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 Tinkering with Dwarf Warband

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PostSubject: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 26 Dec 2012 - 19:57

Hello! I was wondering if anyone has tinkered with the rules for the Dwarf Treasure Hunter warband?

I'm not talking about radical changes here, but I for one am not a fan of Slayers. I mean, they're unbreakable killing machines with their own skills but I'm honestly not a big fan of them. I was thinking of changing them over to Longbeards but I wanted to see if anyone else has had experience with that.

Important notes:

1. I'm not changing the Warband size.
2. I'm not changing the stats for the other heroes or henchmen.
3. I'm not secretly adding an Organ gun to the warband. (I'll instead obviously add it.....Muahahahahaha!)

Anyone have experience with it?
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 26 Dec 2012 - 21:23

As a Dwarf hater, I naturally have none. I was going to refer you to the poorly named Dwarf Rangers warband, but it follows the usual Dwarf warband heresy and has Troll Slayers as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Thu 27 Dec 2012 - 6:26

Didn't Dwarf Rangers also make the Longbeards a 50 GC henchman unit with WS and BS 5? I was pretty certain that one was broken.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Thu 27 Dec 2012 - 9:34

If your plan to remove slayers and replace them with a new warrior type then you need to take into consideration all things to do with Slayers.
Slayers have no shooting and no armour so your replacement will have to be a lesser warrior to account for this balance.
Slayers as I see it in the warband were meant to be a close combat warrior to weaken the strong shooting phase of the Dwarfs that is also with little staying power (compared to the other dwarfs)

maybe add a Longbeard and a Beardling hero (young blood).
or
add a miner hero (or 2). If you add just one you keep a slayer and you still have 2 close combat heroes that are more dynamic but at the same time the miner could though a weaker hero be able to infiltrate (ground level only) and maybe take another henchmen with him (skill).
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Fri 28 Dec 2012 - 0:10

I am completely with you. Slayers shouldn't be heroes. They seek a heroic death! Heroes stand back and let the henchmen take the charge so they can get the coup-de-grace. The last time I ran a dwarf warband, I "replaced" my slayers with dwarf drunks. Exact same rules as slayers, just different fluff. That, and I got to use models of shirtless dwarfs carrying around kegs.

That said, here is what I would do...

0-1 Noble
0-1 Engineer
0-2 Beardlings
0+ Clansdwarfs
0-5 Thunderers
0-5 Slayers (modified to have Ld 10, so they never 'waste' the upgrade, and can never become warband leader)

Sure, beardlings can take armor and pistols...but with BS 2 that probably isn't that good an option. Prices could stay the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Fri 28 Dec 2012 - 9:00

The problem I see with Beardlings is that they could have shooting skills and then you have a shooting warband that will now get a lot stronger.
I think if your bumping slayers off the hero list then you have to account for that they are CC beast with no shooting and I think that was the intent to balance. making dwarfs a shooting warband that is not 100% shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Fri 28 Dec 2012 - 11:02

Who says that beardlings need to have shooting skills? As henchmen, they get to pick 2 skill categories. As heroes, they start with skill categories. Just give them combat, strength, and if you want to make them 'special', speed (young dwarfs who are more nimble than their older compatriots).

Still pretty easy to keep the balance like that, no? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Fri 28 Dec 2012 - 13:54

I wouldn't give them speed but remember they get special as well.
I am just stating that it is an issue that they too could shoot even with out shooting skills unless you only give them on there equipment list pistols. Then it should not be a bad way to do things.

I think Miners may be a more fluffy option over slayers though.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Fri 28 Dec 2012 - 20:15

Miners could be fun, but with the warband rule all the dwarfs are miners (hence the +1 wyrdstone). and remember this with slayers...

And with beardlings getting speed skills...in Stone and Steel (dwarf book for Warhammer Fantasy RP v1), there is a class called a runebearer, if memory serves. Young dwarfs who run messages between holds. Not the best fighters, not heavily armed or armored, their job is to hide when they see danger and to run fast. Getting the message is all that matters to them. I could imagine that being 'heroic' for a dwarf warband, and having them get the ability to move 9'' would be a boon to the dwarfs in missions that require some speed.

I've played a dwarf warband in five campaigns so far, and in all of them I've found that I hated the scenarios that required speed. It was bad enough having a handicap in re-positioning models during regular games (the warband's weakness), but when I had to get counters or search buildings, then it was horrible. Especially against fast warbands. A runebearer/beardling would be useful for that.

