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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: High Elves Warband   Mon 6 May 2013 - 22:53

Got a guy joining our group who just looooooves his High Elves, and hates the idea of having to play as Shadow Warriors... which I totally understand, as I hate it when anyone plays as Shadow Warriors. So that along with a couple guys getting giddy about the new High Elves army book, lead me to start writing up a High Elf warband that is kind of in the vein of Human Mercenaries.

I'll be the first to say that I've never played a High Elves army and have only the kind of knowledge of their fluff that comes with playing warhammer for a long time, and am probably far from the most qualified person to be writing such a warband, but unfortunately, thats kind of my role in our group. So more so than ever, criticism is appreciated.

(Worth noting that my group plays with half price armor, hence the low armor costs.)

_____________________________

High Elves

A High Elf warband starts with 500gc. Minimum of 3 members. Maximum of 12.

Conscripts: No additional rules or costs.
Chracians: +1 Str and access to Strength skills for the Low Noble and Champions. +5gc cost for Low Noble and Champions.
Hoethians: +1 WS for the Low Noble and Champions, and +1 to casting rolls for Lesser Mages. +5gc cost for Heroes.
Lothernians: +1 to hit with ranged weapons and half priced bow type weapons at creation for Heroes. +5gc cost for Heroes.
Caledorians: Low Nobles Leader ability increased 6" and half priced armor for Heroes at creation. +5gc cost for Captain.

High Elf Maximum Profile:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 7 6 4 3 3 8 4 10

Special Rules:

Excellent Sight: All elves can spot hidden enemies from twice the normal distance.
Distaste for poison: Can not use poison.
Certain… exceptions must be made: May hire any Hired Sword that is not Chaotic, evil-bent, or uses poison.
A Long, Long Life: Even if one in particular may appear young, due to their extreme longevity, its practically impossible for an outsider to tell how old an elf actually is. An elf will see many generations of man come and go before they leave what their people consider adolescence. A side effect of their long lives is that elves tend to accumulate new skills at a rate that would be considered slow when compared to members of a race with a briefer existence. If a henchman in a High Elf warband becomes a Hero through a roll of "The Lads Got Talent", he also gains +8 experience, though does not gain any advancements for this.


High Elves equipment list

Close Combat

Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Staff (Lesser Mage only) - 3gc
Axe (Chracians only) - 5gc
Sword - 10gc
Spear - 10gc
Halberd - 10gc
Elvish Greatsword* - 35gc
Elvish Greataxe* - 30gc
Ithilmar Weapon* - cost x2

Ranged

Bow - 10gc
Long Bow - 15gc
Elven Bow* - 35gc

Armor

Shield - 5gc
Helmet - 10gc
Light Armor - 10gc
Heavy Armor (Caledorians only)* - 25gc
Ithilmar Armor* - 40gc

Misc.

Elven Cloak* - 75gc
Elven Boats* - 75gc
Lion Cloak (Counts as Wolf Cloak. Chracians only)* - 10gc
Elven Runestones* - 50gc

*Heroes only. Special prices apply at creation only.

Low Nobles start with 28 experience, and may choose from Combat, Speed, Shooting, Academic, and Special Skills
Champions start with 15 experience, and may choose from Combat, Speed, Shooting, and Special Skills
Lesser Mages start with 15 experience, and may choose from Combat, Speed, Academic, and Special Skills

Heroes:

1 Low Noble - 80gc to hire

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 5 3 3 1 6 1 9

Weapons/Armor: Low Nobles may choose their equipment from the High Elves equipment list.

Special Rules:
Leader: Any warband member within 6" of the Low Noble may use his leadership.

0-2 Champions - 55gc to hire

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8

Weapons/Armor: Champions may choose their equipment from the High Elves equipment list.

0-1 Lesser Mage - 45gc to hire

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 3 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armor: Lesser Mages may choose their equipment from the High Elves equipment list.

Special Rules:
Wizard: The Lesser Mage is a wizard and may use spells from the High Magic list.

_________________________________________________

Henchmen

0+ Warriors - 40gc to hire

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armor: Warriors may choose their equipment from the High Elves equipment list.

0+ Novice Warriors - 30gc to hire

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 3 3 3 1 4 1 7

Weapons/Armor: Novice Warriors may choose their equipment from the High Elves equipment list.

High Elves Special Skills:

Master of Runes, Sniper, and Powerful Build as per Shadow Walkers Special Skills
Student: The elf gains access to Academic skills.
Fleet Footed: The elf may move an additional D6 inches in the shooting phase instead of shooting.

