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 Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi

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gorenut
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 16:57

Thanks guys.. all very good advice/ideas.

I also agree with Lem on the vamp. Seems like perhaps if your Necro is atleast alive.. he'd be able to heal up a vamp.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 22:12

Pervavita wrote:
As to the wagon; I was thinking of using CoC and Merchents as the template for this.
In both cases the wagon enters the battle field and can be used.
Use the BTB sup for a lot of the wagon rules.
-Now what I was thinking as one idea for the use of the Wagon would be that it allows you to re-roll the Vampires serious injury chart results taking the secound choice. The reason for this is the Wagon is there for the Vampire and this would work for a game mechanic.
-Also the Wagon can be used as a mobile battle wagon.
-You could even make the wagon kind of a Standard of Nagarythe making a secound rallying point. Maybe 6" a +1 LD to all models
-Maybe the wagon is a kind of lucky charm allowing one model with in 6" to re-roll one dice each turn.

All the above I think fit fluff wise and would make the wagon highly usefull and put it at risk in the latter two as you are going to want to keep it with the warband meaning the large target is also a prime target for the enemy. They will want to take it out and as it has to be 6" from the battle and makes it hard to protect too.
I thik the lucky charm effect could not be there but the other 3 (post game for Vampire, battle wagon, and Standard) for a cost of around 200gc. little higher then the Merchent wagon but also has a lot of use for the warband.

RationalLemming wrote:
I had been thinking off a post game serious injury reroll for the vampire too. I don't think that would be overpowered and helps the fact that the warband depends on the vampire for winning but the vampire ids expensive to replace and could greatly hinder the warband changes if ever last.

gorenut wrote:
Thanks guys.. all very good advice/ideas.

I also agree with Lem on the vamp. Seems like perhaps if your Necro is atleast alive.. he'd be able to heal up a vamp.

Noted and modifications added. If you would like a copy of the MS Word version to make your own changes, just let me know and I can email it to you.

Strigoi Warband v2


Last edited by Sgt. Mulcayhee on Sat 9 Mar 2013 - 12:10; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 23:03

Wow, thats a really neat list. Thanks for the time invested in creating it. As soon as I find an appropriate wagon model, I wouldn't mind testing it out. As a side note.. as mentioned before... the list can easily be set to max size of 15 since you limited the amount of ghouls and strigany in the band.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the first spell but I can easily see it replaced with the zombie spell in the necro list and actually allow zombies in the list. It'd really represent how horrific it'd be if some highwayman try to rob the wagon thinking it'd be an easy target.

Lastly.. I think the Strigany and Ghouls equally represent the Strigoi. I wouldn't mind seeing both be 0-5.. especially since all the heroes barring the vampires are humans anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 5:16

@SM... It looks like you put a lot of effort into creating that doc. Nice job. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 10:30

Vary nice.

A few things I suggest adding:

Ghouls: I would use the same weapons/armour rules as the vampire so if they get LGT they can use equipment... one of the worst rule over views in the standard Vampires list.

Wagon: I think you need to add some more wagon rules. Otherwise with no state line the wagon has to just sit back and do nothing. This thus means the Vampire has to sit back and now the whole warband needs to stay back.
It doesn't need too much more in this regard. Refrence the EiF rules (P30-33).
Also change the stats to match those in EiF (ups the toughness).
Last the wagon needs a cost and rarity like others.
80gc covers the two horses (40 each) so another 100 gc for the wagon.
The wagon is not required to have after all so they can save up for it and it does give a 3rd rallying point to the warband and helps the Vampire a lot.
I know the cost is a lot so maybe give them a discount on the Wagon if bought at the warbands creation of something like 90 gold (half cost).
Allow them also if they want to upgrade there horses to Nightmares (95 gc each) and even to start (also at a discounted adjusted rate). I would also go so far as to say that Nightmares do not benafit from the "Apply the Lash" rule but I would also add that they can re-roll the Out of Control result (why they would suffer from this I don't know). The wagons movement I would say is unchanged from normal but I could see adjusting it down some but that would make it harder to track.