And having two models that are M3 WS3 BS2 Ld8, but with a skill can move 9'' a turn, isn't really game-breaking. Compare it to skaven that can run 18'' a turn with the same skill...or even a normal human that goes 8''.

It would look like this:

1 Noble
1 Engineer
2 Runebearers (Beardlings who can have Strength, Speed and Special skills)

Then again, the only thing 'unbalancing' about this, is that dwarfs would get two heroes, who with the right skills can move 9'' a turn and can get a 5+ WS against shooting. Then again, I found when running dwarfs, that it was best to just hire mercenaries to do this for the stunties, and they could still arguably do the job better than the beardlings.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Mon 31 Dec 2012 - 11:08

The Miners idea in what I was meaning for them to be is infiltrator's (or some variant). There would be no rule for added searching (as you said they have that already) but rather another look at a means to get a more CC guy forward on the board faster. I don't see Miners haveing any shooting (maybe pistols but that's a stretch) but being able to start deep into the board and maybe a piece of special equipment (head lantern) allowing them to the same rules as a lantern but with out the need of one hand (do they need that? if not then scrap the idea).
Ether way we are both looking at a means to have a hero that makes up for the lack of speed that dwarfs have.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Tue 1 Jan 2013 - 12:23

I'm liking the idea of the Runebearers. 9'' dwarves are not game breaking, though it is an area that dwarves normally do not excel in. Hmm...

As for people worried that losing the Slayers and adding a Hero type that has access to shooting skills, I have in the past lost Slayers to wounds and replaced them with Henchmen who LGT and became Heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Tue 1 Jan 2013 - 16:48

Special Rules
* Hard Head (immune to concussion rules)
* Hard to Kill (1-2=knocked down, 3-5=stunned, 6=OOA)
* Hatred (Greenskins, Skaven)
* Expert Miners (+1 wyrdstone found)
* Slow (Only runebearers may take speed skills)


Heroes

1 Noble (as per standard list)

0-1 Craftsman 50gc (Combat, Shooting [engineer only], Strength, Special)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-9
* Choose a trade
- Engineer (+6'' to crossbow range, Dueling Pistols and Dwarf Handguns are 'common' and never use the optional gunpowder rules)
- Brewer (d3+1 models may drink before the game. They become subject to stupidity and become immune to fear. When charging, instead of doubling their M they move at M+d6. If given to a rune-bearer with 'sprint', the runebearer will move Mx2+d6'')
- Smith (+2 on smith's rarity rolls to 'find' dwarf axes and gromril items, gromril armor costs 100gc, heavy armor costs 25gc and light armor costs 10gc)

0-2 Runebearers (30gc) (Strength, Speed, Special)
M-3 WS-3 BS-2 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-8

Henchmen

0+ Clansmen (40gc)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-9

0-5 Thunderers (40gc)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-9

0-5 Slayers (40gc)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-10
* Deathwish (immune to psychology)
* Drifters (may never become heroes. Re-roll 'lads-got-talent')

equipment list for slayers:
Hammer: 3gc
Axe: 5gc
Dwarf Axe: 15gc
Great Axe: 15gc
Gromril Weapons: 2x cost
Throwing Axe: 15gc

New Equipment
* Replace 'pistols with dueling pistols'
* Replace Handguns with 'Dwarf Handguns' (Rare 10, 50gc, 24'' range, S4, AP)

==============================

Why the changes?

(1) To re-iterate, I really don't think that slayers should be heroes, as a slayer-hero is rewarded for sitting back and exploring, not getting a heroic death.

(2) Why should all dwarf warbands have an engineer with them? There are plenty of other honorable trades that would be useful in Mordheim. 3 choices: Engineers for Shooty-Warbands, Brewmasters for CC warbands (or those that find the idea of drunk dwarfs 'funny'), and Smiths for warbands that want heavily armored dwarfs.

(3) Slayers: On paper it may look like slayers are just better than clansmen. But as they can never become heroes, and the warband only starts with 4 heroes, taking slayers could mean for a worse time in a campaign. Beardlings were replaced with slayers as they were effectively swapped from henchmen to heroes. That, and it never felt right to have dwarf warbands use their beardlings as a shield for more valuable warriors. Slayers though? They'd thank you for it!

(4) The warband gets a few options on getting faster movement. A brewer allows the warband to make some "hail-mary" plays, which can catch the enemy off-guard. A major weakness for dwarf warbands is that enemies can park 8'' away and then get the charge in. This at least makes them think twice.