Special Equipment:

Elvish Greatsword:
Range: Close Combat. Str: +2 Special Rules: 2-Handed: An Elvish Greatsword requires both hands to use. Parry: As per sword "parry" rule. 55gc, rare 12

Elvish Greataxe:
Range: Close Combat. Str: +2 Special Rules: 2: Handed: An Elvish Greataxe requires both hands to use. Cutting Edge: As per axe "cutting edge" rule. 50gc, rare 12.

High Magic:

1. Drain Magic: Difficulty 7. May be cast on an enemy wizard, in line of sight, within 24". Until the casters next turn, any rolls of 5+ that the enemy wizard makes when attempting to cast a spell are discarded.
2. Walk Between Worlds: Difficulty 5. The caster becomes "ethereal". He can only be hit by magical weapons, and can move through walls and other terrain, though he can not see through them. He is effected by spells as normal. Lasts until the start of the casters next shooting phase.
3. Curse of Arrow Attraction: Difficulty 6. May be cast on any enemy, in line of sight, within 24". Any missile fire directed at that enemy may re-roll any failed rolls to hit. Lasts until the start of the casters next turn.
4. Ward of Ulthuan: Difficulty 7. The Lesser Mage may be cast on himself or any fellow warband member within 12". The target receives an unmodifiable 5+ save until the start of the casters next turn.
5. Fury of Khaine: Difficulty 9. May be cast on an enemy, in line of sight, within 18". If successfully cast, the target is hit with D3+1 S4 hits.
6. Blade of the Phoenix: Difficulty 10. May be cast on the Wizard or a member of his warband within 6". The target gains +1 attack, +2 Strength, and +2 Weapon skill. The wizard takes a leadership test at the start of his own turn. If he fails the test, the blade disappears.



Last edited by whiskeytango on Tue 7 May 2013 - 15:02; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Mon 6 May 2013 - 23:24

I like where you're going with this. This is going to be a pretty high-rated warband to start off, but it certainly is starting in the right direction, I think. Have you not decided yet on a cost for the Novices? I'd think around 30 gold each would be about right

I also like the idea of the LGT rolls, but in order to avoid confusion, I'd re-write the rule to say "Add 8 XP to a newly-promoted LGT hero" or something along those lines.
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Mon 6 May 2013 - 23:43

whoops, didn't even notice i didn't price the novice. 30gc does sound good. I've got no idea what the writer of the Shadow Warriors list was smoking when they priced them at 25gc, but to be fair, you could say that about literally any of the costs for that list.

Not to toot my own horn, but i'm glad you like the new TLGT rule for them, as i especially like it, though i had a hard time deciding on the final amount of automatic experience they gain. I went with 8 since its where the required amount of exp till the next advance jumps from 2 to 3. I almost went with 20, but that seemed like it might be a little too harsh.

Any thoughts on the magic list? Magic is definitely my weakest area when it comes to writing rules.
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 5:03

First of all, I really that you can pick where your elves come from and thus gain the additional benefits. It's hard to balance, but it gives the warband more history automatically. And you've done a great job balancing it imo.

Secondly - wow, that's a lot of XP. I get the idea, and it seems realistic compared to Humans, but I must say that it's possible to balance without adding that much XP - atleast that's my experience with the Druchii warband. Also with the XP thing - newly promoted Henchmen start with their XP and increases, so a Henchman getting promoted with 5 XP will still retain that :-)

Thirdly, can all buy the Elvish Greataxe? Or is it reserved for Chracians?

Oh, and by the way, concerning the maximum profile; why is it lower than the Elves in the rulebook? One less BS, T and I. The 1 less Toughness is really a gimper!

Anyway, the last thing is the 'Walk Between Worlds' spell. Imo it should last until the caster's next shooting phase, otherwise you would never be able to walk with it :-P also, it's pretty OP - he can fight normally himself, but cannot be hit. He shouldn't be able to fight himself atleast ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 7:41

Based on High Elf fluff (and with that I mean only based on high elf fluff) I'd suggest that novice warriors may only be armed with ranged weapons when bought, and can only buy other equipment after their first kill. This is because in High Elf armies, every elf must serve as an archer in his first battle before becoming a spearman.
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 9:30

Lots of cool ideas here.

Things that need a second look though include the massive experience bump compared to other warbands. Vampires, Possessed and Dwarfs would need to be modified as well to fit the new template. Orcs are the only official warband that sort of fit with the concept. [Why were orcs singled out? Curse you Mr. Havener.]