The reason for this with the Wagon is that it adds a lot of options to the warband to think about and the ability to re-roll your serious injury for a hero (even if just the leader) is a huge deal.

Also the reason for the Wagon discount to start and not just start the warband wtih 600 gold (like Merchents) is that with out the wagon being required it can just be ignored and thus is a huge boost to the warband. This way the warband can take the risk to get the Wagon but it's not a warband killler (I hope) to do so.
Or give them 600 and require the wagon.

Wagon Master:
I would give him the two special rules the Coachmen has from the BtB supplament (P.168)
Driver: Re-roll out of control roll each turn
Handyman: Can do some repairs to the wagon.

I would also drop Combat skill from his skill tree and add Speed (so he can accsess dodge). His main job is on the wagon and that will help keep the wagon allive (allong with the other above rules).
I also wouldn't change his cost due to this as the 2 special rules require you to invest in a wagon to make good use of.

Loss of Vampire: Obviously this isn't an "Undead" warband in the same sense as others but the Vampire is the core of this warband and with out him it falls apart and loses all it's flavor other then being just a bunch of Gypsies with no reason to be.
Thus what I think might be a good idea is make some rule for if you lose the Vampire.
*Loss of Leader*- If the Vampire is lost at any time you may buy a new one. In the mean time the Domnu takes command but will step down as soon as there is a new Vampire. If you have no Domnu or Vampire in the warband at any time it disbands.

Another rule (or in the same loss of leader rule) I would make some stipulation that hurts you to not have the Vampire.
1: With out the Vampire on the battlefield (OOA, misses game, or is dead) then all leadership rolls are at a -2.
or
2: Once the Vampire is lost you have 2 games to purchus (find) a new Vampire or the warband disbands.

The idea of both is to make the Vampire the center of the warband more and would also encourage the wagon more.

Hired Swords: I am of a mind that adding the Coachmen (p.168 BtB) wouldn't be a stretch ether. not that he would have a lot of use here but still i can see it.
Grave Robber too wouldn't be bad (p.170 BtB).
Of course both are not offical but nether is this Wink


Don't get me wrong in the least, this is not to say what is done so far is bad, far from it. Just some things to help flesh it out more.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 14:12

I agree with Pervavita. I would prefer for the wagon to use the rules for vehicles from EiF.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 19:48

I am going to add a "rules variation" page at the end. In my neck of the woods we don't use the mounted rules or the rules from Border Town Burning, so it kind of throws things out of balance to have rules in the list that I can't use. (I know, I know, I, I, I, me, me, me, selfish Smile )

We only play with "fan made" or experimental warbands if we play-test the crap out of them and then make variations to point values to try to make it balanced against the original 6[8] warbands, plus the "official" additions, Dwarf Treasure Hunters, Orcs and Goblins, etc. My Wood Elf warband is still undergoing play-testing and it has been almost a year.

Having said that, I was originally trying to put this together for Gorenut, so I can throw in all the addendum's or modifications after putting in the core ideas. So I think a "rules variation" page will accomplish that. Or I could make changes to the the original list and have two separate lists.

As for the idea's.
I got rid of the 12" requirement for the vampire to get a re-roll, and just made it "as long as the wagon survives." I agree that would be a pain to have to keep the vampire around the wagon. The reason I did T7 rather than what was listed in EiF (T8) was, in thinking about it a S4 model can't harm a T8 model. I thought that was a little excessive so I dropped it by one point. However, if using the full EiF rules, models could attack the wheel which only has T6.

Changed Strigany and Ghouls to 0-5 for both.


