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Major Sharpe
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PostSubject: First Warband List   Tue 15 Oct 2013 - 23:37

Hi all, first post.  Glad to find a Mordheim community that seems pretty active.

My local games store is starting a Mordheim league this Saturday. Having never played Mordheim before, I'm wondering if anyone has some general tips on play and warband construction. I believe we'll be using only the core rule set on the first night.

I've bought a box of Empire State Troops and Empire Free Company, so I'll be playing a band of human mercenaries. I've given the rules a read through, but having never played I don't know how many of my strategies will actually work.

This is the list I'm currently working with.  All the models are currently assembled/converted to WYSIWYG, but I have 4 days to make changes and haven't started painting yet.

Heroes

Middenheim (+1 S to all models)

Captain: 125 GC
+Heavy Armor, Sword, Shield

Champion A: 75 GC
+Light Armor, Shield,  2 Handed Sword

Champion B: 85 GC
+Brace of Dueling Pistols

Youngblood A: 35GC
+Bow, Sword

Youngblood B: 30GC
+Halberd, Shield

Henchmen

-2x Swordsmen: 100GC
+Sword & Buckler

-1x Marksman: 50GC
+Crossbow

Total: 500GC


C&C much appreciated.  Might post pictures of warband if there's interest.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Wed 16 Oct 2013 - 5:27

Welcome to the forum Major!

You have all your heroes, good.

Heavy Armor and shield on your captain. This means he moves like a dwarf M3. Not good for a fighter as it will take him awhile to get to the fight.

Champion with light armor and shield. Not to useful in the fight as he has a double handed sword which means the shield only protects him from shooting attacks. Also the double handed sword always strikes last so his chances of using it are slim until he gains some skills.

I'd ease off the expensive equipment and buy a couple more warriors. Good luck!
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Wed 16 Oct 2013 - 19:45

I have a bit more time now so I will expand on my reply above. First I understand that you are a first time player and have not played before so I am trying to recommend 'best practices' and not intending to criticize your choices.

Quote :
Middenheim (+1 S to all models)
The +1 S actually only applies to Champions and Captains in my rule book. I expect its that way in most other folks rule books too.

Armor is notoriously ineffective and over-priced in Mordheim. That said I am willing to take any that comes my way cheaply later in the campaign. However it is seldom useful at the start. I would recommend spending money on helmets and more warriors instead of suits of armor. Helmets are useful. Of course they are also scorned by Middenheimers in the fluff, so you picks your poison.

Also to further clarify my comments above, the combination of heavy armor and shield results in a -1 movement penalty which is never a good thing.

Weapons.
My group likes crossbows and swords for starting Mercenary warbands. This is not the norm as both are somewhat expensive weapons. Bows and clubs (or maces and hammers) are often recommended by others as they are considerably cheaper and in the case of a bow allow your marksman to move and fire. I like the crossbow's hitting power.
Hammers are a traditional weapon of Middenheim, just sayin'.

2 Handed weapons and halberds.
Since a warrior armed with a 2 handed weapon always strikes last, I don't tend to start with them unless I really like a model and want to use it. Both 2 handers and halberds take 2 hands which reduces your attacks (most folks will use that dagger or a club in the off hand.) I am not a fan of either weapon unless I am facing orcs, beastmen or Possessed warbands with high T. And even then I tend to go with 2 hand weapons rather than an expensive 2 hander or pole arm.

Once I have some advances, I am more apt to take a 2 hander or halberd for the strength bonus.

Youngbloods.
I don't tend to give my youngbloods anything expensive until they have earned it by staying alive and making me money. Also since they are crappy shots I don't waste missile weapons on them until they gain some advances.

I hope this helps and that you enjoy the game.
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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Thu 17 Oct 2013 - 7:45

I would echo a few of Von Kursts points, and add a few of my own.

- Armour is expensive and best left until mid/ late campaign (unless you find it or suddenly come into a lot of money)

- 2 Handed Weapons are best left until you can give your hero the skill which allows him to strike at Initiative with it

- Don't give your champion pistols; the reason is that pistols give you a S4 attack in the first round of hand to hand combat. He has Strength 4 anyway, so it might be better giving the pistols to your youngbloods, so that they can be S4 in close combat as well as the Champions and Captain. You do lose a point of ballistic skill when you shoot with them, but frankly, I always find pistols much better in combat than in shooting because of their short range anyway. You could also give them to your leader if you wanted to have the extra accuracy on the ranged attack, but again, it will probably be less useful than having a S4 Youngblood.

