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 All-Seeing Eye of Numas

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Aipha
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PostSubject: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 30 Nov 2013 - 2:11

My question is concerning the Magical Artifact "All-Seeing Eye of Numas". This phrase in particular confuses me:

"The bearer of the All-Seeing Eye can see all models on the table top, even if they are hidden or out of sight."

And then this sentence, from the rulebook:

"A model may not hide if he is too close to an enemy model – he will be seen or heard no matter how well concealed."

Along with this one:

"If an enemy moves so that he can see the hidden warrior, the model is no longer hidden and the counter is removed."

How is it even possible to hide then, when playing against an opponent with this artifact? As far as I can see, it's not even possible to hide, so the sentence doesn't make sense - he can just simply see all models on the tabletop, period.
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sun 1 Dec 2013 - 3:10

That's how it works - no hiding. I would be rather concerned with ability to shoot through walls Very Happy 
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Mon 2 Dec 2013 - 3:19

Pff... Then the sentence is useless in the description of the artifact! Razz

But yeah, this and Bow of Seeking... Same with Att'la's Plate Mail and this. But well, it's artifacts!
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Mon 2 Dec 2013 - 3:31

Quote :
But yeah, this and Bow of Seeking... Same with Att'la's Plate Mail and this. But well, it's artifacts!
Yep. Very Happy I don't think artefacts need to be balanced. Also, I would be very surprised if a warband managed to get two in the same campaign. Possible but extremely unlikely.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Mon 2 Dec 2013 - 4:27

Hrmm... Well... Yeah :-P campaigns, unlikely. Warbands not in a campaign, not that unlikely. Especially with Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums!
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 14 Jun 2014 - 7:26

Quote :
Infiltration: A Skaven with this skill is always placed on the battlefield after the opposing warband and can be placed anywhere on the table as long as it is out of sight of the opposing warband and more than 12" away from any enemy model.

Does this mean that the Eye prevent the opposing warband from infiltrating, since no one can be out of sight because of the Eye?
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 14 Jun 2014 - 8:21

Woot! A rules question! As written yes.

Quote :
Warbands not in a campaign, not that unlikely. Especially with Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums!

Um, what does this sentence mean?
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 14 Jun 2014 - 12:19

The sentence has to be there because if it wasn't, it would cause problems with scenarios where the bearer did not start on the field, but later came on as a reinforcement. The sentence in question makes it utterly unambiguous what happens when the bearer enters the field on, say, turn three and there are one or more enemy models hidden.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 14 Jun 2014 - 18:46

Von Kurst wrote:
Woot! A rules question! As written yes.

I know! Found one! alien 

Von Kurst wrote:
Quote :
Warbands not in a campaign, not that unlikely. Especially with Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums!

Um, what does this sentence mean?

T'was a response to this:

RationalLemming wrote:
[...] I would be very surprised if a warband managed to get two in the same campaign. Possible but extremely unlikely.
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sun 15 Jun 2014 - 6:10

Von Kurst wrote:
Woot!  A rules question! As written yes.

Quote :
Warbands not in a campaign, not that unlikely. Especially with Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums!

Um, what does this sentence mean?
I guess Aipha's group allows rerolls and +/-1 modifiers not only when rolling for wyrdstone but also on "exploration chart". (for example, how many crossbows are found at "fletcher")
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sun 15 Jun 2014 - 9:48

Guy in our last campaign managed to get both the Eye and the Bow in the same campaign. Surgical missile strikes!
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sun 15 Jun 2014 - 13:16

catachanfrog wrote:
Von Kurst wrote:
Woot!  A rules question! As written yes.

Quote :
Warbands not in a campaign, not that unlikely. Especially with Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums!

Um, what does this sentence mean?
I guess Aipha's group allows rerolls and +/-1 modifiers not only when rolling for wyrdstone but also on "exploration chart". (for example, how many crossbows are found at "fletcher")

That is quite correct Twisted Evil 
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sun 15 Jun 2014 - 13:18

NoisyAssassin wrote:
Guy in our last campaign managed to get both the Eye and the Bow in the same campaign. Surgical missile strikes!

Indeed! The Eye is the best of them all imo., but even better when combined with the Plate & 'Dagger' or Bow. Don't know if it's that good combined with the Hood ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Tue 10 Nov 2015 - 4:18

Somebody got the eye today. Just wanted to see if this particular opinion follows. This other player states that the eye allows him to shoot anybody, no matter what. That is, because he can 'see' them, he is allowed to shoot them (although he graciously provided that a model can still get cover, but his BS 6 shooter has Trick Shot, meaning he can ignore that, so apparently the only way to avoid him is to be outside of weapon range).


To shoot at a target, a model must be able to see it,
and the only way to check this is to stoop over the
tabletop for a model’s eye view. Models can see all
around themselves (ie, 360°), and they may be turned
freely to face in any direction before firing. Note that
turning on the spot does not count as moving.