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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 20:27

If the wagon is a stationary piece of scenery then it is good that the 12" restriction for the vampire was removed. There are a lot of scenarios that force (or encourage) moving around the board instead of clumping so this will help to provide some benefit when the wagon is scenery.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Sat 9 Mar 2013 - 12:13

Strigoi Warband v3

Strigoi Rules Variations

*Edit - fixed link


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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 10:27

Thanks for all the work put in. Looks good so far.. the first link though leads to your Asrai list Smile (which coincidently, my girlfriend is kind of interested in maybe starting).
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 13:03

Question on the "One of Kind" Rule.
If the Domnu were to die then who becomes the leader? Would it then in this case mean a new one must be purchused (and what if you don't have the gold?) or do you find the new leader as normal?

I think the over all idea works as it gives you a reason to invest in the Wagon if using the Wagon rules (EiF) as you will want to get it up front more with the rest of the warband.
I do think though there almost needs to be more insentive to buy the wagon if using the EiF rules or less bonus to the wagon with out the rules.
It just seams to be a huge gap in the rules.
without the EiF rules you get for free the wagon that allows the Vampire a re-roll to his serious injury roll.
I think that the wagon should be bought also for the warband even if it's static to help balance it out.
As it's static maybe give it a cost of 50gc if purchused at the start and 120 if later.
As it's not moving the 2nd rally point is useless a lot of times so shouldn't be as expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 14:27

Pervavita wrote:
Question on the "One of Kind" Rule.
If the Domnu were to die then who becomes the leader? Would it then in this case mean a new one must be purchused (and what if you don't have the gold?) or do you find the new leader as normal?

I think the over all idea works as it gives you a reason to invest in the Wagon if using the Wagon rules (EiF) as you will want to get it up front more with the rest of the warband.
I do think though there almost needs to be more insentive to buy the wagon if using the EiF rules or less bonus to the wagon with out the rules.
It just seams to be a huge gap in the rules.
without the EiF rules you get for free the wagon that allows the Vampire a re-roll to his serious injury roll.
I think that the wagon should be bought also for the warband even if it's static to help balance it out.
As it's static maybe give it a cost of 50gc if purchused at the start and 120 if later.
As it's not moving the 2nd rally point is useless a lot of times so shouldn't be as expensive.

The "One of a kind" rule should be clarified. Since the Domnu is not the "starting leader" I was thinking that you could pruchase another one, just like finding someone else in the caravan who becomes the new leader. What do you think?

I upped the cost of the vampire to 120 gc to partially include the cost of the wagon since the two main benefits of it (the OOA role and the +1 LD) are both related to him. I think the cost of the wagon for the mobile version should go down quite a bit. I added the rule in about someone having to "stay with the wagon" to balance out the costs. Although it wouldn't always be the case, this could frequently result in the loss of wyrdstone for the warband.

Since the Vampire is One of a Kind, if the wagon is static I wanted to keep it as a free accessory to provide the special bonuses (most important of which is the re-roll). If mobile I think the cost at initial purchase should go down to 100 gc or possibly less?
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 14:46

so the Domnu in effect is:
Domnu 0-2*
*You may only have 1 Domnu in your warband unless you have no Vampire.

I think that would work.

I'm not keen on the Vampires cost being higher to compensate for the wagon rules but think it would be better to have the wagon be it's own cost to give those benafits.
The reson for this is that if you have the wagon like in EiF then the Vampire is too expensive.
It would be better to have the static Wagon have a cost as it does give a bonuse in ether regard.
The wagon would be wanted by anyone I would think just to allow the Vampire a re-roll. 50gc to give your leader a re-roll on the serious injury and give you a secound rally point (even if way back) is quite good... in scenarios where you are defending a location this will be a big deal.
For the mobile wagon rules (EiF) I think a discount is needed there and I think you did that fine with the lower cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Tue 12 Mar 2013 - 2:14

The static wagon needs a cost otherwise the is no incentive to defend it because it would be replaced for free if ever destroyed. Giving the static wagon a cost means that there is a penalty if the warband doesn't defend the wagon beyond the temporary loss of benefits for the rest is the battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Tue 12 Mar 2013 - 11:25

RationalLemming wrote:
The static wagon needs a cost otherwise the is no incentive to defend it because it would be replaced for free if ever destroyed. Giving the static wagon a cost means that there is a penalty if the warband doesn't defend the wagon beyond the temporary loss of benefits for the rest is the battle.

