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 Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons

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Aipha
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PostSubject: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Fri 19 Apr 2013 - 6:06

Alright, here goes.

In the magic system of Mordheim we have several spells, who can enhance the caster or weapon, or summon something for the caster. I have collected most of these, and written them down shortly here:

Clubba: +2S, 1A, disappears when he suffers a wound – summoned club
Sword of Rezhebel: +1A, +2S, +2WS, leadership test – summoned sword
Silver Arrows of Arha: D6+2 arrows, S3, 24”, caster’s BS – summoned arrows
Gnawdoom: 2D6 S1 hits, 8” – summoned rats
Black Fury: May charge 12”, +2A, +1S this round – enhances caster
Tinci’s Rage: Cast on friendly warrior within 6”, +1S & Frenzy, disappears when caster gets K.O. or stunned or when he fails a leadership test, at the beginning of his turn – enhances warrior/caster
Black Blade of Khaine: Cast on weapon within 6”, +2S to a weapon & ignores AS – enhances weapon

In my opinion, these can all assist giving a critical hit, except for Gnawdoom (which should work like Fires of U'Zuhl for instance, or any other summon weird thing spell - only reason I took this in, is that you don't summon a magic ball, you summon real live creatures, who can usually do unarmed crits), since you can only crit in hand-to-hand or shooting.
This should also ask the question: Can the Silver Arrows of Arha crit? They need to be able to hit, because they're dependant on BS, indicating that they belong in the shooting category and thus should be able to crit as other arrows/bolts/etc.

Besides these and the question about critting, we have this nasty one, which no one can figure out:
The Hammer of Sigmar: +2S, double wounds, difficulty roll in shooting phase or leadership test? – summoned hammer, enhances caster or enhances weapon?

To understand this spell, we should probably have the description up and analyze it:

"The Hammer of Sigmar Difficulty 7
This weapon of the faithful glows with a golden light, imbued as it is with the righteous power of
Sigmar.

The wielder gains +2 Strength in hand-to-hand combat and all hits he inflicts cause double
damage (eg, 2 wounds instead of 1). The Priest must test each shooting phase he wants to use
the Hammer."

First of all it says "This weapon", meaning it should either be a summoned or enhanced weapon, which should rule out, that it enhances the caster.
Then we have the sentence: "[...] he wants to use the Hammer", which should refer to the spell name and not an actual hammer, but could refer to both, if "The Hammer of Sigmar" is a magical weapon and known by name, and thus should be written with a H.
The "Hammer" could also refer to the extra punch Sigmar gives the weapon, when his servant is using one.
Unfortunatly I cannot get any further here, and thus I need your assistance:

Is it:
A. The Hammer of Sigmar - a hammer summoned magically, hitting with an extra +2S and causing double wounds, and if this is so, is it 1-, or 2-handed?
B. Sigmar who enhances his Warrior Priest's weapon with the power of Sigmar, giving it that extra punch to smash his foes?

Also, as an additional comment, it says "The Priest must test each shooting phase he wants to use
the Hammer", which should mean, that once you've cast it, you can choose when to use it, and you don't have to test each phase if you don't want to.
This could support answer B, since a summoned weapon usually requires to be maintained each turn (see Sword of Rezhebel) - not when you want to use it.
It could also support answer A, saying that this requires some magical powers to use.
This sentence might also mean, that this spell will remain in play the entire game, and you just need to test whether you can use it or not, that specific round.

Alright, that was the hard part, now to the spell testing. How must we test to maintain this spell?
First of all, there is two spells, I've mentioned, which requires a leadership test to maintain - Sword of Rezhebel and Tinci's Rage. Both of these tests are done at the beginning of the turn.
Second of all, there is no other spell (that I know of), requiring a difficulty test, however, this would seem more logical, since it is in the shooting phase (and thus magic phase), and also what another thread concluded The Hammer of Sigmar, partly because it says so in the german version of the Mordheim Rulebook. Remember, that this should not count as casting a spell.

Hope you can help me answer the A or B dilemma and confirm that the above mentioned spells can crit, and that The Hammer of Sigmar must be tested with a difficulty roll.

Phew. Sorry for the long post! rabbit
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Captain Ludwig of Altdorf
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Fri 19 Apr 2013 - 9:31

Fluffwise, I'd say option B. Summoning a hammer sounds a lot like magic, and everyone knows warrior priests and magic don't mix Very Happy

For gaming purposes, I'd agree with your gaming club that this spell may only be cast on hammers or great weapons, granting that weapon (and that weapon only) the bonus strength and wounds inflicted.
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Fri 19 Apr 2013 - 11:36

First: Don't mix bacground text with rules Smile They are two completely different things and some wird stuff happens when they are combined together.
Hammer of Sigmar is a strenght booster, it is not a weapon. Rules are clear about that. You add +2 S to priest's profile and his cc attacks are magical(?) and cause double wounds. Priest under hammer of Sigmar can crit but he cannot do 2X2 wounds by a single attack and must choose either 2wounds from hammer or critical hit (errata). Testing is not casting, he can test for upkeeping hammer AND cast other prayer.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Fri 19 Apr 2013 - 16:50

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
Fluffwise, I'd say option B. Summoning a hammer sounds a lot like magic, and everyone knows warrior priests and magic don't mix Very Happy

Good point there!

Captain Ludwig of Altdorf wrote:
For gaming purposes, I'd agree with your gaming club that this spell may only be cast on hammers or great weapons, granting that weapon (and that weapon only) the bonus strength and wounds inflicted.

So you'd say that with a double-handed weapon we have +4S and double wounds?
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Fri 19 Apr 2013 - 16:59

catachanfrog wrote:
First: Don't mix bacground text with rules Smile They are two completely different things and some wird stuff happens when they are combined together.

Usually that applies just fine, but I need to see the intention with this spell, since it's not clearly stated in the description, and when it says 'this weapon' in the description, it's hard to think of the spell as not having anything to do with a weapon. Nevertheless, that shouldn't matter much, you're right that it gives +2S and 2 wounds for each wound inflicted, but as you question - no then it would not be magical attacks, if it's not a weapon.

For me though, The Hammer of Sigmar is this at around 2:09.

catachanfrog wrote:
Priest under hammer of Sigmar can crit but he cannot do 2X2 wounds by a single attack and must choose either 2wounds from hammer or critical hit (errata).
Whether it can crit and not do 2x2 wounds, that's true, and an important thing to note, but it can function just fine with the other crits (making optional crit tables a good choice to run with, as usual).

catachanfrog wrote:
Testing is not casting, he can test for upkeeping hammer AND cast other prayer.
I am aware that testing is not casting, and that what also what I said in my original post Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Sat 20 Apr 2013 - 11:57

Quote :
Nevertheless, that shouldn't matter much, you're right that it gives +2S and 2 wounds for each wound inflicted, but as you question - no then it would not be magical attacks, if it's not a weapon.
I sometimes argue with a friend, that if my priest has "shield of faith spell" would he be immune to summoned weapons. Depending on point of view it matters and Mordheim is a game of points of view Very Happy
Quote :

I am aware that testing is not casting, and that what also what I said in my original post Wink
Ooops, sorry must have misread Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Wed 12 Jun 2013 - 22:17

i would have to burn my priest at the stake if he cast any spells but for him to pray for a shield of faith would be ok.
we allow enhanced weapons to cause criticals as clubba, rehezibel etc give the wielder a bonus and the weapons special ability's still apply
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PostSubject: Re: Questions about summoned and enhanced weapons   Today at 15:20

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