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 Dwarf overpowered...

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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 8:02

I played a duel of warband with friend...
He played the Dwarves Treasure hunter and I choose the forest gobbos (from nemesis crown).
I'm a much more experimented player still...

His F***ing dwarves were balanced the 5-6 first games but now, they are unstoppable. No matter what I do I cannot put them OOA !
I overcrowd him by triple, and I often ends up with 5 characters attacking the same ass h**e dwarf and he survive !

No matter how much I shoot at him he stands !

The ''situation'' is that after analysis, because my warband rating was much higher due to number he got underdog rating +2, +3 on a few games and now its just boring for me.

To put his dwarfs heroes OOA I need 5 to hit, pass double/ rerolled parry, 6 to wound (no criticals), bypass 4+armor save, score 6 to put OOA and if I stun he have 2+save to be knocked down instead... That's utterly ridiculous.

Many people argue that elves are overpowered... but NO! The dwarves are the worst warband I ever had to face.

6 to put OOA (ridicoulously strong)
Master of blade (powermonger skill)
all member 4 toughness with 5 max... (erhg)
+1 wyrdstone per game (humph... )

drawback : 3 M - it just do not matter ! Shooting them is USELESS !

I play elves and they NEVER got that unstoppable... if someone tell me again the elves are overpowered for shooting 3S bow while the dwarves can survive 20 shots in a row I just punch him in the face ...



(Sorry for my agressivness.. I 'm just passing my frustrations here instead than just shout at my friend)... thx for understanding.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 8:41

Amen brother Gog! I truly do believe that Dwarfs do not get nearly the amount of hate they deserve!

Of course you picked one of the worst warbands to counter them, since the Forest Goblins don't have much that can hurt the stunties and will, as you noted, make them stronger by giving them underdog bonuses!

And I hate elves with an equal passion. Nasty hoppy, skippy things, elveses. Ick!

I haven't played the Forest Goblins as Forest Goblins for years, preferring to piratize them, but what you could have done...
--Take the big spider and ride it.
--get other spiders and ride those.
--use all the poisons you can.
--Send 5 goblins to every combat. Expect one back.
--Fight in jungles and on rivers. Dwarves hate both.
--Do not give up on shooting, but start getting better weapons. Steal from the Stunties and learn to use Crossbows and Thundersticks.
--Diving charges!
--Always be sneaky.

You are likely to still lose, but its less stressful than frontal assaults.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 9:43

Yess.... poison... I just forgot about it... expensive yet effecient...

Yess... big spider.... I'm currently gathering money for it. Lets hope I will not lose 2-3 gobbos/game until I get it.

Stealing crossbows ? How ?



Thx for the help... My hope to win is now reset.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 10:03

Quote :
Stealing crossbows ? How ?

The stealing is a manner of speaking, a figure of speach, the fluff reason that you buy crossbows and handguns. Your heroes must gain the skill weapons Master to use them, but once they have it you can get S4 missile weapons that can be augmented with poisons or superior gunpowder. Not particularly efficient, but it gives hope to the missile exchange.

We play a lot with the Sartosa setting Cargo as wyrdstone charts so poisons and superior gunpowder are more readily available.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 11:37

(1) Play different kinds of scenarios. Break through. Treasure hunt. Ones that requirement movement and/or splitting up. It'll even things out well.
(2) Go for the henchmen. If his heroes are all T5 with dwarf axes, master of blades, etc, then don't mob them. Instead go for the juicy henchmen. They are only T4 (5+ to wound) and shouldn't have any armor. That and they can't have skills. Hit 'em on the head, stun 'em and stomp 'em. Even with Ld9 he'll fail a break test sooner or later.
(3) If you must go for the heroes, have an official can-opener. A model with a great weapon. Have 2-3 models charged with knocking the dwarf down and the can-opener puts him down.
(4) Poison, as has been mentioned above.


The biggest thing though is point (1). Dwarfs are dead slow. Play a few games where you don't need to fight him to win, just out run him. Then it'll be his turn to cry "unfair."
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 12:33

Oh! Oh! This tactic is purely situational, but fun.