Currently it is initially included with the warband, but has a replacement cost of 120 gc. However, I think that amount should decrease.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Tue 12 Mar 2013 - 12:06

My problem with it starting with the warband for free is that it does not also start for free if you use wagon rules... and wagon rules (and riden animals rules) are a tough batch of rules and can be painful.
then there is the other rules.
the +1 ld to models in 6".
The Standard of Nagarythe is 75gc for effectivly the same thing but takes a hand of one of your heroes and can move around.
War horn is a one time use +1 ld for 30 gold. This again is much the same effect but a one time use, takes up no hands and is mobile.
Those two items are the closest to the Wagons rule here and have there own draw backs that would be comparable to the Wagons draw back in that it will only be effective in something like 1/3 of games (Deffend the find type games).
The real advantage though is the re-rolling the the serious injury roll on the Vampire. I can't compare that to any equipment as there is non out there. I would value it at atleast 50gc in value... and as the wagon is static it's a low risk loss to the wagon.

I would say there may be a better way to handle this.
Make the wagon have simple rules and make it move.
Require some one to drive (Wagon Master).
Can move and has horses. but there is no "Wow Boy" or "out of control" rules
As for hitting the wagon. h2h is base contact, shooting you can pick one of 3 targets (at normal difficulty) or take a random shot at a +1 to hit but the shot is randomised as 1-3 wagon, 4-5 horse, 6 driver.
Give the wagonmaster the ability to crack the wip (if equiped with one) for +d6 move

this removes most of the harsh rules on the wagon and gives it a short list of rules that fit the doc with ease. It also makes the wagon some more fun then a tarrain piece.
For the wagon you can have these rules for the wagon with a rule saying "or use the EiF rules if your group is already using them"
and for the wagon master give him the same skills as in the alternent doc with a note behind them (or before) saying "if using the EiF rules"
Thus it all fits in one doc.

This rule style is not out of place in Mordheim as the Nuln warband has much the same with the Missfire rules and also the same in concept (at least in my mind) as the advanced Critical hit chart.

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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Tue 12 Mar 2013 - 15:03

@SM... Sorry I missed that when I read through.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Tue 12 Mar 2013 - 17:05

I would argue that the stationary wagon starts for free because of the advantages you gain:
1) A piece of cover that cannot be moved (Ok)
2) The re-roll of one dice for the vampire (Large Benefit - Only used if your vampire goes OOA)
3) The +1 LD in 6", but only for Wagon master and Strigany, and only while remaining near the wagon. Not a real huge advantage except for defend missions, which is kind of the fluff of the wagon. (e.g. Guard the Wagon)

As a mobile piece of terrain using the EiF rules, what do you gain?
1) All of the above, with the exception that the cover can move along with your advance (Better than above)
2) The ability to move that +1 LD around the battlefield (Better than above)
3) Even if stationary, by adding the EiF rules, crew on the wagon are "defending an obstacle" 6's to hit! (Pretty big advantage)
4) Toughness for the wagon goes up to 8, which makes it impossible to wound for baseline Str 4 troops, wheel is still a T6, wouned only on 6's. (Probably on par with the modified stats)
5) Ability to ride through enemy models (S4 hit)

The standard of Nagarythe gives Ld 10 (much better than +1 LD) to all models in 6" and if the model with the Standard goes OOA, all Elves get Frenzy. Quite a bonus for 75 gc and you can move it with several models around it, allowing you to complete objectives while still gaining the LD bonus.

The warhorn at 25 gc does only have a +1 LD for one turn, but it has no range, all units on the table are affected. So again, allows you to move about the battlefield and complete objectives.

As for rules for moving the wagon, other than Blazing Saddles and EIF, I think it would be quite onerous to create a new rule set for moving the wagon seperate from those mentioned above. Why would there need to be? It either is stationary, and you don't use any of the mounted, blazing saddles, EiF rules, or it moves and you do. There is just so many "what if's" that have largely been ironed out already in the existing rules.

