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Captain Ludwig of Altdorf
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PostSubject: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 9:08

Hey everyone, I've got few a questions about the rules my possessed warband:
1) how many shields may a mutant with four arms carry?
2) how many ranged weapons may a mutant with four arms shoot each turn?
3) if a mutant with more than two arms attacks with both a two-hander and another weapon, do those attacks also always strike last?
4) general rules question: if a model carries an ithilmar weapon, do all attacks count as +1 initiative or only that one? (kind of lame question, but hey, that's what the RAW say)
5) must a chaos mage also roll on the injury table if casting dark blood fails?
6) does a chaos mage also damage himself with the word of pain spell?
7) how should the wording of the lure of chaos spell be interpreted? (I thought I saw a topic about that one some time ago)
8 ) can a model with the skill weapons training use a buckler?
9) if so: how many bucklers can a model with more than two arms use?
10) if more than one: how many parry saves may he make then?
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 9:35

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
1) how many shields may a mutant with four arms carry?
In my interpretation, you may only ever carry and/or use one piece of the same armour - i.e., you may not use two Light Armours, two Shields, two Bucklers, etc.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
2) how many ranged weapons may a mutant with four arms shoot each turn?
Still only one:
Quote :
Each model can shoot once in the shooting phase, so long as he can see a target and assuming he has a suitable weapon.
The exception is of course Quick Shot or Pistolier.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
3) if a mutant with more than two arms attacks with both a two-hander and another weapon, do those attacks also always strike last?
Well, if you go by the rulebook it says:
Quote :
A model armed with a double-handed weapon may not use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close combat.
So you may not even carry an additional hand weapon.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
4) general rules question: if a model carries an ithilmar weapon, do all attacks count as +1 initiative or only that one? (kind of lame question, but hey, that's what the RAW say)
Only that specific weapon - it's the weapon, which is easy and fast to wield, not the wielder who gets faster.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
5) must a chaos mage also roll on the injury table if casting dark blood fails?
No. It says after 'using this spell', not 'attempting this spell'. Using should imply some kind of succes.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
6) does a chaos mage also damage himself with the word of pain spell?
I've thought about that as well. The conclusion is always no. It says 'within', which is actually measured from his base, meaning that the range doesn't even include himself.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
7) how should the wording of the lure of chaos spell be interpreted? (I thought I saw a topic about that one some time ago)
Long topic and a long discussion. We play it like this:
Spell succesful -> both players roll a D6 and adds Ld score -> Chaos Mage beats score, he may use that player in the shooting, magic & close combat phase (which there will only be in multiplayer games) -> opponent's turn -> opponent test on leadership -> if he fails, Chaos Mage may use him in the Chaos Mage's turn as one of his own models.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
8 ) can a model with the skill weapons training use a buckler?
No. A Buckler is not a weapon, it's armour.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
9) if so: how many bucklers can a model with more than two arms use?
Same rules as for Shields imo.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
10) if more than one: how many parry saves may he make then?
Still only what one Buckler allows, or what Sword & Buckler allows.

Hope I could help! Razz
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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 10:10

I agree with all of the above, with two distinctions:

1) I believe that you should be able to use more than one shield when you have multiple arms; the rules for carrying and using weapons was written with a typical humanoid in mind- i.e. two arms = two weapons / one double handed weapon. The Extra Arm rule is not comprehensive enough, but I would look at making it possible to carry more than one shield if you and your group felt it was reasonable. Technically even with an extra arm you are still limited to only two close combat weapons, as per the rule on how many weapons you can carry which doesn't make sense at all. I also think that having multiple weapons / 'dual wielding' is so common I would like to see more people put effort into using armour in the first place; I don't think it would be game breaking, so I would allow it.

1b) In a similar vein I think you should work out a solution to the extra weapon ruling, when using double handed weapons. Just as they errata'd using a second weapon + spear and having the awkward 'do they both get to strike first, or at different initiatives?' argument I would say you should never use a double handed weapon with a regular one. With that in mind, having four arms and two double handed weapons sounds like it would be reasonable, and not break the combat mechanics- plus if you're crazy enough to model it it would look cool, so it has that going for it Wink

2) Because Lure of Chaos is an underwhelming spell I have always played it that when you take over a model that has a missile weapon (or the ability to cast spells) that you may use that weapon (or spell) in the phase you take them over. Since the wording is a little vague, as per 90% of Mordheim I would also talk to your opponent about what is legal to do with a model you have taken over. You aren't allowed to 'commit suicide' (which I take to mean 'instantly remove the model') but are you allowed to declare a charge / move off of a building with the intention of taking so many hits you go out of action? It can make a big difference, so best to check before you try it!
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 10:28

Thanks guys!