(5) Added hatred in against Skaven. Not only are Skaven a stronger warband than greenskins, but it makes no sense that dwarfs would hate greenskins more than skaven. Both races have been equally horrific to the dwarf race.

(6) Dwarfs invented gunpowder, and they never make anything hastily. As such, why should they get pistols while humans get dueling pistols? I removed pistols and handguns and gave the dwarfs more expensive, but better, gunpowder weapons. Engineers no longer increase blackpowder range.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Tue 1 Jan 2013 - 20:29

@Grumbaki, I generally like your ideas for Slayers as henchmen that cannot become heroes. It makes sense for them to be used as meat shields because they are seeking death in battle. However, I would never choose Slayer henchmen over Clansmen or Thunderers that can be promoted to heroes. Yes they have the Deathwish special rule and higher Leadership but even Clansmen with Leadership 9 will be pretty stubborn in the face of fear making Deathwish a poor choice to balance the Drfiter special rule. I think that you need to make Slayer henchmen cheaper (e.g. 30 / 35gc) or else give them one of the Troll Slayer skills as a special rule (e.g. Ferocious Charge). I believe that your reasoning that a warband that starts with 4 heroes could be hurt by purchasing Slayers would balance out the option of a cheap but powerful henchman unit at least early in a campaign. A cheap price may break the warband late in a campaign though.

Have you seen the Dwarf Guildsmen from Karak Azgal (http://karak-azgal.strike-to-stun.net/KARAK_AZGAL_files/WARBANDS.htm)? That warband has a similar option for choosing different types of Dwarf warbands.

I don't think that Dwarf Handguns would ever be chosen over Crossbows. They are twice the price, rare 10, and have a range that is 6" shorter than Crossbows and 12" shorter than Engineer enhanced Crossbows. I'm not sure whether you have dropped the Prepare Shot and More or Fire special rules. Even if you have dropped these rules though Dwarf Handguns not very useful when compared to Crossbows. Maybe Dwarf Handguns could be S5 or give them the Accuracy special rule like Duelling Pistols. Even then I don't know whether Dwarf Handguns which are rare 10 and 50gc would get them chosen over 25gc and common Crossbows.

Finally, I'd be inclined to make the Brewer special rule add 2D3" rather than D6" as this guarantees up to 6" (4" + 2") for charging rather than a potential minimum of just 5" (4" + 1") while also doubles the chances of charging 10" for the surprise extra distance. As it currently stands with D6" there a 50/50 chance (1", 2" or 3") that the charge distance will be worse than the regular charge distance of 8". With 2D3" there is a 1/3 chance of worse, 1/3 chance of normal and 1/3 chance of better. I would suggest removing stupidity. The drunks in the Osterlander and Horned Hunter warbands both are not stupid but simply get immune to psychology. There is still the potential only rolling 6" for a charge if 2D3" is used or 5", 6", 7" for a charge if a D6" is used resulting in a failed charge which gives some downside to being drunk.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 2 Jan 2013 - 0:26

Thanks for the response. Once I get the chance, I'd really like to test this out, as dwarfs are my first true love when it comes to wargaming.

RationalLemming wrote:
@Grumbaki, I generally like your ideas for Slayers as henchmen that cannot become heroes. It makes sense for them to be used as meat shields because they are seeking death in battle. However, I would never choose Slayer henchmen over Clansmen or Thunderers that can be promoted to heroes. Yes they have the Deathwish special rule and higher Leadership but even Clansmen with Leadership 9 will be pretty stubborn in the face of fear making Deathwish a poor choice to balance the Drfiter special rule. I think that you need to make Slayer henchmen cheaper (e.g. 30 / 35gc) or else give them one of the Troll Slayer skills as a special rule (e.g. Ferocious Charge). I believe that your reasoning that a warband that starts with 4 heroes could be hurt by purchasing Slayers would balance out the option of a cheap but powerful henchman unit at least early in a campaign. A cheap price may break the warband late in a campaign though.

So, what do you think would be the best solution? Perhaps Monster Slayer (4+ to wound). It's what slayers have in WHFB, so it has precedent.

Quote :
Have you seen the Dwarf Guildsmen from Karak Azgal (http://karak-azgal.strike-to-stun.net/KARAK_AZGAL_files/WARBANDS.htm)? That warband has a similar option for choosing different types of Dwarf warbands.

I remember seeing that before, and honestly, I didn't like it. Mostly because of what they did with becoming a slayer. I am a RPer, first and foremost. A dwarf becomes a slayer because of a life-shattering event. Not because "it is frustrating that they didn't get a swing in" or because they got bit in the gibblies by a rat.