In the totality of everything. One of the huge advantages the undead have, is that they can re-purchase their leader (which I would argue goes into the gc costs for the warband). Since that isn't an option here, I think the automatic bonus of the reroll for OOA goes toward makiing up for the disadvantage. It could just be given to the Vampire model, but then the point cost on the Vampire should probably go up.

Having said all this, I think the cost for the EiF version wagon should go down quite a bit and maybe put a nominal cost on the stationary version, still on the fence, but remember there already is a built in cost in lost income after every battle. Still whoever created the ruleset for EiF felt that it should be 100 gc for some reason.

Besides the wagon, which I think has been a great discussion. Is there anything else in the list that stands out as a glaring problem?
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Wed 13 Mar 2013 - 10:41

I don't argue that wagons in EiF are expensive and overly so for what they give.
The biggest problem you are missing in your comparison is the Out of Control rules for the Wagons in EiF. This makes wagons a huge risk to there cost and that is at the core of what I'm getting at here. The stationary wagon is a huge advantage to the warband if for free.
I understand the ability to replace the Vampire in the standard undead list is a big advantage but I would say that re-rolling the Vampire on the serious injury chart is also a big advantage and probably even bigger as it would take some really bad rolls to lose your Vampire with the wagon. As even this Vampire is vary strong this means there is little risk to throwing the Vampire into the fights other then risk of bad injuries and little loss of income.

I only brought the standard and horn up as they are the closest comparisons to existing rules.
Getting a standard 10 ld is huge to some warbands but you have to remember that this is a shadow Elf only item. This means for the leader it's a +1 LD and for all others (except Novices that no one takes) it's a +2 leadership. Still a big deal, I am simply pointing out that it isn't as big as it seams (like for humans being a +2 for the leader and +3 or +4 for the rest).
Point is just for this it's worth about 25% of the Standards cost at least as the Frenzy effect is not there and the mobility is not there.... but it also doesn't take a hand of a hero. In effect this rule is worth about 20 gc... make it mobile then it's worth more.

The reason also for making the mobile rules in ether event is that you said your group doesn't use EiF wagon rules. So I was making a simpler rule set that you could use and still have the Wagon move.
As an item that never moves there is little reason to even make rules for it other wise as it will get parked in the safest location just to protect it and then be forgotten as you move forward to your objective. The only time it will be valnerable is if you have a scenario where the enemy has to come to you (deffend the find or street fight types). or if a fast warband choses to send some fast guys around your flank to strike at the wagon.

I'm not saying the rules are bad, I'm just saying that the wagon should have some cost or if you rather not have it at all.
I like the idea of the wagon on the battle field and think that it would move and not be just parked and forgotten (as it's so valuable to the warband) as they move forward for objectives.

Over all I think the warband works well. The wagon is really the onlything I see not working right here.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Thu 14 Mar 2013 - 22:36

Your points are well taken, I am convinced.

What would be a fair price for the two versions of the wagon?
Stationary: 40 gc? Should it be a mandatory purchase?
EiF: 80-90gc?

Keep in mind that there is also a per game cost in the potential lost wyrdstone.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Fri 15 Mar 2013 - 9:30

40/80 sounds good to me.

I wouldn't make it manditory... and those would be the prices for a starting warband. for both I think it should probably double in cost if bought latter and maybe Rare 10 or 11.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Sun 17 Mar 2013 - 19:41

How much weaker do you guys think this vampire is compared to the vanilla list? Regen is obviously powerful, as well as becoming frenzy, but I don't know how it would compare to a vampire protected by gear, using a great weapon, and strongman skill.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Mon 18 Mar 2013 - 17:11

I was actually thinking about that. In addition, the Strigoi has a BS, but can't use missile weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Sat 30 Mar 2013 - 14:09

Updated as discussed above:

Stirgoi V4

Variations
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PostSubject: Re: Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi    Today at 14:48

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