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 Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald

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DicLombardi
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PostSubject: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Wed 19 Jun 2013 - 23:11

Hey guys, we were just wondering how the Trickster priests Cat Friend Mark works? if one enemy kept trying to charge the priest would the cat just keep intercepting? it says in the enemies next turn they no longer count as in combat, does that mean in the priests turn the cat stays with enemy whilst the Priest may move away? what happens when the cat breaks from combat does it stay put or imediatly return to the priest? My friends say its a one time use like caltrops but I interprete it as making the preist immune to charging from 1 enemy at a time. they think thats too powerful but i say just shoot him or charge him with two people.

Cat Friend:
Those favoured by the God of
Good Fortune may attract a cat companion.

The Priest can gain this mark multiple times.

Each time, the Priest gains an additional cat.

Cats cannot attack or be attacked but they

must be represented by an appropriate

model because they can be used to intercept

a charge made against the Priest. When a cat

intercepts, the charging model is treated as

having entered into close combat with it. The

interception is completed as normal. No

combat is subsequently fought and during

the charging model's next turn it no longer

counts as being in hand-to-hand combat.
If the Priest is taken
out of action the cat runs
away, returning after the battle. Cats cannot

be attacked or slain, but if the Priest is slain

the cats are lost with him just like any other

equipment.
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 1:38

The rules don't say that the cat is one use only. Similiar to the merchant's bodyguard you get an additional model via skills, but cats may only intercept instead of fighting normally. If a model intercepts successfully, the original target is never in close-combat with the intercepted charger, thus the Priest may move as normal.

If the cat intercepts, no close combat is fought, but it isn't moved away. Remember base-to-base contact is not necessarily the same as being in close combat. So the cat may move as well in its next moving phase.

In my opinion the real problem is another: The cat is a model without characteristics like familiars, but opposing to familiars, the cat's position is very important for the intercepting range of 2". Without a Movement value, it can't be moved and thus will be never able to intercept anything outside your starting zone. So you need to house-rule first, how far cats may move.



Nonetheless I really dislike the Trickster priest by now due to the infinite gold loop if combined with a merchant, which seemed to be fun at first but is far more devastating than some intercepting cats.
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 8:01

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t6832-halfings-and-kislevite-warbands

Quote :
Nonetheless I really dislike the Trickster priest by now due to the infinite gold loop if combined with a merchant, which seemed to be fun at first but is far more devastating than some intercepting cats.

I'm not sure if the above topic will help with the dislike, but my issues with the Trickster and werekin's response are toward the end of this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 8:17

Thank you for that one, we never considered casting the same prayers multiple times per game.^^
Unfortunately the loop is possible with a single casting of Bargain Hunter. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 8:18

I use the trickster priest with my merchants warband, he's a tricky fellow, able to make things common which my thief hired sword would then steal, it worked pretty well early in the campaign making quite rich, but people caught on quick, hiring their own thieves or targeting the priest, making me have to be more picky with what I use my prayer for. It hasn't broken the game yet, it's kinda made the border towns have it's own economy in a way. Also I had all this money and nothing I could buy, carts would raise my rating to high (we say that carts add +50 to your rating) and the others would target me for the under dog bonus they gained. So like in all mordheim everything has its equal and opposite force and nothing is invincible or unbeatable, if you don't want the priest to make things common, take him out early
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 8:52

With the right combination you make one game, cast Bargain Hunter, rout voluntarily after sacrificing some useless men and make as many gold, as you have patience to roll dice. The last time I saw this, it took roughly half an hour of rolling dice for about 1000gc...

With infinite gold & making things common you win Lure of Fortune in less than a handful campaign turns for example. Exiting.^^
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 11:24

There is no Movement characteristic for cat companions. They do not follow the normal rules for interceptions. Instead, they 'suspend' combat for a turn. If the Priest is charged by a 2nd model in the subsequent turn then the cat 'distracts' the new charger. If the Priest is charged by two enemy models in the same round then he has to fight one of the models, unless he has two cats!


Coppermind wrote:
Nonetheless I really dislike the Trickster priest by now due to the infinite gold loop if combined with a merchant, which seemed to be fun at first but is far more devastating than some intercepting cats.