That said, thanks for pointing it out. I like what they did with the brewers.

"Brewers: A Dwarf Brewer is always able to produce a barrel of his finest brew prior to each battle. The leader will allow D3 of his heroes to drink before a battle. Nominate the modles to drink and then roll a D6 to determine what type of beer he is offering.

1-2: XXXXXX A strong brew which endows the Dwarf with confidence. The warrior is immune to fear for the duration of the battle.
3-4 Troll Brew Wild and frothy the beer goes to the Dwarf's head filling him with a kind of madness. For the duration of the battle, the warrior is subject to frenzy as described in the Mordheim rulebook.
5-6 Special Brew A yeasty brew with plenty of body to invigorate and strengthen. The warriors Weapon Skill and Strength are both increased by +1 for the duration of the battle. This may temporarily take the statistics above the normal racial maximum but never greater than 10."

Does it look balanced to you? If so, I may just..."borrow" it.

Quote :
I don't think that Dwarf Handguns would ever be chosen over Crossbows. They are twice the price, rare 10, and have a range that is 6" shorter than Crossbows and 12" shorter than Engineer enhanced Crossbows. I'm not sure whether you have dropped the Prepare Shot and More or Fire special rules. Even if you have dropped these rules though Dwarf Handguns not very useful when compared to Crossbows. Maybe Dwarf Handguns could be S5 or give them the Accuracy special rule like Duelling Pistols. Even then I don't know whether Dwarf Handguns which are rare 10 and 50gc would get them chosen over 25gc and common Crossbows.

The basic idea was to give dwarfs weapons which are worthy of the name dwarven. In WHFB dwarf handguns are 24'', str 4, AP, +1 to hit and move or fire. I'd like to see that in Mordheim too. The only question then, is what is the right cost?

How about this for a re-wording. "When a warband has an engineer, they must choose whether he is a traditionalist or not. If he is a traditionalist, then all crossbows gain +6'' to their range. If not, then dueling pistols are added to the warband roster as well as dwarven handguns. Dueling pistols cost 15/30gc, and dwarven handguns cost 35gc. Dwarven handguns have the same rules as handguns, but give +1 to hit."

This gives the warband a choice of whether to be traditionalist or modern, and makes blackpowder more viable.

Quote :
Finally, I'd be inclined to make the Brewer special rule add 2D3" rather than D6" as this guarantees up to 6" (4" + 2") for charging rather than a potential minimum of just 5" (4" + 1") while also doubles the chances of charging 10" for the surprise extra distance. As it currently stands with D6" there a 50/50 chance (1", 2" or 3") that the charge distance will be worse than the regular charge distance of 8". With 2D3" there is a 1/3 chance of worse, 1/3 chance of normal and 1/3 chance of better. I would suggest removing stupidity. The drunks in the Osterlander and Horned Hunter warbands both are not stupid but simply get immune to psychology. There is still the potential only rolling 6" for a charge if 2D3" is used or 5", 6", 7" for a charge if a D6" is used resulting in a failed charge which gives some downside to being drunk.

A very good point. Thank you for that. Do you think this would be better for brewers, or the one above?

And finally, for Smiths...

I was thinking that many groups have 'armor fixes' that would make them moot. Would this be overpowered?

As long as a dwarf warband has a smith, any model wearing any armor besides toughened leathers may not have his save modified to be worse than a 5+ (6+ in the case of light armor) This includes critical hits.

Armor still stays expensive, but with this upgrade it may become worth buying. Especially for heroes. I could even see warbands springing for light armor for henchmen if there is a smith in the warband.

The hope is that through this, there would be three viable ways to play a dwarf warband. Brewers tend to be more offensive, smiths defensive, and engineers shooty.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 2 Jan 2013 - 3:21

Grumbaki wrote:
So, what do you think would be the best solution? Perhaps Monster Slayer (4+ to wound). It's what slayers have in WHFB, so it has precedent.
I don't know very much about WHFB but if Slayers normally have Monster Slayer than that is probably a good option while keeping them at 40gc. I am curious why you chose to raise their Leadership up to 10 from 9. You said that it was not to waste the upgrade so was it to allow them to reroll that characteristic increase if it was rolled for an advance?

Grumbaki wrote:
I remember seeing that before, and honestly, I didn't like it. Mostly because of what they did with becoming a slayer. I am a RPer, first and foremost. A dwarf becomes a slayer because of a life-shattering event. Not because "it is frustrating that they didn't get a swing in" or because they got bit in the gibblies by a rat.

