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Mythraine



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PostSubject: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Wed 20 Nov 2013 - 0:01

Hey all,

Wondering if a henchman group can be equipped with weapon and/or armour upgrades or only allowed the basic type.

e.g. can a henchman group with bows be given equipped with composite bows? or use hunting arrows?
e.g. can a henchman group with swords be given equipped with ithilmar swords?

I believe the rulebook says henchmen can't be equipped with 'special' equipment but has no description of what that actually is. Obviously I assume it meant lucky charms etc, but wasn't sure about upgrades and special materials.

Thanks everyone!
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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Wed 20 Nov 2013 - 10:07

We've always played it as being that Henchmen can only use the equipment specifically listed in their equipment lists (in the Warband section). Anything outside of that counts as special equipment; Heroes have to obtain skills to use other weapons, so it makes sense that Henchmen are restricted in what they can have.

I.e.: 'Bows = Bows'

Not 'Bows = Short, Medium and Long Bows'

They also couldn't take Hunting Arrows or anything else because it isn't a weapon, so it has to be equipment, which they can't take.
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Major Sharpe
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Wed 20 Nov 2013 - 12:00

Quote :
They also couldn't take Hunting Arrows or anything else because it isn't a weapon, so it has to be equipment, which they can't take.
Not that I doubt you're right, but could you cite me a page number for that? I've always been under the impression that henchmen can be given common equipment like rope & hooks or lanterns so long as it's bought for every member of the group.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Wed 20 Nov 2013 - 17:04

The rules for equipping warriors are given in the Starting a Warband chapter of the rules under the headings henchmen and weapons and armour. In the printed version of the rule book this is on pp. 64-65.

While the rules are not particularly detailed they do state "your warriors can only use the weapons and armour listed in their warband entry."
And: "[w]arriors may be restricted in regard to which types of weapons they may use. The warband's equipment lists tell you exactly what equipment is available."
In addition to the afore mentioned "[h]enchmen may never use any special equipment."

The Mordheim rules and Games Workshop rules in general always suffer from poor editing and annoying use of vague language. This is a given when purchasing their products and, as far as I can tell, a matter of pride within the organization. However the rules for Miscellaneous equipment do clearly state that 'only heroes' may use this equipment, unless the rules specifically say otherwise. (p. 52)

Occasionally henchmen may be allowed to use equipment or mounts as part of the rules of a scenario or an entire campaign setting, but these are usually fan made scenarios or campaign settings.



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Mythraine



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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 2:00

Thanks for the responses guys. I agree henchman can't use hunting arrows, or superior blackpower as (although listed under the weapon areas) is more accurately equipment.

Just to clarify (sorry if this looks like I'm asking a question you feel you've already answered):

If a henchman group can use a sword (it's in their equipment list), can they use ithilmar swords? (they're still the same weapon, just made out of a different material).

Q1. Can henchmen use special material weapons?

Similarly, a composite bow is not a new weapon. The composite/compound rule is an upgrade you can add to any short bow / bow / long bow (to make a composite short bow / composite bow / composite long bow). The compound bow doesn't appear on anyone's list (like bracers) but can be used by anyone who can use the simple version of the weapon (same as heroes being able to use gromril armour if they can already wear heavy armour).

Q2. Can henchman use/wear upgraded weapons or armour if the simple version is in their equipment list?

Neither upgrades or special materials are listed under miscellaneous, and aren't really new or different equipment. They're just better versions of the weapon or armour the henchman can already use.

And then I get more confused!
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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 4:37

I haven't played with composite weapons before, or any kind of 'weapon upgrades', so have no idea what the rules for them might be.

With regards to Ithilmar and Gromril weapons and armour: when I first started playing I went with the assumption that you could take them on someone with access to the basic equipment; however I feel that it's appropriate for them to be restricted to those with the Weapon Master skills, and I think the rules (ambiguous as they are) support that, because they are included in their own section of the Trading chart and have separate prices. This indicates to me that they are their own weapon, which isn't included on the basic equipment lists and therefore needs a skill (or house-rule Wink) to support having them.
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Thu 21 Nov 2013 - 5:31

Likewise I have no idea where the rules for Compound or Composite Bows might be found. I am pretty confident that they are 'fan-made' rules and therefore more likely to be subject to a variety of interpretations. I recommend your group solve that one.

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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Fri 22 Nov 2013 - 12:21

In my circle we play that ithilmar, gromril, blacksteel, etc. upgrades of weapons count as the base weapon for the purposes of equiping and so *can* be used by henchmen. Of course, in practice, this almost never happens because wasting that sort of money on a henchman's weapon is regarded as silly.

For gromril and ithilmar armours we ruled that they counted as heavy armour and light armour respectively for the purposes of equipping. This was some time before the official ruling that they were all heavy armours, but we didn't like that ruling so we kept our own.

Of curiosity, what are the rules for the compound bows you are using?
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Mythraine



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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Mon 25 Nov 2013 - 18:57

The ruleset we use is the 322 page compilation rulebook found here:

http://home.deds.nl/~mordheim/MordheimRulebook.pdf

I don't often refer back to the original rulebook, (or subsequent Town Cryers etc), so am not sure whether the Compound/Composite rule is fan-made or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it was fan-made though.

