch Hunters can't access Strength skills, so T4 is all you're going to get. You could go melee with the Captain as well, but he tends to die a horrible dead. My good friend plays Witch Hunters, he has a Captain called Murloc Trickster (something with the eyes), who's so badass with his Crossbow, that even my T5, W3, 2+ AS Saurus are hiding from him. Unless I get Sotec's +1T in, then I roflstomp him.

But yeah, go for the Quick Shot first, perhaps 1 or 2 with Nimble (preferably one with high BS). If you play against a lot of shooty warbands I wouldn't bother with Nimble though - just wait for them to go into position while you position yourself. If you get BS6, make sure you get a Crossbow Pistol or two for melee!

I agree with the Wyrdstone Hunter skill - especially on your low Ld Witch Hunters. You can buy a Wyrdstone Pendulum for the Captain and Warrior Priest. I'd make sure to get some other survival skills first though - Dodge is always either my first or second choice, since BS3 won't matter much whether you have 1 or 2 shots. If you can get one with Dodge and some Toughness/Wounds and put him in front, that would be awesome and you could focus more on offense with the others. Or skip Dodge if you only play vs. melee warbands ofc. ^_^ do you know what your enemies are going to play? Sorry, I mean friends ofc.!
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 10:07

Don't go for all-heroes shooting. It's a waste. 2 with crossbows + tilean marksman+halfling scout/road warden/elf ranger (20 gc upkeep is max you should pay) is a good fire support group. Rest should be equipped for cc according to opposing warband's most common T value. If it is 3, life is easier - standard dual wield, mayby pistols. If not, well - try to combine charge wh/warhound wh/zealot (wh equipped with 2h weapons or pistols). Not to mention that with BS 3 and crossbows (as VK pointed out) they will advance veeery slow.
ALWAYS keep at least 2/3 warhounds. From my experience I can tell that they are invaluable. High movement, good stats and most of all low cost. If you're facing shooty warbands they can form a cannon fodder line and if odds are really agianst you, they can be used for volountary rout. Most of all however (depending on situation), keep them near your key models (captain/priest) to intercept charges. Even in later campaign they are very useful.

Flagellants are key models try to start with at least one. Don't throw him into combat when it's risky (they are not quite powerful at the start - 1A). Remember that they can get LGT quicker than any henchmen in Mordheim. Not mentioning that their last advance is +1W (discussion expected). More on this later.
As for advances - in this campaign I started with 2 crossbow wielding WHs. One of them got "quickshot", other got "nimble". "Quickshot" is very cool, but your shooter is stationary and your opponent will often move models out of his sight. Later, it can be combined with "weapon master" skill, which will give you acces to longbows/elfbows with hunting arrows. Nimble is much better than quickshot at the beginning (for me), cause it will give you mobile firepower and you want to shoot as much as you can!
Your captain is most important model, he has very nice stats - give him some decent melee weapons AND a crossbow. In this way he can be used either in assault or as a shooter. When he get's WS/BS advanc
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 12:33

After thinking about it some, I came to some of the same conclusions you did, catachan. One of those Witch Hunters is bound to get an attack or strength right off the bat, so I could just take him and grab some pistols to go up with the captain on the front lines. The captain I think will have to go with pistols and melee - how else is he going to go get all those witches?!

I also looked at the hired swords, and was eyeballing the Bard, Elf Ranger, Tilean Marksmen, and Ogre as ones I'd probably want to plan models for. As you mentioned, two of the more attractive ones add nice shooting power, and the Ogre is sort of a later option when I don't have as much to spend my crowns on. I guess I may as well add the halfling if I can find a model, he's cheap as dirt.

My first planned warband:

Captain
Sword, Mace

3 Witch Hunters
all with Crossbow, Mace, Dagger

Warrior Priest
Hammer

3 Flagellants
Great Weapons

4 Warhounds

I could swap out the 4 Hounds for 1 more Flagellant to get two groups of two, dropping the warband size from 12 to 9, and saving me 5 crowns to get the Priest his second hammer. With at least half a plan to get one of those Witch Hunters into melee, I could instead drop one crossbow, and start with 4 Flagellants and 2 dogs. Then just shuffle the crossbows around to whoever is least suited to melee and start getting crossbow pistols with my earnings.