If your shaman has the Leap o' Waaagh! spell, pick a target within range of the spell and shoot it with everyone else. If the target goes OoA great! If not hope it is knocked down or stunned, then fling a high strength model at it to take it out of action if it is knocked down or anything if it is stunned.

Leap of Waaagh is a good way to counter tall buildings full of shooters, too.

It is unlikely that your opponent is unlucky, but if he is, Wind of Gork can be devestating. My poor ogres were winded to death in the early stages of the current campaign.

Can openers: Since the f. goblins may not take Strength skills and only heroes can carry double handed weapons, a big spider or a hired ogre or pit fighter are your best 'can openers'.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 17:13

So I'll adjust my tactics as following. (priorities)

1 - Buy the Huge spider.
2- Focus on buying crossbows, getting weapon master along.
3- Shoot as much as I can before ''shooting'' a gobbo in close combat to finish the job ! (I have leap of the whaag).
4- BUY POISONS and DRUGS.
5- Hide as much as possible and use skirmisher tactic (shoot and run). Shoot from high spot.
6 - Let my number go down... focus on quality rather than quatity.

Here is my warband now:

1 chieftain (2 attacks, 2 wounds, shield/tough leather, sword, shortbow)

Braves :
(2 with boss poles/swords/shortbow, quickshot (I'd rather parry than have a shield with a so low WS... so I use a single sword in CC)
(2 with sword/shield/tough leather/shortbow, 2 attacks, step aside, dodge)

1 Shaman: Boss pole (4T, leap of the whaag... he was out for 3 games so he is underpowered a bit)

3 Sluggas: (Bows/clubx2) - 4BS, 2 attacks (we play that sluggas can get the quickshot skill instead of knife thrower as a warband permanent choice at warband creation).

3 Red Toof (spear/shield)

5 Warrior (spear/shield)


I've been unlucky with my upgrade rolls...many LD an Initiative.

Shields give 5+ AS and all my miniatures except the shaman and the stantard bearer (pole) have shields. (I do my best to be representative... I dislike when I fight an ennemy that shows a hammer and a shield that fight with two axes.. so I never do it myself)

All heroes have rabbit foot...



Lets hope I'll manage to cause some damage next time with a new ''cheesy'' tactic.

I also think to buy a red toof pendant to my boss and the two braves with 2 attacks to give them 4 attacks a few rounds... good idea ??



Last edited by Goglutin on Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 17:56; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 17:44

Just for the fluff... I give you a battle report from the last game. (before I adjust to my new tactics).

(MONSTER HUNT SCENARIO)

1 -I moved first. Getting closer to the center to ''lure'' the Young Chimera. I WANTED that treasure (Big mistake). I also had a free ogre from returning a favor for the battle (I was planning to keep him but he died).

2 - The dwarves are moving. They shot the chimera for a wound.

3 - The chimera is in range of the ogre and charge him. He survive but get a wound and did not managed to wound the beast.

4- I charge the beast with the boss, a red toof, a warrior and a brave. The F***ng beast took no damage. It put OOA a warrior, KD the fanatic and wounds the boss. I move other gobbos to get a clear shot for the incoming dwarves.

5 - Dwarves are closing.

6 - The chimera put OOA the brave and wound the ogre. IT TOOK NO DAMAGE AGAIN !!!!!

7 - I charge the chimera with another warriior. Shoot at the dwarves a bit. No result. The chimera put OOA the red toof. and stun the Ogre.

8- The dwarves begin to shoot. They KD a goblin warrior.

9 - The chimera stun the boss. Stun a warrior. IT TOOK NO DAMAGE AGAIN ! Everyone is KD or stunned around her.

10 - I get back and shoot the dwarves... no result. The chimera put the Ogre, the boss and the warrior OOA.

11 - The dwarves closed again. And shoot... I survive without damage.

12- The Chimera charge one of my Slugga and he SURVIVE !!! ( this can happen like 1 time in 300).

13- I Flee like a coward.

14- The dwarves gets close to the chimera.

15- The chimera charges the dwarf leader (also named Panzer) and he survive witouth trouble. He wound the chimera.

16- 3 dwarves heroes charge the chimera. She passed out from those 8 S4 attacks... Many XP for the dwarf, many treasure for the dwarf ... no loss, no injuries for the dwarf.