I'll just open a discussion on our own forum, taking your advice into account Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 10:38

The Ultra-Mega Bob wrote:
2) Because Lure of Chaos is an underwhelming spell I have always played it that when you take over a model that has a missile weapon (or the ability to cast spells) that you may use that weapon (or spell) in the phase you take them over.
We do not disagree on this matter. I might just be worse at expressing what I mean Razz

Concerning the 2 double-handed weapons: I don't see anything that disallows that with the existing rules, so I'd agree completely with that as well.

Concerning more Shields: I wouldn't mind a house rule either, but a 1+ save with Gromril and three shields... Daym.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 10:44

Aipha wrote:

We do not disagree on this matter. I might just be worse at expressing what I mean Razz
Or I might just be bad at understanding what you mean tongue 

Quote :

Concerning more Shields: I wouldn't mind a house rule either, but a 1+ save with Gromril and three shields... Daym.
They'd still only be attacking you back with one attack (assuming base stats) and you can always ignore all of the money and time they put into the guy when you roll a critical hit with any of your dual-wielding henchmen eeexcellent! 

I like the thought of lots of armour on a guy, but unless it's a Vampire, or other tricked-out, super-buff character then it won't make massive impact on the game, as they'll be staying alive, sure, but not really doing much, other than tanking damage... compare that to the thought of them using 4 swords and taking the 'Expert Swordsman' skill, which I've seen before -_-
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 12:13

Aipha wrote:
Concerning more Shields: I wouldn't mind a house rule either, but a 1+ save with Gromril and three shields... Daym.
If only our house rules didn't say that shields give a +2 armour save... Good luck punching through that -2+ armour save! eeexcellent! 
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 20:04

Quote :
Well, if you go by the rulebook it says:
Quote:
A model armed with a double-handed weapon may not use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close combat.
So you may not even carry an additional hand weapon.
Actually that is NOT what that sentence says. You may of course carry the shield, buckler or additional weapon. Your warrior just may not 'use' them if he is using the double-handed weapon. A common interpretation of this sentence would be that a man with two arms can not use anything except the double handed weapon.

Quote :
9) if so: how many bucklers can a model with more than two arms use?
How are you interpreting the rules for bucklers? Having more than one conveys no advantage under the rules as written.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 5:14

Von Kurst, you're absolutely correct, I miswrote - I meant of course use and not carry. It's even mentioned what happens, when a Double-handed Weapon carrier carries a Shield as well, in the following sentence. Glad you noticed Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 12:54

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
1) how many shields may a mutant with four arms carry?
In my group we decided that you can have a max of one shield per arm, if you so wish. Just make sure you remember that all models should be WYSIWYG.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
2) how many ranged weapons may a mutant with four arms shoot each turn?
You can only make one shooting attack per shooting phase as per the shooting phase rules. You need the appropriate skills to shoot more often.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
3) if a mutant with more than two arms attacks with both a two-hander and another weapon, do those attacks also always strike last?
In my group we ruled that each set of attacks are at their own initiative order so the Always Strikes Last attacks will go last and the other attacks will go at their initiative order.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
4) general rules question: if a model carries an ithilmar weapon, do all attacks count as +1 initiative or only that one? (kind of lame question, but hey, that's what the RAW say)
In my group we use the 'only attacks with that weapon' interpretation.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
5) must a chaos mage also roll on the injury table if casting dark blood fails?
No. If he fails to cast the spell then he doesn't get to use it. You only have to roll on the injury table after you use the spell.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
6) does a chaos mage also damage himself with the word of pain spell?
In my group we ruled 'No'.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
7) how should the wording of the lure of chaos spell be interpreted? (I thought I saw a topic about that one some time ago)
The only thing we thought was ambiguous was the use of 'suicide'. We decided that meant that the model couldn't do anything that would automatically take him OOA was disallowed (no jumping of very high hights, into lava, into water and then not rolling to swim, etc.) but things that were merely ill-advised were fine (lone-charges of rat-ogres, *very* risky diving charges, etc. We also ruled that it was up to the owner of the model to decide whether or not they would fight the controlled model.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
8-10 ) can a model with the skill weapons training use a buckler?
No.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 13:17

Aipha wrote:
Concerning the 2 double-handed weapons: I don't see anything that disallows that with the existing rules, so I'd agree completely with that as well.

Concerning more Shields: I wouldn't mind a house rule either, but a 1+ save with Gromril and three shields... Daym.
It is in my mind that there was a patch saying that extra arms could not be used to use any two-handed weapon
Quote :
The extra arm could be coming out of the mutant's head!
I seem to remember them saying. That being said, I am not certain if this is a real memory or if it is from a different game or what.

