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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 9:52

We are playing a game currently and we ran into something that is causing a problem for us.
I have a 3 wound Totem Warrior who is moving in on a pair of shooters.
Both shoot her (2 hits), one wounds normal (-1 wound) and the other scores a crit.
Our debate is do I suffer -1 more wound or do I suffer -1 wound and then take the last wound from the crit's result (Stunned in this case)?

On P.16 of the rule book:
Quote :
If a critical hit causes more than 1 wound, and the weapon the attacking model is using normally causes several wounds, then use the one that causes the most damage.

Now to be clear we are using the standard critical hit table.
Also using the above rule from the rule book I read it to mean that a critical hit can only ever inflict 1 wound (take the worse effect from the 2 dice rolled).
Otherwise this rule makes no sense as the only weapons that do more then one wound are double barral weapons (handgun and pistol) and that's not offical weapons.

What is your guys take on this?
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Grumbaki
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 11:04

Pervavita wrote:
We are playing a game currently and we ran into something that is causing a problem for us.
I have a 3 wound Totem Warrior who is moving in on a pair of shooters.
Both shoot her (2 hits), one wounds normal (-1 wound) and the other scores a crit.
Our debate is do I suffer -1 more wound or do I suffer -1 wound and then take the last wound from the crit's result (Stunned in this case)?

On P.16 of the rule book:
Quote :
If a critical hit causes more than 1 wound, and the weapon the attacking model is using normally causes several wounds, then use the one that causes the most damage.

Now to be clear we are using the standard critical hit table.
Also using the above rule from the rule book I read it to mean that a critical hit can only ever inflict 1 wound (take the worse effect from the 2 dice rolled).
Otherwise this rule makes no sense as the only weapons that do more then one wound are double barral weapons (handgun and pistol) and that's not offical weapons.

What is your guys take on this?

Here's my take, and the way I've always played it.

2 models shoot at her. They shouldn't be shooting at the same time.
The 1st model shoots. He wounds her. She is now at 2 wounds.
The 2nd model shoots her. He gets a critical that causes 2x wounds. This first takes her down to 1 wound, and then the second to 0. She rolls once on the injury table.
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 11:22

But is that effectivly a house rule or is that reading the rules?

By reading your way of playing it then all Critical hits would result in OOA on warriors with 1 wound.
why?
your rolling the two wound results from the critical as one roll after another meaning once you are down to 0 wounds (from the first half of the crit) and the 2nd half would per the rules have wounded already resulting in OOA as you need to for knocked down just roll to wound and as your already past the rolling to wound phase and have wounded it's an OOA.
I know this isn't how you play or mean for it to play but reading what you wrote that is how it would play out.

the way I understand the rule is both are rolled at the same time and double your chances of scoring a better wound.

This works the same way as when you roll to hit with more then one attack. You don't roll 1 attack, see if it hits then roll to wound then see results (say knocked down) then with all future attacks are rolled on the warrior who is knocked down from the same warrior.
you do however roll all "to hits" together and all "to wounds" together. From here all to wounds that did wound roll as a wound result (say 3 dice) and you get 1, 3, 4 resulting in Model is Stunned (apply highest number).
To apply consecutivly as soon as you got the 3 or 4 there is no further need to roll.

How does this apply to this situation?
It's the same concept with the Crit as both wounds from the Crit would be applied together for one wound and you take the highest (best) result.
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 11:27

Pervavita wrote:
But is that effectivly a house rule or is that reading the rules?

It's my reading of the rules. Or at least the GW employee's reading of the rules when the game first started out, and the local store held our 1st campaign.

Quote :
By reading your way of playing it then all Critical hits would result in OOA on warriors with 1 wound.
why?
your rolling the two wound results from the critical as one roll after another meaning once you are down to 0 wounds (from the first half of the crit) and the 2nd half would per the rules have wounded already resulting in OOA as you need to for knocked down just roll to wound and as your already past the rolling to wound phase and have wounded it's an OOA.

You have 1 wound. It's a shooting attack. So you in effect take 2 wounds. You roll twice on the injury table and take the worst result. So if the 1st wound knocked you down, your knocked down. The second stuns you? You're stunned.

Now, for close combat attacks, the way the red shirt explained it, was as so: "It's still one attack." See where I'm going with that? You are hit once, just really, really hard. It isn't a double-tap, where the guy knocks you down and then stabs you. It's him hitting so hard that you roll twice on the injury table.

Anyone else want to chime in?
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 11:35

That's my point is it's not a double tap but is just a strong blow. This blow has twice the odds of causing a serious wound (at the most basic Critical hit result) not 2 wounds.

Even with 2+ hits you still only take the worse result and not consecutive hits from a normal hit. Again not effectivly a double tap.


edit: Also if that ruling came from the time the game first came out, what weapon would this rule be meant to include? It seams like a waisted rule as there are no weapons that cause more then 1 wound.
Only from the Nuln list is there any and even there you roll to wound for each shot so again it would be a waisted rule.
I can't see GW having the forsight to make such a rule for the future but totaly bugger up other rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 11:48

I'm afraid that I don't follow.

It's one hit that causes 2 wounds. If you have 3 wounds, it takes you down to 1. If you have 2 wounds, it makes you roll once on the injury table. If you have 1 wound, you roll twice on the injury table. What's the problem here?

The critical hit charge is pretty clear.

1-2=no armor save
2-3= 2 wounds, no armor save
5-6 = 2 wounds, no armor save, +2 to injury

It doesn't say "roll twice on the injury chart" it says 2 wounds. IE: If you have 3 wounds, it takes away 2 wounds.
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 13:45

my core argument is simply that the rule book has a typo as the rule makes no sense at all unless it is a typo.
why?
What weapon in ALL of the Mordheim world would this rule apply to?
So thus the "and" is a typo and should be ether left out or be "or"

Now with that said I have just gone threw the Core Rule Book (nothing), Empire in Flames (nothing), and Annual 2002 (found 1) that this rule would apply to and thus I will admit that it is not a typo but me missunderstanding the rule based on my assumption that it never applied to any situation (rule or weapon) in Mordheim and thus had to be a small typo (for why write a rule that would not apply?).

The 1 weapon: Ball and Chain found in the Annual 2002 that would apply.
This means that I'm mistaken as I will assume that this was thought of before (as i can see O&G being a warband being toyed with as one of the first warbands) and they added the rule in to start.

I would not put it past GW to have such a typo in there rule book or for a red shirt to make a mistake on the rules as well.

I don't think the rule follows logic but it's the rule. Sorry for the confusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 14:09

For what it is worth it has always been the understanding in my group that during testing there were a couple of weapons that would do multiple wounds. There were also a few magic items or poisons that would do double wounds, hence the existence of the rule. Most of these were removed later on, but the rule remained as a relic and they thought there was no reason to remove it for when they later added more multi-wound weapons.

As we know now, pretty much all multi-wound weapons that were later conceived of were too powerful and never added with the one exception that you found.


Last edited by Lord 0 on Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 16:26; edited 2 times in total
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 14:14

That helps clear it up a lot too.
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PostSubject: Re: Critical Hits   Fri 22 Feb 2013 - 16:22

I must admit, I am rather glad there are no weapons that do multiple wounds because it means that when I make, say, a magic axe that does D3 wounds and always strikes first as a campaign reward it makes it that much more special because there is nothing else out there like it.

Similarly when there are spiders or jungle npc's or traps or something that has poison doing d3 wounds it is that much scarier and a clear sign that shit just got real. Or something.
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