17- I got frustrated and begin to pack the the terrain in the box. My friend is happy. I am enraged. No more gaming this day. I argue that the dwarf are overpowered. I Tell him they stink and that dwarves are ugly, greedy and frustrated little being. They hate elves because they are jealous. They should return to their holes and wait for being exterminated by the orcs. I also tell they are all gay because dwarf womens do not exist so instead of being born like normal mammals, they come out from the asshole of gay dwarves.

LOL

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 17:51

PS: I have nothing against gay people...
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 18:20

I was curious, so I reviewed the NC Goblins. I agree, you’re pretty much out matched pretty, Badly. Along with other suggestions listed here, I’d say use your Initiative and Movement stats to your advantage. You can out run and out climb the Dwarves. If you can, get off the ground. Dwarves don’t climb well. Since Dwarves are stronger, better in melee, and good shooters; you’ll need crossbows and/or Black powder weapons. Crossbows for the S4 and Black Powder for the -2 Armor Saves. Your best bet is to Run, Snipe, and pray to whatever Dice Gods you can.

Run Green Boys! Run!

And Good Luck!

Can you Ally with another player?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Sun 3 Feb 2013 - 18:31

Nope... I'm alone... Its a warband duel

I managed to get the upper hand at first but as he get underdog bonuses and more money I'm just hopeless...

Lets hope I'll manage to ''balance'' things'' off...

But the few next games will be very important to see if I finally gives him VICTORY.

He still get an underdog bonus of +2 even if his warriors are SOOOO much stronger then mines... I'll throw my henchmen to death and retire as soon as possible. My number will decrease and the underdog bonus should fade after 2-3 games... the time I get that monstrous spider. I'll also get more money so I'll be able to buy poison. My shooters will get an edge with auto-wound on 6 rolls.

Thx for helping !
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Mon 4 Feb 2013 - 9:26

Hunting Arrows (if you keep to bows) allong with poison should help a lot as it will mean the dwarves go OOA on 5 and 6.
Also remember you can send troops away at any time... so you could take all the equipment off a few undesirable henchmen (those with bad advancments) and then let them go so then you take the underdog away right away... it may also boost your income some to grab the spider sooner.

As for dwarves being OP based on this match up I don't think it's a proper setup as Gobos from what I understand are not per say Under Powered but don't have enough of the right strengths to counter the Dwarves.
I understand it's a warband duel but maybe test diffrent match ups before saying they are unbalanced.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 0:24

I've tested a few for you there... Played against Treasure hunters and Chaos Dwarves with my mercenary warbands (humans of all sorts - mainly merchant caravan, but also other variants of the mercenaries)
The dwarves do tend to get tough. seeing as how they refuse to die easily in games, (usually only on 6's, and with a lot of extra saves vs stunned and other injuries) they advance easier. Meaning more skills and strengths with which to counter your moves (T5 shooters which only go out on 6's, after having a 4+ armor save - which will shoot you on 2's with S 4 armor piercing, and if you're specifically lucky, they'll have quick shot as well)

They are a tough bunch, and due to not having to rebuy most models, they get sweet equipment fast.
But as stated before, if you get the right scenario's, you can easily outrun them to the objectives and make for the table edge. It's frowned upon by some to rout voluntarily, but the post battle sequence is an important part of the game turns, and you do stand a lot of chance if you manage to keep your income up, and your casualties reasonably low.

There's no shame in retreating tactically and then spending all that coin to return with a vengeance - and hired swords or monsters Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 0:36

Well...

After this ''experience'', I'd say that the dwarves got the edge so easily because the gobbos are one of the worst warband to face them. (Von Kurst pointed that)

I have 2 Marauders warbands (Onogal and Arkhar) and a Warband of possessed that could possibly best them (thx to mutations).

My friend will probably replay the dwarves (he got some fun heh!). But when he'll face a marauder with resilent,mighty blows and bloated foulness and when half his warband will get infected by nurgle's rot or mutants with crystalline skin and two possessed with hulking brutes he will laugh a bit less.

Those warbands will not give him underdog bonuses too!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 8:09

I think that's one of the best parts of Mordheim. You have the ability to strike up another warband, different altogether in makeup/tactics/abilities with little effort. Yes, you do have to understand the new warband you are using, but there is nothing wrong with having a few warbands available to go at anytime.

