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 About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).

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Goglutin
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PostSubject: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Sat 13 Jul 2013 - 16:53

Well,

Now I have two warbands with wagons and its a matter of time before I bring them on the table.

I just read the rules and they are ''complex''. They also seem inefficient and rather incomplete.

Can you trample with a wagon?
Can you go through your own units (unless its out of control of course)?
When does a wagon is captured by enemy warbands?


Have you seen a better ''ruleset'' for wagon? Something maybe less ''heavily/complex'' ruled...


Thx
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Sun 14 Jul 2013 - 23:53

Quote :
Can you trample with a wagon?
They don't call it 'trample', but you can run over things. See the rules for 'Collisions'.

Quote :
Can you go through your own units (unless its out of control of course)?
Not the way I read the rules for collisions. We do not allow models to move through friendly models at any time in our games anyway, so this is not a question that comes up for us.

Quote :
When does a wagon is captured by enemy warbands?
Isn't this covered by the Merchant Caravan rules?
Otherwise we consider the wagon captured if it is unattended and an enemy model moves on to it.

Quote :
Have you seen a better ''ruleset'' for wagon? Something maybe less ''heavily/complex'' ruled...
How simple do you want to go? Legends of the Old West (a Warhammer Historical publication that combines Mordheim rules with Lord of the Rings rules) makes the wagon and horses a single model with a single profile, sort of like the changes of Warhammer 6th edition from 5th edition rules (which were similar to Mordheim although also simpler).
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 0:12

Wagons are an area that I had planned to tackle after my article consolidating and expanding the rules for fire. I love the concept of wagons but the rules seem to be worse than the rules for mounts. I never got anywhere with those rules though.

I am a bit tougher on when a wagon can be captured due to the expense of wagons (and how they already are a major liability IMO). For example, VK implies that a wagon is captured in his group if an enemy warrior simply moves into an unattended wagon even if that warrior then leaves the wagon as long as the owning warband never returns to the wagon. For me I consider a wagon captured only if:
1) the owning warband routs,
2) an enemy warrior is in the wagon, and
3) there are no friendly warriors in the wagon.
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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 3:59

Von Kurst : Thx for your answers. I'd like to take a look at those rules your talking about... Considering the wagon as a single ''unit'' is surely the best way to make things more simple.

Lemming: I like your idea for the restriction about capturing a wagon... after all they are VERY expensives, non-combatants and not so tough if you take wheels off... And for the Merchant caravan it also mean the death of the warband.
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werekin
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 15:32

The wagon rules are originally from Empire in Flames supplement. There are mixed feelings about them. Personally I really like them as they can prove to be great fun. There are some extras included in BTB in order to support the Merchants Caravan in their objective plus the Chaos Dwarfs in their despicable ambitions. I like the detail. I also love the fact that it's all fan-produced contributions based on campaigns being run over the years.

Cianty was (once upon a time) set on delivering fresh rules for using carts in games to transport goods. Whilst no such guidelines have materialised, I did get the ball rolling (or wheels turning) by establishing some useful 'pointers' in my reinterpretation of BTB's trading rules. Here is a link to the updated version from my Dropbox account. Revisions of my previous PDF articles and new stuff to tinker with can and likely will be appearing on Liber Malefic now that I have listened to Cianty's advice about using Dropbox. Wink

If you want to concentrate more on vehicles in games then maybe try Gorka Morka! Alternatively wait another couple of years for me to flesh out my shipwright rules for the Marketplace, then you'll be able to upgrade your wagon or riverboat in the post battle sequence, instead of doing more sensible stuff. Razz

If you want to simplify the use of wagons then just use them as static terrain and ignore all of the rules and everything you've read here! Shocked

Regards,

Stuart
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 17:57

Legends of the Old West is OoP so there might be an on-line source of the rules similar to Specialist Games, but I don't know of it. The review below might help:

http://deepfriedhappymice.com/html/rd_legends_of_the_old_west.html

Basically the rules give the vehicle, driver and horses one profile. So you lose the possibility of having your horses killed. The passengers may be shot at individually, but gain cover from the wagon (stagecoach).
The wagon loses speed as it gains damage. Combat between the wagon and anyone charging it is worked out similarly to the EiF rules, including leaping on to the wagon or horses.
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 0:56

Yeah, the rules are a mess. And stu is right - I did plan on simply rewriting them to make them... um... playable. Actually, I most likely will. Just not for Mordheim but for Gierburg.

While it does take time to really delve into the rules and even later on you will most likely be constantly referring back to the rules and looking up things, I do think it is really worth adding wagons to your mordheim games.

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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 1:23

Agree the layouting in unreasonably messy. Reordering the material, breaking down the unwieldy large blocks of text, along with more labelling of paragraphed sections with keywords would go a long way towards making wagons more accesable to first time campaigners and rusty veterans alike.

If it all seems like too much effort then get a camel, but you'll be missing out on the fun of customising your own set of wheels.
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 10:05

werekin wrote:
Agree the layouting in unreasonably messy. Reordering the material, breaking down the unwieldy large blocks of text, along with more labelling of paragraphed sections with keywords would go a long way towards making wagons more accesable to first time campaigners and rusty veterans alike.

If it all seems like too much effort then get a camel, but you'll be missing out on the fun of customising your own set of wheels.

Very true.

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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Wed 17 Jul 2013 - 22:31

Treasure Carts--can hold up to 5 rare items? What is the point of this restriction? My warrior can carry an infinite number upon his person as long as he avoids restrictions on multiples of one type or another.
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Thu 18 Jul 2013 - 11:04

It means a cart is not as useful as a wagon for improving search rolls. A merchant with a wagon attracts more interest than a cart peddler! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Thu 18 Jul 2013 - 15:59

It is my understanding that the Treasure Carts are used for selling items / slaves between warbands rather than as something useful in a battle.
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Thu 18 Jul 2013 - 16:10

True indeed. Buying one attracts enough attention for a trader to do a bit of business. Carts like wagon can also be handy in certain scenarios in terms of the cover they provide! Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: About wagons again (trade caravan & chaos dwarves).   Thu 18 Jul 2013 - 17:48

And for hiding Artefacts!
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