The Eye's rules
The bearer of the All-seeing Eye can see all models on the
table top, even if they are hidden or out of sight.
He can
guide his fellow warband members through the ruins
(this allows you to roll two dice for the bearer after battle
when rolling on the Exploration chart). The bearer also
has an additional 6+ save (which is not modified by
Strength or weapon modifiers) against all shooting
attacks and strikes in close combat, as he can sense the
attacks before they are made.



The rules for 'seeing' suggest that it is not just the act of seeing, but having a straight unobstructed line to the target. That is, stating you can 'see' the target is not what is important so much as having a target with a line (of sight) from your shot without obstructions.

Consider how charging is written. You can only charge a target that you can "see". The exception is charging a model within 4", provided you can pass an Initiative test (but failing lets you perform other actions as normal and it doesn't count against you).

As another example, look at the Att'ila armor, which allows you to move through walls but clarifies that you cannot SEE through them (so while you can charge through walls, it doesn't preclude 'seeing' the enemy).

The bolded emphasis above are my own, but it seems that the Eye's intended purpose isn't to let you shoot anywhere, but specifically lets you see a model at all times, even if they are 'out of sight' or 'hiding'.

Look at hiding - technically, once you can 'see all of a model', the model is not hidden, but this Eye doesn't say to remove them from hiding, but instead it just lets you 'see' the model. So a model that is hiding from the warband doesn't count as hidden from YOU, which is a very different thing from saying 'you can see the whole model, so it is not hidden, therefore it is not hidden from EVERYBODY'.

Right?
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Fri 13 Nov 2015 - 16:07

I would say that a Warrior with the Eye can shoot any enemy Warrior within range and that enemy Warriors cannot hide while a the Warrior has the Eye.


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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 14 Nov 2015 - 7:27

My reply is probably inconsistent with the rules, and definitely inconsistent with how the shooting rule is written, but I make the Eye have a reasonable path for the arrow to fly too, before allowing a shot.  The Eye is magical, but the bow is not after all.

If the warrior possesses the Eye AND the Bow of Seeking, then, as mentioned by NoisyAssassin, all bets are off.

If the Eye is in play, hiding is impossible.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Sat 14 Nov 2015 - 14:18

Von Kurst wrote:
My reply is probably inconsistent with the rules, and definitely inconsistent with how the shooting rule is written, but I make the Eye have a reasonable path for the arrow to fly too, before allowing a shot.  The Eye is magical, but the bow is not after all.

Would agree to this.

Von Kurst wrote:
If the warrior possesses the Eye AND the Bow of Seeking, then, as mentioned by NoisyAssassin, all bets are off.

Agreed.

Von Kurst wrote:
If the Eye is in play, hiding is impossible.
... From the warband, which holds The All-Seeing Eye of Numas. This is, I'm sure, what Von Kurst means, but I just wanted to make certain, that no misunderstandings occured.

To further elaborate (since this was the conclusion of the thread, as I recall): The bearer of the Eye reveals the location of the enemy to his friends.
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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Fri 20 Nov 2015 - 20:02

I agree with the seeking bow and the eye pair being brokenly awesome.

However, the rule for 'revealing the location because he guides his friends' is a bit extra - it's the fluff for the bonus die to exploration.

"The bearer of the All-seeing Eye can see all models on the table top, even if they are hidden or out of sight."

This specifically suggests the bearer of the eye can see all models on the table top if they are hidden and can see them if they are out of sight, but the rule for hiding doesn't seem to be changed (that is, "No hiding is allowed" is different from "it does not count as hiding from YOU, eye-bearer".) Von Kurst has the right feeling of it.

While RAW arguments could be made, when looking at the way it's written, it's relatively clear.

Alternatively, simply taking a single sentence out of context creates a few weird results.

For example:

Silly Dude: "My model can see you, so he cannot Hide."

Other Guy:"But your model is out of action due to an Old Battle Wound--"

Silly Dude: "It says can see all models on the table top. So now he's going to take a shot since he has line of sight..."

Similarly ridiculous, but 100% legitimate according to the rules:

Silly Dude again: "Hi, two random Mordheim players in a scenario at Table 6."

Two guys: "Uh, hi. What's up?"

Silly Dude: "I notice both of you have Hidden markers on your characters and henchmen. Technically, an enemy model can see them, so they cannot hide."

Two guys: "But--"

Silly Dude: "Yeah, I'm talking about the eye again."

Thanks for the responses. 'Silly Guy' is a little extreme, but I see some new words on the subject now.

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PostSubject: Re: All-Seeing Eye of Numas   Fri 20 Nov 2015 - 21:23

Quote :
This specifically suggests the bearer of the eye can see all models on the table top if they are hidden and can see them if they are out of sight, but the rule for hiding doesn't seem to be changed (that is, "No hiding is allowed" is different from "it does not count as hiding from YOU, eye-bearer".) Von Kurst has the right feeling of it.

We play that you can't hide from the Eye Bearer, so you can't hide from his warband either, at least as long as the Eye Bearer is on the table. (Not that we have played a game where this has come up in the last ten years or so...)
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