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 Charging into occupied space

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Aipha
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PostSubject: Charging into occupied space   Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 1:22

We got a small problem in our gaming group concerning positioning of warriors when charging into a position, which is already occupied. Usually it's when the opponent has a higher position.

Example:
We're playing defend the find, and my opponent has positioned all his warriors up the wall that I'm about to climb over. I'd like to make a charge with all my avaliable warriors, and here comes the trouble. To charge some of them, I have to 'jump over' them, and position my warriors with my opponent between the wall and me, since he's occupying the space near the wall. 

It looks like this (the wall is the line):

XXXXXX


Then I charge, and have to position my warriors like this:

OOOOO
XXXXXX


Let's say he wanted to have me near the wall instead of him - would that be possible for him to do when I'm charging? I know I can't move his warriors at least.

In general I think we've houseruled most of it - including this, but is there some official ruling or some good advice on how to solve this out there? Along with other 'positioning when charging rules'

Help much appreciated!
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Coppermind
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PostSubject: Re: Charging into occupied space   Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 3:29

Hmm, to understand the example right:

Is the defender standing on the wall or behind the wall?

In the first case you can't charge, because you have to climb, which prevents any charge moves (If you house-ruled climbing charges, then consider the last paragraph).
Otherwise I assume, you are already standing on the wall and want to charge the opponents below. There you may make a diving charge and place your warriors behind the enemy (the target must be in 2" of your landing point, so it might be possible).


Generally you aren't allowed to jump over models to place your own on the other side. If a model can't be placed somewhere, it simply can't move to that position.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Charging into occupied space   Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 5:53

Coppermind wrote:
In the first case you can't charge, because you have to climb, which prevents any charge moves (If you house-ruled climbing charges, then consider the last paragraph).
Disagree.

Mordheim Annual 2002 wrote:
Q: Can you really climb up the wall and then charge someone? We made a house rule that you can't, but is there something official?
A: You can, as otherwise buildings would be too good positions.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging into occupied space   Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 6:10

Ah ok, I only have the core rules available at work.^^ Thanks for the clarification. Smile
But that doesn't make much difference - when you place all models in buildings at the edge, you can't be charged either, because you would have to place the chargers in the air.


Edit: While searching for that errata, I only found this in the Mordheim Group on Yahoo, is that right? Seems to be as non-official as an ordinary house rule to me. Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Charging into occupied space   Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 7:36

Hm. Mordheim Annual 2002 was compilation of Town Cryer articles such as warbands, scenarios, items etc + FAQ section (that's where I got it) and more. It is official when it comes to question that have no answer in latest errata or rulebook and of course both override annual considering rules freshness.Very Happy
As for charging models in the building I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (Town Cryer can't recall issue number) that when such situation occurs, player who's models are charged must make room for charges. I think it's quite logical since when defending a building (with climbing being the only option) defending player, by placing models on the edge makes in fact any hth impossible and only way to eliminate defenders is by shooting them.
Resume: If I place all my models on the edge you cannot charge me and yif ou have no shooting warriors, you're shagged.Doesn't sound right to me.scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Charging into occupied space   Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 8:00

Ok, I see - always skipped the last part of the annual. So it's officially possible and I learned something new. Smile

I understand your point for gaming purposes, but always worried about a fluffwise explanation. When I am standing at the edge of a ruin's first floor, holding a deadly weapon and directly below me an enemey climbs up the wall: why shouldn't I simply kill him or kick him back down, when he tries to get on my floor, being completely helpless while climbing (besides some Skaven, Mutants or similiar). We just agreed in our group to simply avoid this kind of full fortification but deny charges, when you can't place the model.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging into occupied space   Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 5:23

Our group house-ruled it with a very simple change; we use these steps:

- The model climbing fights in hand to hand with the defender in a one-on-one combat (preventing three defenders being in combat with one climber, as buildings would still be too good a defensive position)

- The attacker is left positioned at the bottom of the ladder/ wall/ building until the attacker wins the combat; if he wins and there is space adjacent to his (now knocked down/ stunned) opponent he can move up the wall into the adjacent space. If he took his opponent OOA he can take the opponent's place. If he doesn't KD/ Stun/ OOA the opponent he must remain at the bottom of the wall, ladder or stairs until he does KD/ Stun/ OOA the other person in subsequent combat turns.

- If you're using a ladder or staircase as the entry point, only one attacker can attempt to enter at a time; they effectively queue up, as they have to wait for the person in front of them to make space (by killing enemies or being knocked down)

------------

To me this makes sense. As a fan of historical fiction I've read about/ watched many seiges and people are always able to attack from ladders whilst they're trying to breach the walls. It might not be easy (maybe you'd want to add a house rule for attacking over a defended obstacle? I'd also say that you couldn't use double-handed weapons whilst doing this as one hand has to be holding something...) and it might get a bit messy taking random, unaimed swipes at the opponent, but it's certainly doable.
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