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 Unbreakable Witch Hunters?

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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 4:37

My group agreed that if captain is OoA next warrior who's leadership is used is a hero with highest LD. But!! By the raw rules, if witch hunters warband has a flagellant (still alive of course) it is impossible to rout them.
Rout test rules:
Quote :
To take a Rout test roll 2D6. If the score is equal to or
less than the warband leaderís Leadership, the player
has passed the test and may continue to fight.
If the warbandís leader is out of action or stunned,
then the player may not use his Leadership to take the
test. Instead, use the highest Leadership characteristic
amongst any remaining fighters who are not stunned
or out of action.

Flagellant's special rule:
Quote :
Flagellants are convinced that the end of
the world is nigh, and nothing in this world holds any
terror for them. Flagellants automatically pass all
Leadership-based tests they are required to take
. A
Flagellant may never become a warband leader.
It's not about LD 10 it's about passing every rout without rolling a dice. Is it correct by raw?
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 5:11

I'd interpret the "may never become a warband leader" part in so far as to he's not even able to become a surrogate leader in case the leader gets taken OOA during the game.

In the case there's no other heroes around are OOA so you have to use him, I suggest making rout checks as normal, as them being totally crazed out and immune to psychology does not mean they can translate this into good leadership to rally the troops in the face of the losses incurred.

Edit: Or does the warband -member- with the next highest leadership get to do the rout tests, not only the heroes? Then I'd say ignore the flagellants until there is no-one left, and in case you really only fight with the flagellants and the rest of the warband is OOA, consider the remainder unbreakable.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 5:41

Flagellants are not immune to psychology like darksouls - they "automatically pass all Leadership-based tests they are required to take". It's not the same - they can benefit from, hatred, frenzy... Rulebook does not say, that next fellow to test his leadership in case of rout should be able to take command or not - that's the point. It would matter if, some rules would say "next model with highest leadership gains "Leader" for reminder of battle". I know it is weird and as I said before, I'm not inteding to do such things but I'm wondering, is it legal by raw rules , without any house rules or reasonable thinking Twisted Evil raw meat with no spice!
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 5:50

We liked to play, that you never test with their leadership until only they and perhaps some dogs are left.
If that happens you have some crazy last man standing situation.


RAW you don't test for the model (which would pass automaticaly), you are using his value for the complete warband.
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garathiel
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 6:24

You are right, the flagellant Will pass all the ld test that should do...but The band is taking a test, using flagellant ld number. Using RAW.

Perhaps .. I really like the interpretation that the flagellants remaining without orders refuse to runaway Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 7:15

Well,

I do see well enough other members of warband being inspired by a charging crazy frenzy out-of-his-skull zealous fanatic.

The rules state:

Quote :
A player must make a Rout test at the start of his turn if a quarter (25%) or more of his warband is out of action. For example, in a warband that has twelve warriors a test is needed if three or more are out of action. Even warbands who are normally immune to psychology (such as Undead) must make Rout tests.

If the Rout test is failed, the warband automatically loses the fight. The game ends immediately and surviving warriors retreat from the area. A failed Rout test is the most common way in which a fight ends.

To take a Rout test roll 2D6. If the score is equal to or less than the warband leaderís Leadership, the player has passed the test and may continue to fight. If the warbandís leader is out of action or stunned, then the player may not use his Leadership to take the test. Instead, use the highest Leadership characteristic amongst any remaining fighters who are not stunned or out of action.

Here is your answer:


Even warbands who are normally immune to psychology (such as Undead) must make Rout tests.
and
To take a Rout test roll 2D6. If the score is equal to or less than the warband leaderís Leadership...

Its not a test the leader is doing. This a ''warband test'' that USES the leader stat.


I think that if they wanted the leader to take the test they had simply written :

The leader of the warband must make a Ld test or...


I see this as the Rout test is more a representation of the willing for men to stay for their leader rather than a leader motivating his troops... If you're taking rout test, everyone knows there is trouble.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 9:05

Warband taking test?! That's veeeeery unprecise - exactly in rulebook style.
Don't you think that if the band was taking a test we should:
1) make leadership test for every model
2) count succesful and failed ones
3) if succesful test were majority, they stand and fight
4)if not they retreat
Mordheim warbands are not democratic (all right, mayby Tileans) and are led by well...leaders. They decide if fighting is a lost cause or, despite the loses, victory can be achieved. that's why we're rolling against captain's leadership. that's the fluff part.
Quote :

Even warbands who are normally immune to psychology (such as Undead) must make Rout tests.
Everyone can make undead warband with only one model (we know who) immune to psycho and rest, who are not.
As I see it:
Rout test - leadership test against highest value of LD in warband (if capt is dead) right? <--raw
Flagellant has LD10 AND ability to auto pass all "LD based tests" right?
conclusion: as rout is ld based flagellant can auto pass it.
Quote :
Its not a test the leader is doing. This a ''warband test'' that USES the leader stat.
And since leader-model with a leader skill (let us be carefull with wording) is OoA, flagellant (highest LD in warband by raw) is "rolling" for rout tests.

I'm not saying that it's reasonable (flagellant as leader who inspires) but by raw it looks like this.
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 9:28

The rules make it clear from what Goglutin posted of the rules with:
Quote :

To take a Rout test roll 2D6. If the score is equal to or less than the warband leaderís Leadership, the player has passed the test and may continue to fight. If the warbandís leader is out of action or stunned, then the player may not use his Leadership to take the test. Instead, use the highest Leadership characteristic amongst any remaining fighters who are not stunned or out of action.
This does not say it's a leadership test for the model (Flagellant) but is simply using the leadership characteristic.
Had the intent been to use the leadership of the model it would say to have the model take a leadership test (as this would make the rules much shorter as previously in the rule book it explains how to take a leadership test).
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 9:53

Flagellants automatic pass leadership tests .. Not rout tests.

This is RAW .. And pretty logic too (RAI too for me)
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Fri 15 Feb 2013 - 9:57

Thats the point. You USE his stat... but that's not the model taht pass the test.
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PostSubject: Re: Unbreakable Witch Hunters?   Sat 16 Feb 2013 - 5:59

You guys are right, sorry Cool Talked to the friend yesterday - he explained my very slowly and in easy words what's wrong with my reasoning. Hm....My brain is not working properly... scratch
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