- After using Spears a few times, I can tell you that two-handed weapons like Spears and Halberds are only truly effective on either: multiple henchmen, for the volume of attacks, or when you have them on a hero with multiple attacks. Anything else means you won't have enough offensive power to do much. If you think about it, your halberd wielding Youngblood will hit 50% of the time- which is an equal split of hitting and missing. If he had two attacks he would hit 50% of the time, which equals one hit (on average) every time. Basically volume of attacks is better than high strength attacks which take two hands to use, generally speaking. As Von Kurst says, ignore this advice if playing against lots of Beastmen, Orcs, Dwarves or Flagellants; with those enemies you need the extra oomph of high strength weapons.

------------

If it were me, I would make these changes:

Heroes:
Captain: Hammer x2 = 66
Champion: Hammer x2 = 41
Champion: Hammer x2 = 41
Youngblood: Brace of Pistols = 45
Youngblood: Brace of Pistols = 45
Subtotal: 238

Henchmen:
2 Swordsmen: swords and bucklers = 100
2 Marksmen: Crossbows = 100
2 Warriors: Hammer x2 (each) = 62
Subtotal: 262

Total: 500GC

It's pretty fluffy with lots of hammers, and each of your five heroes has Strength 4 attacks in close combat (at least for the first turn, after which your Youngbloods will be back to S3) whichshould help them punch through people pretty quickly, as they'll have two attacks each before upgrades kick in and make them more vicious.

Having two marksmen is always a good plan, and I agree that I prefer crossbows for the higher chance to wound- you just have to pick your spots with them better than you would if they had bows instead. The warriors and Swordsmen are there for bait, but with two attacks each the warriors aren't to be trifled with and can lay down some hurt if they can counter-charge anyone.

Just my two cents, but this is the kind of list I would play, but our group is at least a little competitive. If you want more variety then you could rebalance the Youngbloods to save points- take away their pistols and use the points to buy some helmets or bucklers for your heroes instead of extra weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Thu 17 Oct 2013 - 11:19

All the advice you've been given so far is sound, and Bob's list is pretty close to the optimum I would say. However, my advice would be to take a more varied weapon choice - especially since it's your first foray into Mordheim. I would do this for several reasons:

- Tactical variety - especially if you don't know what your up against.
- Character - if all your models are equipped the same it's harder for them to develop their own personalities.
- Visual and modelling variety - go with what looks cool is how I always approach Mordheim.
- Developing your own style - you'll get a feel for how you like to play and then you can tailor your later choices to that.
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Thu 17 Oct 2013 - 12:58

Quote :
Youngblood: Brace of Pistols = 45
Youngblood: Brace of Pistols = 45
I wouldn't do that. Two strength 4 attacks are nice, but also very expensive. Youngbloods are WS 2 only, so will probably hit on 5s. The two usual options for Youngbloods are sword and mace or a twohanded weapon. Sword, because due to WS 2 they can be hit on 3s usually, so they themselves have a higher chance of parrying (twisted logic here...). Twohanded weapon to stay back in h2h-combat and charge the opponents that are stunned or knocked down and get some easy xp. You could keep one pistol each (plus a hammer) but the second one is just too expensive for what it's worth. I'd probably go with one twohanded weapon for one YB and two hammers for the other. Also, you only have 8 warriors. I'd go for 9 at least, so you would need to lose 3 warriors instead of 2 before you have to take your first rout-test. 13 warbandmembers would be best, you could get there by dropping some equipment (as was suggested earlier).

+ I like what Odin Morgrimsson says!
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Major Sharpe
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Thu 17 Oct 2013 - 20:30

Thanks for the replies guys!

If I wasn't so busy with my last semester of school, I'd have been quicker to reply.

Unfortunately, the models are already made and on their way to being painted. My store requires painted models for any event where prizes are being offered, and the league counts.