Edit: Oh, as for what my 'friends' are playing, Alpha, I know my two close friends are planning on Skaven and Undead. Beyond that, it's kind of a toss-up. I know at least 5-6 people are expected to play so far, but it's not till the fall, probably, so it could be up to 10 or so by then. Normally it's a pretty good spread, but melee has seemed to be more popular over the years.
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 13:43

That's almost the same warband as one I played when we were doing a one day mini-campaign.  I only had one crossbow, and instead more pistols (my group has a house rule that quick shot only applies to bows, not crossbows).  I played 3 games, and won all 3, so I'd say it's a good starting choice Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 15:52

Spoonie wrote:
After thinking about it some, I came to some of the same conclusions you did, catachan. One of those Witch Hunters is bound to get an attack or strength right off the bat, so I could just take him and grab some pistols to go up with the captain on the front lines. The captain I think will have to go with pistols and melee - how else is he going to go get all those witches?!

It can happen that a Witch Hunter gains an extra attack or a Strength increase, but when I'm looking at the 5 Witch Hunter warbands me and one of my friends have in total, I see 1 Witch Hunter Captain (of 4) and 1 Witch Hunter (of 10) with a Strength increase, and 6 (of the 14) with an Attack increase - none of them with more than 1. We're talking 2 warbands around 150, 2 around 250 and 1 around 450! I just give you the statistics Razz anyway, you're right, one of them might prove to get some close combat stats, even though I would still just go for some Flagellant Heroes then instead, but the more reason to take skills like Dodge/Leap/Jump Up (I usually never go Jump Up, but a lot do) first, both to get survivability and to see where the path will take your Witch Hunter. That being said, having Quick Shot on a melee Hero with a Crossbow might still not be a bad idea. Dwarves can pull that off pretty good as well.

Spoonie wrote:
I also looked at the hired swords, and was eyeballing the Bard, Elf Ranger, Tilean Marksmen, and Ogre as ones I'd probably want to plan models for. As you mentioned, two of the more attractive ones add nice shooting power, and the Ogre is sort of a later option when I don't have as much to spend my crowns on. I guess I may as well add the halfling if I can find a model, he's cheap as dirt.

They're definitely what you should be going for. The lack of access to Tarot Cards make the Elf Ranger invaluable, so you should probably go there first. I wouldn't go with much else until you hit the cap.

Spoonie wrote:
My first planned warband:

Captain
Sword, Mace

3 Witch Hunters
all with Crossbow, Mace, Dagger

Warrior Priest
Hammer

3 Flagellants
Great Weapons

4 Warhounds

I could swap out the 4 Hounds for 1 more Flagellant to get two groups of two, dropping the warband size from 12 to 9, and saving me 5 crowns to get the Priest his second hammer. With at least half a plan to get one of those Witch Hunters into melee, I could instead drop one crossbow, and start with 4 Flagellants and 2 dogs. Then just shuffle the crossbows around to whoever is least suited to melee and start getting crossbow pistols with my earnings.

Looks good. Warband size of 9 would probably be prefered. 12 members to start with could be too much. Perhaps some Helmets wouldn't be too bad either?

Spoonie wrote:
Edit: Oh, as for what my 'friends' are playing, Alpha, I know my two close friends are planning on Skaven and Undead. Beyond that, it's kind of a toss-up. I know at least 5-6 people are expected to play so far, but it's not till the fall, probably, so it could be up to 10 or so by then. Normally it's a pretty good spread, but melee has seemed to be more popular over the years.

Alright, I'd definitely go Nimble/Leap first then with the shooters. And max on Flagellants against that Vampire!
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PostSubject: Re: Picking a Warband   Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 17:00

I guess I can just see how they do in the first few games and decide which way to go from there. Thanks for the help guys, I think it's going to be the year of the Witch Hunters.

I'll just have to settle on which variation of starting band to use. On a fairly average exploration roll, it looks like 12 members is only 5 crowns less than 9. Makes me lean towards either the 4 hound option or only starting with 2 crossbows just to throw more bodies into the close combat pile in the early games.
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