I usually try to go with two warbands, alternating between the two against my son's two warbands of his choice. That way, we can get 4 games in without playing the same warbands against each other. Then, if we want to 'finish' out the campaign, we field both warbands, alternating plays, and winner take all.

I played against dwarves once, and I used Kislevites. The bear came in handy against them, so I agree that a large brute-type of warrior that can dish out STR4+ attacks would be best.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 10:56

PitFighterTrainer wrote:
I think that's one of the best parts of Mordheim. You have the ability to strike up another warband, different altogether in makeup/tactics/abilities with little effort. Yes, you do have to understand the new warband you are using, but there is nothing wrong with having a few warbands available to go at anytime.

I usually try to go with two warbands, alternating between the two against my son's two warbands of his choice. That way, we can get 4 games in without playing the same warbands against each other. Then, if we want to 'finish' out the campaign, we field both warbands, alternating plays, and winner take all.

I played against dwarves once, and I used Kislevites. The bear came in handy against them, so I agree that a large brute-type of warrior that can dish out STR4+ attacks would be best.

Just don't go overboard. Ex: Nurgle's Rot. It's generally accepted as being campaign breaking. There is no satisfaction in winning if you roll a 6 in combat, and your enemy ends up having multiple heroes die. If I had to face a player who abused Nurgle's Rot, I'd send in two beardlings each game and bottle. Shake hands, say good game, and find a different person to play against.

Oh, and Crystaliine Body? Has anyone here gone against that before? Not only is it pretty cheap, but you get T6. Combine that with resilient, and I can see it causing a host of problems. (n the last game of my second campaign, there was a possessed model with T9 (T6+drugs+resilient+eye of gods) and it single handedly took out my entire dwarf warband. With crystaline body, resilient and drugs, I can see a similar problem happening. Even with "only" 1 wound, the game could turn unpleasant.

In other words, aye, try to win. But I'd urge you to take away from this campaign: Being curb stomped is not fun. Feeling like you can't win no matter what you try isn't fun. So house rule Nurgle's Rot, and vary the mutations up so both of you can have fun. Chaos Marauders are strong enough to take the dwarfs on toe-to-toe.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 12:58

Well... I usually never abuse nurgle's rot... Just one character with it is enough.

However, I played my marauders of Onogal many times and I know how to make them as unstoppable and frustrating than his dwarves. I usually play them for the fluff... giving differents gifts/mutation to most of them... trying to fit the miniatures I have as much as possible.

I just want to teach him a lesson... 4 of his 5 heroes fight with 2 dwarven axes, have resilient, mighty blows and master of blade... Let's show him what it is to play so ''focused''.

I really think I could even best him with ''weaker'' warbands but I'd really like to teach him to PLAY rather than be so competitive. I could have all my gobbos fight with two weapons ... but as the miniatures have spears & Shield, I give them spear & shields.. he do not do that... giving two axes to a miniatures with a shield and a hammer.

Some people needs to learn the hard way... sad but true. I'm not really angry after him... I just want to show him that Mordheim is not a game of RISK and that your characers should have personnalities rather than being just ''peons''...



Leaving the campaign.. not yet... I give myself three games to turns things up... I'll play cheesy as hell... shoot/retreat and send no value henchmen to the front. With all my heroes with rabbit foot (standing after the battle), I'll manage to make money... I checked his roster... I just have to kick out a single gobbo to negate his underdog bonus... I'll do it. He will win the battles... but will not win the exploration phase. When I'll get my huge spider with my chieftain mounting it with a red toof pendant (3 spider attacks +4 gobbo attacks) the fun will begin.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 13:21

You know, a good conversation could do that. Point out some of the overpowered combinations out there ,and how an arms race isn't fun for anyone. The mere threat of abusing nurgle's rot could do the trick.

Another idea is to bring a RP aspect into your campaigns. So, if you are doing a warband v warband campaign...

Before the campaign, each hero gets a backstory and a goal. Decide together what the goals are mechanically. Play 10 games, with 1 point being given for a win, and 1 point being given for achieving a character goal.