What infinite gold loop?
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 12:02

Thanks for the clarification, werekin. Would it be possible to mention, that the cats don't work by normal interception rules? Like "they can be used to automatically intercept"... Smile


For the loop you need the following:
- Trickster priest with successfully casted Bargain Hunter prayer
- Merchant hired sword
- endurance/patience/boredom

Then you consider this:
- Bargain Hunter may get you common items 33% cheaper
- When selling items, the merchant adds 2D6 gc up to the normal costs
- In the post-game sub-phase #8 there is neither an order for buying and selling nor a maximum, how often you can sell or buy common items

To begin the loop, follow these steps:
1. buy a longbow or other item for 15gc, but pay only 10gc due to Bargain Hunter
2. sell the longbow for 8gc (half the price would be mathematically rounded up, because the rules say nothing about rounding) and add 2D6 gc up to 15gc
3. gain 0-5gc for buying and selling the same item (the chance for getting 5gc is >50%)
4. go back to 1. until you don't want to roll dice anymore


This would be the same as rolling 2D6-2 with a maximum of 5. According on how fast you roll two dice and work this out in your head, you gain a nearly infinite amount of gold with no effort in a ridiculous short time.
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 12:30

It seems like a long boring time to me, but I've never enjoyed rolling dice just to roll dice.  Even for pretend gold.

I'm assuming Bargain Hunter is a Merchant Caravan skill or ability?
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 13:20

Coppermind wrote:
To begin the loop, follow these steps:1. buy a longbow or other item for 15gc, but pay only 10gc due to Bargain Hunter 2. sell the longbow for 8gc (half the price would be mathematically rounded up, because the rules say nothing about rounding) and add 2D6 gc up to 15gc

This seems like cheating to me for 2 reasons:

1. Selling items your warband did not have at the start of the current post battle sequence is highly irregular. Strictly speaking the phases are not ordered to prevent foul play.

Unless buying something to sell/broker to another player, which would seem reasonable, then is suspicious trading practice that would be extremely time consuming. Items sold back to 'the house' ought to be in the warband's possession when the sequence starts.

2. The wording of the Ranaldan prayer Bargain Hunter states "If successfully cast then Common items may be reduced in price by one third of their cost during the next post battle sequence."

This implies that the market value of Common Items has been reduced iin the current post battle sequence as a consequence of the price slash. Therefore the maximum price you can sell a Longbow for is 10 gold crowns in the current post battle sequence. There is no infinite loop.


Regards,

Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 13:25

It's one of the trickster's prayers. So you either need luck, a house rule for picking the first spell or simply the scholar skill from BTB. Smile

We ruled for our next campaign (no human warbands in the current^^), that priest replaces the normal prices with the reduced ones concernig selling items. So that longbow would just give 5gc +2D6 with a maximum of 10gc. Thus you can make some money every other game and no loop is possible. ^^

Edit:
@werekin

1. Time consuming yes, but the rules don't say, you may not sell, what you just bought.

2. The word may is the key, by the wording itsself a successful casted prayer may be switched on and of as you wish. But we ruled the same way. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 14:12

I agree with both points made here. I have adjusted the word may to must, plus added some additional clarification to my source file. Thanks man. Smile

After reviewing the interception rules for the cat companions, it would appear the intention was to treat the actions of the cat friend using the standard rules for interceptions. The cat has no movement value. It is simply deployed with 3" of the Priest at all times in a position of the player's choosing.
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 14:47

You're welcome. Always glad to help on such well made supplements like BTB & Co. Smile

My gaming bud will be pleased to get less suspicious looks, when admitting that he will run a trickster & a merchant in his upcoming warband.^^
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 16:44

Thanks Werekin, so am I right in assuming having a cat protects you from being charged by 1 enemy at a time? Say someone charged the priest the cat jumps out, takes the charge, the rules say (kinda) that the cat is in combat till the chargers next turn, so the priest runs away (providing there's no other enemies around) the enemies next turn, the cat breaks from combat and leaps back into 3 inches of the preist, the attacker attempts to charge again, cat jumps back in the way, rinse and repeat?
Also we're giving burrow town collapsing a go tonight as a "friendly" match outside our campaign using a mates old WH quest tiles should be exciting!
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PostSubject: Re: Miracle Workers - Trickster Priest of Ranald   Sun 23 Jun 2013 - 13:12

Yes, the Hero may retreat unmolested (according to his movement allowance) while the cat makes a nuisance of itself. If there are two chargers then the cat may only distract one of them.
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