However, in pennance for having a terrible list, here are some pictures of the unpainted models. There's been some basing done, and a few small greenstuff sculpts that were done after these pictures, but this should give you a general idea.


Youngblood B


Youngblood A


Champion B


Champion A


Swordsman 2


Swordsman 1


Captain Ritter


Sorry for the poor lighting! Will backlight next time for better results. Still setting up my new workbench.
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Grimscull
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Fri 18 Oct 2013 - 7:31

Where are the heads of Youngblood B and Captain Ritter from? Minis turned out nice so far. Of course, there isn't much sense in giving advice if your minis are already assembled and are supposed to be WYSIWYG. I can only tell you that you cannot use halberd and shield at the same time and that pistols on a S4-model are really a waste. What you could still do is declare the model with the twohanded weapon to be a Youngblood and the guy with the two pistols to be a henchman. Mr Halberd and one of the swordsmen could be promoted to sergeants.
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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Fri 18 Oct 2013 - 14:32

Grimscull wrote:
Quote :
Youngblood: Brace of Pistols = 45
Youngblood: Brace of Pistols = 45
I wouldn't do that. Two strength 4 attacks are nice, but also very expensive. Youngbloods are WS 2 only, so will probably hit on 5s.
At the start of the campaign I can't think of a single model with WS 5+ that isn't Dramatis Personae [without going into the unofficial/ experimental warbands- I never use those so don't readily know what they can do]. Every single person for the first game (or two, or three) should be hit on 4s by a Youngblood, so I don't understand why this is a bad strategy. The added bonus of having two S4 attacks for aiming at downed opponents also seems better than the more mundane weapons like a hammer and sword. I agree that if you want them to survive then a sword and buckler are best to make the most of the (often easier than normal) parrying chances.


Quote :
Unfortunately, the models are already made and on their way to being painted
Haha, I have to agree that it's a bit strange to ask for advice on a list if you've already got it 'set in stone', so to speak :p

I would also echo the point that having more weapon variety will make your games more fun, and teach you more overall than using the list I made- that was more for the 'optimum' performance/ fluff ratio that I could think of. Although it has made me want to go back and make a Middenheimer list again... it's been several editions since I ran them myself.

The models look good and flavourful. I'm not a big fan of the body you gave to the guy with two pistols, but I've had a dislike of that particular trench-coat body since I first started playing with the Merc kit about 10 years ago (or maybe more...) :p

The rest look cool, and I like the bandaged Swordsman's head Smile

Anyway, be sure to let us know how you get on Smile
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Mon 21 Oct 2013 - 2:46

In response to the feedback (and in finding out that the league starts on the 28th rather than last saturday), I've decided to make some changes.

-I'm going to remove the halberd from Youngblood B and give him a 2-handed weapon.  He will probably retain the shield for the 6+ save against missile weapons.  A new model will be made.  

-I'm going to remove the light armor from Champion A.  He will retain the shield.  A new model will be made, the current model will be saved for when I eventually upgrade to heavy armor.

-I may downgrade Champion B's Dueling Pistol Brace to a regular Pistol Brace.  I would then use these points to give Champ B a 2-handed weapon for backup.    

I'm freeing up 40 gold. Should I be allocating these differently?

For those who asked, the heads on Youngblood B and Captain Ritter are from the Forgeworld Cadian upgrade kits (either shotgun veterans or squad upgrade).  Check out the WIP forum for painted pics!
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Major Sharpe
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Mon 21 Oct 2013 - 17:44

Alright, here's the new list.

Heroes

Middenheim (+1 S to all models)

Captain: 125 GC
+Heavy Armor, Sword, Shield

Champion A: 55 GC
+Shield, 2 Handed Sword

Champion B: 85 GC
+Brace of Dueling Pistols

Youngblood A: 35GC
+Bow, Sword

Youngblood B: 30GC
+Great Weapon OR Sword and Buckler

Henchmen

-2x Swordsmen: 100GC
+Sword & Buckler

-2x Marksman: 70GC
+Bow

Total: 500GC

Major changes: removing the armor on Champ A, changing the weapons on Youngblood B, and replacing the XBow Marksman with two(2) Bow equipped Marksmen.