The sniper skill was modified in an FAQ, was the warband ever published with the modification? Otherwise the sniper skill as written in my TC copy of the warband is broke. So typing out how you want the skill to read would help.

The Long Life special rule. LGTs as noted above retain any experience earned, they don't reset upon becoming a hero. The wording needs modification.

Spells.

Walk between Worlds is too easy to cast for such a powerful effect while the sword spell is incredibly difficult compared to the Lesser Magic Spell with basically the same effect. Fury of Khaine seems too powerful. D3+1 maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 12:31

Quote :
Got a guy joining our group who just looooooves his High Elves, and hates the idea of having to play as Shadow Warriors... which I totally understand, as I hate it when anyone plays as Shadow Warriors.
Just wondering...Why do you (and friend of yours) hate shadow warriors? scratch
Warband rules aside, your list will be on backfoot on the longer run (campaign) with starting experience you gave them. They are not so uber to have major drawback like this.
Besides, if you really have to make exping for he difficlut change the name of the "long lives" cause it doesn't make sense. First, elves are not retarded and they learn normally, which in fact is further amplified by their long livespan to the great edffect. They are superior to humans in almost every way. That's why they have one of best mages and warriors in the wh world. Second: this rule applies to henchmen, where one group is called "novices". Conclusion is that young elf lives so long, that he will not learn fast?
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 14:42

catachanfrog wrote:
Quote :
Got a guy joining our group who just looooooves his High Elves, and hates the idea of having to play as Shadow Warriors... which I totally understand, as I hate it when anyone plays as Shadow Warriors.
Just wondering...Why do you (and friend of yours) hate shadow warriors? scratch
Warband rules aside, your list will be on backfoot on the longer run (campaign) with starting experience you gave them. They are not so uber to have major drawback like this.
Besides, if you really have to make exping for he difficlut change the name of the "long lives" cause it doesn't make sense. First, elves are not retarded and they learn normally, which in fact is further amplified by their long livespan to the great edffect. They are superior to humans in almost every way. That's why they have one of best mages and warriors in the wh world. Second: this rule applies to henchmen, where one group is called "novices". Conclusion is that young elf lives so long, that he will not learn fast?

Well, i hate Shadow Warriors because of how severely undercosted they are. Given, what seems to be the generally accepted rule, that each stat increase should add +5gc to the starting cost, a Shadow Master should cost 85gc, minimum. Instead he clocks in at 70gc, making him a slim 10gc more than a mercenary captain, while having 5 stats that trump the Mercs. Or an even harsher comparison being that their basic henchmen type has better stats than that same Merc Captain, for 25gc less. To be fair, these elves would be considered undercosted given that gauge too, but there was concern that with their high hiring costs coupled with their lack of cheap weapons would put their numbers so low at creation that they wouldn't stand a chance.

My buddy doesn't like them because he just isn't a fan of Shadow Warriors.

As far as the TLGT rule, its not that they're "retarded", as you so delicately put it, but that in nature, creatures that live naturally long lives accomplish less in a given amount of time than creatures with naturally short lives accomplish in that same amount of time. Theres even basis for this in Warhammer fluff, when they talk about Skaven for example, who have short life spans but become proficient fighters much faster than humans.

Von Kurst wrote:
Lots of cool ideas here.

Things that need a second look though include the massive experience bump compared to other warbands. Vampires, Possessed and Dwarfs would need to be modified as well to fit the new template. Orcs are the only official warband that sort of fit with the concept. [Why were orcs singled out? Curse you Mr. Havener.]

The sniper skill was modified in an FAQ, was the warband ever published with the modification? Otherwise the sniper skill as written in my TC copy of the warband is broke. So typing out how you want the skill to read would help.

The Long Life special rule. LGTs as noted above retain any experience earned, they don't reset upon becoming a hero. The wording needs modification.

Spells.

Walk between Worlds is too easy to cast for such a powerful effect while the sword spell is incredibly difficult compared to the Lesser Magic Spell with basically the same effect. Fury of Khaine seems too powerful. D3+1 maybe?

Thanks VK.

I agree that the experience bump might be a bit too extreme. I think the point probably could have been made with the Noble having 28exp and the other two at 15exp, instead of the much harsher 36 and 20 respectively. .

Good call on the sniper skill. I do mean for it to be the FAQd version, for the record.