The rule is (p27):
Composite / Compound
A compound or composite bow uses different materials to make a better Bow. The bow is usually only limited to the users own strength and can be considerably more effective than a normal bow.
A Bow, Short bow or Longbow may be purchased as a Compound bow. The cost is twice that of a bow’s normal cost. A compound Bow shoots 50% further and can use the strength of the user instead of its normal Strength.

I realize it does present some abusable situations (though what Mordheim rule is ever balanced!). In the hands of a STR 4 hero, a compound bow is a cheaper crossbow with better range that can move and shoot. I have no problem with heroes having this option, but was dubious on henchmen getting it. One good improvement roll to get STR 4 on a henchman group and they'll turn into machine guns.

Anyway. I've now come to the decision not let henchman use anything that is not specifically on their list and you all have advised.

Thanks team!
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Mon 25 Nov 2013 - 20:59

Oh I wish they would have left well enough alone and never done that compilation.  Or at least not put it on the internet with that address.  Maybe GW could be useful for once and threaten to sue them.

Yeah that would be another of their fan-made rules, which are blithely inserted next to actual rules with no indication of their providence.

Its a 'bow' with a range of 48" that costs 20 gc.  In the hands of a Strength 4 warrior, its not only a 'better' cheaper crossbow, its a better cheaper Long Rifle too.  That you can use hunting arrows and Dark Venom with.  And Quickshot.  Do you allow Mighty Blow?

Quote :
I agree henchman can't use hunting arrows, or superior blackpower as (although listed under the weapon areas) is more accurately equipment.
Well in GW published rulebooks superior Blackpowder is listed under equipment, just saying. Suspect

If using this rules set is fun for your group, please enjoy.  This rules set is a nemesis to me, as new players in our group (and some veterans as well) often confuse these rules with the 'official' rules, which these most definitely are not. Thus I tend to get a little cranky when this rule set enters a conversation. Rolling Eyes

I don't mind playing by fan-made rules but I like to know that the rules are fan made from the get go.
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Mythraine



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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Tue 26 Nov 2013 - 17:31

Quote :
Yeah that would be another of their fan-made rules, which are blithely inserted next to actual rules with no indication of their providence.
I agree that it would be much more helpful if fan-made rules are explicitly stated as such instead of ambiguously passing them off as official next to actual official rules. Then each playing group can decide whether to use them or not, instead of assuming they can as official rules without consultation.

That said, our playing group is only new and are all happy using the large rulebook. When we come across a fan-made, overpowered rule, we all decide whether we'll use it or not. It works really well between us as we usually all come to the same consensus - independent of the usefulness of the rule for our specific warbands.

Quote :
Its a 'bow' with a range of 48" that costs 20 gc.
Wouldn't the compound bow have range 36"? 24" x 1.5?

Quote :
In the hands of a Strength 4 warrior, its not only a 'better' cheaper crossbow, its a better cheaper Long Rifle too. That you can use hunting arrows and Dark Venom with. And Quickshot. Do you allow Mighty Blow?
See above on our group decision making process on potentially overpowered rules. No-one has taken Mighty Blow yet, so this hasn't come up. Is there a problem with this specific rule?

Quote :
Well in GW published rulebooks superior Blackpowder is listed under equipment, just saying.
Yeah, I was on the Mordheimer website yesterday to double check against their Master Equipment List and noticed the same thing.

Out of interest, what rules do you use? Only official GW and expansions (Town Cryer, EiF etc)?
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Tue 26 Nov 2013 - 18:42

Quote :
Wouldn't the compound bow have range 36"? 24" x 1.5?
So true! I allowed my righteous indignation to get the better of me. Embarassed 

Mighty Blow--actually if you follow the rules as written by GW there isn't, since it is a skill that only applies to close combat. But since I haven't read the whole compilation thingy, I couldn't remember if 'they' changed it or not for the compilation.

Quote :
Out of interest, what rules do you use?


For basic stuff we use the 'living rulebook' from the GW website. We also have our own 'house rules' that evolve as we play. In addition we have a lot of campaign specific rules since we play a lot of pirate theme campaigns in Lustria, Araby or off the island of Sartosa. pirat 
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Wed 27 Nov 2013 - 15:51

In our group , we allow henchmen to have fire and hunting arrows, torches, upgrade any of their weapons or armour to ithilmar or gromril as normally allowed by the warband, if a henchman also finds an equipment in game (ie lucky charm, rope n hook, healing herb) like a random event, they can use it but there cannot be brought. also their weapons can be enhanced by blacksmiths etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Wed 27 Nov 2013 - 22:44

Is it really that unbalancing to allow henchman groups to buy a rope & hook? I feel like that's more of an omission in the wargear list rather than anything intended.
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Thu 28 Nov 2013 - 12:09

This is one of those occasions where simplicity trumped detail for the designers. Rather than go through and allow each piece of equipment individually for henchmen they just blanket-banned everything for them. I think also they wanted to highlight the cinematic difference between heroes and henchmen.
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PostSubject: Re: Henchman and Weapon / Armour Upgrades   Sun 19 Jan 2014 - 14:46

Quote :
Composite / Compound
A compound or composite bow uses different materials to make a better Bow. The bow is usually only limited to the users own strength and can be considerably more effective than a normal bow.
A Bow, Short bow or Longbow may be purchased as a Compound bow. The cost is twice that of a bow’s normal cost. A compound Bow shoots 50% further and can use the strength of the user instead of its normal Strength.

Tough I like this I'd never allow this in our games... I never want to see a warband of elves with that !!! However, just removing the increased range could ''balance'' this a bit !
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