In my group there is generally at least one dwarf warband so pretty much everyone develops a hero for nut-cracking e.g. S4, Mighty Blow, Strongman, DH weapon is a staple and people will add any racial advantage to the mix that they can. Frankly, the more shields they carry and the fewer weapons the better to my mind. Remember, it is an *awful lot* of gold they are spending to get the model in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 13:41

Lord 0 wrote:
It is in my mind that there was a patch saying that extra arms could not be used to use any two-handed weapon
Got it right here:

Quote :
Q. A Mutant has Str 3/ A l, an extra arm (+l A), a great claw (+l A at +1 Str), and a double-handed weapon (+2 Str). He gets 1 attack at Str 4, 2 at Str 5, or 1 Str 5 and 2 Str 4. Is this correct? Does it matter if the claw is on an original, or a 3rd arm (especially a gift of the Shadowlord arm)?
A. This is not correct. The Great Claw replaces an arm. The text reads “One of the mutants arms ends in a great, crab-like claw”. The extra attack represents the ability to attack once with the claw and once with a handweapon in the non-mutated arm. On your mutant above you start out with 2 arms. You get the extra arm mutation so you have 3 arms. One of those arms mutates into a claw, so now you have 1 claw and 2 arms. The extra arm may be used to wield an additional hand weapon or a shield or a buckler but not a two-handed weapon (this arm may be growing out of his head!). This gives you 1 Str 4 attack with the claw and two at Str 3 attacks with the arms.


Last edited by Aipha on Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 14:51; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 14:30

Thanks!

However, mutants may not even carry bucklers. Also, I generally dislike the way it is written (which looks confusing and ambiguous to me)...
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Sun 24 Nov 2013 - 11:52

In reading the rules for mutations for the other post I found it specifically allows extra arms to carry a buckler. Not sure if that was ever patched out though, but if it wasn't then they can carry a buckler in an extra arm. That being said Von Kurst is correct in saying that multiple bucklers don't give any extra benefit - they all only let you parry the first attack (and no, not one parry attempt per buckler Smile).
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Sun 24 Nov 2013 - 16:37

Well, it sure goes against an existing rule using bucklers if it's not on your equipment list:
"your warriors can only use the weapons and armour listed in their warband entry"

But well, they did it with Skaven as well:
"The Skaven may wield a shield, knife or a sword with its tail. The model gains an extra attack with the appropriate weapon or a +1 bonus to its armour save" - most Skaven with access to this skill, are not even allowed to carry the shield in question.

So I don't know if they meant it as an addition to their list, or they just don't know what they're talking about (notice how they mention knife instead of dagger as well).
My bet is on the latter.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Mon 25 Nov 2013 - 9:25

Probably. Never-the-less it didn't make anything less fun in our group so we just left it how it was.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Sun 8 Dec 2013 - 7:40

Hey guys,

I just thought of two more questions. I asked the first before as a possible future scenario, but the question wasn't answered. Now, the scenario has come true:
My warband rules limit me to a maximum of three beastmen. Yesterday, my only beastman rolled 'the lad's got talent', turning him into a hero. With the profits of that battle (120gp), I bought two new beastmen. The question is, does my warband now count as having two or as having three beastmen? In other words, may I hire another beastman for my warband?
On the one hand, my warband still has three beastmen, so I wouldn't be allowed to hire more. On the other hand, only two of them are classified as beastmen, as opposed to being a beastman hero.

The second question probably needs house ruling, but maybe they released an official patch for it:
My gaming group uses several other warbands alongside the warbands from the basic rulebook. These include the Beastmen Raiders. Now that the beastman in my possessed warband became a hero, may he pick skills from the beastmen skill list?
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Sun 8 Dec 2013 - 7:52

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
Yesterday, my only beastman rolled 'the lad's got talent', turning him into a hero. With the profits of that battle (120gp), I bought two new beastmen. The question is, does my warband now count as having two or as having three beastmen? In other words, may I hire another beastman for my warband?
On the one hand, my warband still has three beastmen, so I wouldn't be allowed to hire more. On the other hand, only two of them are classified as beastmen, as opposed to being a beastman hero.
The answer to your question:

Quote :
The lad’s got talent. One model in the group becomes a Hero. If you already have the maximum number of Heroes, roll again. The new Hero remains the same Henchman type (eg, a Ghoul stays as a Ghoul)
So your Beastman is still a Beastman, not a 'Beastman Hero', which means he counts towards the maximum of 3 Beastmen in a Possessed warband.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
Now that the beastman in my possessed warband became a hero, may he pick skills from the beastmen skill list?
Not unless you houserule it Wink he would still need 'Special' as one of his skill tables though (unless you houserule that too of course).
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Sun 8 Dec 2013 - 14:25

For what it is worth we had been doing this so long I forgot it was a house-rule. I would say go for it.

Oh yeah, and +1 on the beastman-TLGT-hero-still-counts-towards-beastman-limit thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Mon 9 Dec 2013 - 6:30

Thanks, Aipha and Lord 0!
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PostSubject: Re: Possessed rules questions   Mon 9 Dec 2013 - 7:02

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
Thanks, Aipha and Lord 0!

Np, anytime Wink 
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