Dwarf Noble: Character Goal-Armor Smith (Shields give +2 AS. +1 campaign point for making 6 armor saves against models with S4 or more)

Dwarf Slayers: Heroic Death (May adjust OOA results by +/- 1. +1 campaign point for dying in close combat, the warband may hire a dwarf beardling hero to replace the dead slayer)

Dwarf Engineer: New Invention (After each game where the engineer uses a blackpowder weapon, roll 2d6 and add +1 for each enemy model taken OOA with a blockpowder weapon. If a 12 is rolled, a new invention is created. +1 campaign point, and the engineer may buy 1 weapon from the Nuln list)

Dwarf Henchman Hero: (Not a minor miner: If armed with a mining pick, ie, a two handed weapon, he may tunnel up anywhere on the board. Starting on turn 2, place a marker and on a 4+ the miner comes up there. If he manages to claim a scenario objective this way and wins the game because of it, +1 CP)

===================

There you go. Yeah, winning is still important. If you win all 10 games, you still win the campaign. But these rules encourage him to play with a more diverse list.

Noble: Would really want to use a shield to get his objective point
Engineer: Would be encouraged to run around with blackpowder weapons, probably pistols. And would take skills to compliment them.
Henchman Hero: Would really want to have a double handed weapon.
Slayers: Would actually try to die.


That is 4/6 heroes with benefits for not using two dwarven axes. And each of them would be encouraged to be used in a fluffy manner.

Then do the same with your warband, and you've got a series of games that are not just about winning. Each hero would have his own goals, and you'd be rewarded for acting in fluffy ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Tue 5 Feb 2013 - 13:35

That sounds like a fun fix for the problem. much more fun then the arms race. Though the arms race may still be needed (after talking to) if it doesn't work then use this idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Wed 6 Feb 2013 - 0:34

Perhaps a conversation should include what you and he find fun? In my group the arms race is what we find fun - the making of a skill/equipment combo and then making a counter to that and then a counter to that and so forth. If he is like us and that is the source of his fun then a story-based layer isn't going to help much.

Also, if you guys are mostly a story-oriented group then it is possibly that you aren't pushing him enough to make it worth his while to diversify. We are a competitive group and our dwarf player *has* to vary his weapon loads in order to fight effectively. There is the DH hammer guy for multi-wound monster hunting e.g. possessed, trolls, minotaur, etc. (Trollslayer); the black-powder sniper guy for laying down covering fire (Engineer - brace of handgun*) and the crossbow sniper guy for shooting on the move (TLGT). There is the Swordbreaker guy for fun times with enemy weapons (TLGT), and finally there is the dwarf with dual dwarf axes (Trollslayer) because, well, they are good.

Granted, both his leader and a trollslayer have the dual axes, but 2 out of 6 heroes is not too much and axes are a pretty dwarfy weapon anyway.

*No house-rule for brace of handgun - he just carries two of them Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Wed 6 Feb 2013 - 0:51

Well... I usually play for the fun and I try to have a story around my warbands...

I usually lose just a bit much than I win and it doesn't matter to me... but when I cannot do any damage to my opponent I think this is just boring... I'm really not a bad loser.

However, when I face an opponent with ''clones'' (warriors that are all the same), I think something is missing...

The warband you just described over seems cool and diversified... if my friend had 6 heroes, all of them safe the engineer would fight with dual dwarven axe and have master of blade, resilient, mighty blows... THAT is not fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Wed 6 Feb 2013 - 2:50

If he is not diversifying then *punish* him for it. Resilient only works in melee, not shooting. If all his heroes are melee specialists (and dwarf melee specialists at that) then fill him full of arrows. Quick-shooting crossbows, longbows with hunting arrows (hunting arrows are a good counter to dwarven hardiness.

Without a DHW weapon then something hard like a Vampire with Gromril on a barded horse with a shield and resilient himself should be tricky for him to take down. Or perhaps a Posessed with a claw and 3 tentacles, stuff like that.

The only reason the dwarf warband in my group is diversivied is because he has to in order to stay competative. If it would work for him to be all the same then he would to that in a heart-beat. Perhaps if everyone else in the campaign were to bring their A-game he would be forced to diversify?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf overpowered...   Today at 21:12

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