Also good point on the LGT thing, not sure what i was thinking when i worded it that way.

With the WBW spell, do you think it'd be evened out if the wizard was unable to attack while ethereal? I feel like thats the only thing making it all that powerful. Otherwise its just a personal defense spell.

I upped the difficulty for the Lesser Magic weapon spell since with this version it can be cast on someone else, and it seemed like being able to pass that ability onto, say the Low Noble, for example, made it more dangerous.

D3+1 sounds much more reasonably than the D6 for Fury of Khaine. Good call.

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
Based on High Elf fluff (and with that I mean only based on high elf fluff) I'd suggest that novice warriors may only be armed with ranged weapons when bought, and can only buy other equipment after their first kill. This is because in High Elf armies, every elf must serve as an archer in his first battle before becoming a spearman.

Fluffy as that may be, and i do enjoy fluffiness, this warband is already restricted by costs enough that i'd hate to restrict that farther.

Aipha wrote:
First of all, I really that you can pick where your elves come from and thus gain the additional benefits. It's hard to balance, but it gives the warband more history automatically. And you've done a great job balancing it imo.

Secondly - wow, that's a lot of XP. I get the idea, and it seems realistic compared to Humans, but I must say that it's possible to balance without adding that much XP - atleast that's my experience with the Druchii warband. Also with the XP thing - newly promoted Henchmen start with their XP and increases, so a Henchman getting promoted with 5 XP will still retain that :-)

Thirdly, can all buy the Elvish Greataxe? Or is it reserved for Chracians?

Oh, and by the way, concerning the maximum profile; why is it lower than the Elves in the rulebook? One less BS, T and I. The 1 less Toughness is really a gimper!

Anyway, the last thing is the 'Walk Between Worlds' spell. Imo it should last until the caster's next shooting phase, otherwise you would never be able to walk with it :-P also, it's pretty OP - he can fight normally himself, but cannot be hit. He shouldn't be able to fight himself atleast ^_^

Thanks Alpha. With two people lamenting the exp. increase, i think i'll definitely be decreasing it.

All Elves can buy a Greataxe, but normal axes are restricted to Chracians. I'm really just basing that on how there are several HE minis that come with a greataxe option, but the only one, that i can think of at least, that has a normal hand axe is Korhil.

About the max. profile, in my group we generally try to keep up to date with their parallels in WHFB, so we use the current max. profiles instead of the ones in the mordheim rulebook.

Also, good call on WBW lasting until the next shooting phase.

EDIT: updated the original post with some of the suggested changes. Also added the max. roster amount, which i forgot the first time around.
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 15:24

Quote :
As far as the TLGT rule, its not that they're "retarded", as you so delicately put it, but that in nature, creatures that live naturally long lives accomplish less in a given amount of time than creatures with naturally short lives accomplish in that same amount of time. Theres even basis for this in Warhammer fluff, when they talk about Skaven for example, who have short life spans but become proficient fighters much faster than humans.
I meant no disrespect or intended no offence. When talking about skaven it is natural, considering their "social" theme of constant backstabbing, infighting and hunting for anything to eat, besides they are born with natural weapons.
I don't think that elf fighting day to day for his live would learn survival/fighting skills slower than human or any other creature. It's not the same as sword master siitting in the White Tower learning his craft for decades/ centuries and then testing them in real combat.
As for warbands and stats there are statistics and STATISTICS. Some are merely useful (such as LD or WS) and some are very powerful (T, S, A). Shadow elves have high stats, true, but as you said they are very expensive with limited and certainly not cheap equipment. I figured out that they are very good against smaller to medium (up to 10) warbands with T3 and getting much worse against T4 warbands, especially orcs who are not only "horde" warband but with T4 as majority. You cannot shoot them to efect and you'll always be outnumered several to one.
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PostSubject: Re: High Elves Warband   Tue 7 May 2013 - 17:33

I think i may have come off as more disgruntled than i meant to. I understand what you're saying, though i disagree that its necessarily the case.

Really what this comes down to is that an Elven warband HAS to have stats like they have or else it doesn't feel like you're playing as elves. In order to have those stats, they've gotta pay for them somehow, and in my opinion, paying for them all with GC is out of the question. If all their members cost what their stats say they should, then the warband would be so prohibitively expensive that i'm 90% sure they'd be unplayable. So since you can't have it all come out of the coffer, they have to pay for it by having some other disadvantage. We felt like slower experience growth was an appropriate disadvantage for them to have without literally paying for it.
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