Not sure if the YB should get a great weapon or Sword and Buckler. Decided to keep the duelling pistols on Champ B. If all goes well he should be able to stay out of combat and fire his pistols at 10". He'll be paired with 2 CC characters or maybe the captain, in the hopes that they can intercept charges for him.
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Tue 22 Oct 2013 - 4:43

Imo. pistols are a close combat weapon until you get some skills and some BS, and if not, they should be on the one with most BS - i.e. the Captain. A Champion with BS3 will hit mostly on 5s or 6s anyway with Duelling Pistols at range - they'd hit on 3+ or maybe even 2+ in close combat with your current WS.
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Fri 25 Oct 2013 - 2:52

Okay, final list. I'm aware some choices aren't fully optimal such as pistols on the champion and armor on the captain, but I'm not going full power gamer. I want characterful models that I'm going to enjoy painting and playing with. There's still one choice up in the air for this list. That's whether Youself Malinowski get's a buckler or an axe. This will ultimately be decided by which looks better on his model as is (which is currently painted)

Heroes

Middenheim (+1 S to all models)

Jahn Ritter of Daystar (Captain): 105 GC
+Light Armor, Shield, Sword, Bow

Simon Marquis (Champion): 50 GC
+Greatsword

Pirate Pat the Pistol Premier (Champion): 60 GC
+Brace of Dueling Pistols

Yousef Malinowski (Youngblood): 40GC
+Bow, Sword, Buckler (or Axe)

Lukas Voelzman: 30GC
+Great Weapon

Henchmen

-The Carls - Gustav Karlson & Carl Ulrike (2x Swordsmen): 100GC
+Sword & Buckler

-3x Marksman: 114GC
+Bow, Maces

Total: 499GC (1GC in the bank)

Final C&C and tips on playstyle welcome.

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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Fri 25 Oct 2013 - 4:52

It looks good, and since you want it varied and not power-gamey then it should fit the bill nicely and give you lots of options.

One thing to remember (it was mentioned above but you repeated the mistake in your last post) is that the Middehnheim bonus is not +1 Strength to all models- only to the Captain and the two Champions.

Apart from that, have fun with it.
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Sun 27 Oct 2013 - 21:25

Alrighty. Went to opening day, and played two games. One 'Street Fight!' scenario which I won, and a 'Skirmish' in which I routed.

Some findings:

1. I really really enjoy Mordheim. I've been out of tabletop gaming for a while (mostly just do the hobby side of things), and it felt great to just be in the company of other wretched nerds like myself.

2. The more models with missile weapons the better. The backup bows were clutch in the first game. 24" is pretty long range on a 4'x4' board. Though modifiers meant they were most often hitting on a 6+, even with average rolling, that added up to 3 wounds over the course of an 8 turn game.

3. Having a bow does not make the model an archer. The Skirmish scenario was played against a Marienburg warband with 12 models (many of whom had armor). The game descended into a huge moshpit at the center of the board. Though I took out the enemy captain and a few warriors, my warband was ultimately routed with heavy losses.

During all this, my three archers and bow-equipped youngblood were had set up shop in some 2nd story windows, where the accomplished exactly nothing the whole game. At BS3 with normal bows, these guys need to get closer to the action in the future. Had they been in a position to join the moshpit with their double hand weapons, the game could have been won.


Since this first night was just an introduction for new players, it will not factor into league play. I'm thinking about changing the list to make it more competitive without losing its spirit.

In this light, I do have one rules question: If I have a S4 model attacking with a dagger, what save does his opponent receive? My interpretation of the rules would say that he gets no save, but I want to make sure that's correct.
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PostSubject: Re: First Warband List   Mon 28 Oct 2013 - 0:08

If I'm not totally mistaken he gets no save, cause his 6+AS is negated by your S4.

The Ultra-Mega Bob wrote:
At the start of the campaign I can't think of a single model with WS 5+ that isn't Dramatis Personae [without going into the unofficial/ experimental warbands- I never use those so don't readily know what they can do]. Every single person for the first game (or two, or three) should be hit on 4s by a Youngblood, so I don't understand why this is a bad strategy. The added bonus of having two S4 attacks for aiming at downed opponents also seems better than the more mundane weapons like a hammer and sword.
You might actually be right with this one, I will concider using a YB with one pistol in my next game.
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