That said, thanks for pointing it out. I like what they did with the brewers.

"Brewers: A Dwarf Brewer is always able to produce a barrel of his finest brew prior to each battle. The leader will allow D3 of his heroes to drink before a battle. Nominate the modles to drink and then roll a D6 to determine what type of beer he is offering.

1-2: XXXXXX A strong brew which endows the Dwarf with confidence. The warrior is immune to fear for the duration of the battle.
3-4 Troll Brew Wild and frothy the beer goes to the Dwarf's head filling him with a kind of madness. For the duration of the battle, the warrior is subject to frenzy as described in the Mordheim rulebook.
5-6 Special Brew A yeasty brew with plenty of body to invigorate and strengthen. The warriors Weapon Skill and Strength are both increased by +1 for the duration of the battle. This may temporarily take the statistics above the normal racial maximum but never greater than 10."

Does it look balanced to you? If so, I may just..."borrow" it.
I have no problems with those rules so if you like them then definitely "borrow" / "steal" them. pirat

Grumbaki wrote:
The basic idea was to give dwarfs weapons which are worthy of the name dwarven. In WHFB dwarf handguns are 24'', str 4, AP, +1 to hit and move or fire. I'd like to see that in Mordheim too. The only question then, is what is the right cost?

How about this for a re-wording. "When a warband has an engineer, they must choose whether he is a traditionalist or not. If he is a traditionalist, then all crossbows gain +6'' to their range. If not, then dueling pistols are added to the warband roster as well as dwarven handguns. Dueling pistols cost 15/30gc, and dwarven handguns cost 35gc. Dwarven handguns have the same rules as handguns, but give +1 to hit."

This gives the warband a choice of whether to be traditionalist or modern, and makes blackpowder more viable.
I don't like the idea of having two types of Engineers. It just adds a lot of complexity that (if nothing else) would require so much extra testing to balance well. Smile I can't offer you any options at this point though but I'll keep thinking and maybe someone else might pitch in an idea.

Grumbaki wrote:
A very good point. Thank you for that. Do you think this would be better for brewers, or the one above?
I don't mind your rules or the rules from Karak Azgal. Choose the ones that you prefer. In some ways I'd lean towards the Karak Azgal rules just because they have been done before and I like to keep similar ideas aligned. That's just me probably being a bit silly though. Wink

Grumbaki wrote:
And finally, for Smiths...

I was thinking that many groups have 'armor fixes' that would make them moot. Would this be overpowered?

As long as a dwarf warband has a smith, any model wearing any armor besides toughened leathers may not have his save modified to be worse than a 5+ (6+ in the case of light armor) This includes critical hits.

Armor still stays expensive, but with this upgrade it may become worth buying. Especially for heroes. I could even see warbands springing for light armor for henchmen if there is a smith in the warband.
I like the direction that you are taking. I think that you have come up with rules that would work with the standard armour rules and with most/all armour house rules. I don't like that critical hits cannot negate the Armour Save though. Having the possibility for a permanent, unmodifiable 5+ save against wounds in addition to Hard to Kill feels a bit too much to me and wouldn't be fun to play against.

Maybe tweak it slightly...
As long as a dwarf warband has a Smith, any model wearing Gromril Armor may not have his save modified to be worse than a 5+ and any model wearing other types of Heavy Armour or Light Armour may not have his save modified to be worse than a 6+. Also, Gromril Armour will still provide a 6+ save against any effect that would normally negate armour saves.
This means that Gromril Armour is still very expensive and rare but is quite a bit better than other types of body amour when there is a Smith in the warband. Normal Heavy Armour and Light Armour also gets a boost. It would be likely that a warband with a Smith would be smaller than a warband with an Engineer or with a Brewer as the Smith warband player would keep saving for Gromril Armour.

Grumbaki wrote:
The hope is that through this, there would be three viable ways to play a dwarf warband. Brewers tend to be more offensive, smiths defensive, and engineers shooty.
If you could pull off rules for three varients that achieve the above goals then I think that will be awesome. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 2 Jan 2013 - 5:30

a Slayer is a burden and an honour at the same time.
They actively search for death and not fortune as the rest of the dwarfs.

I would like to make them 10 gold more expensive and if he is killed by an enemy with more than 1 wound the warband gets 15 gold else they get only 10 gold. The helped a slayer to fulfill his deed and are rewarded by other dwarfs for their honoured help.

regarding the equipment:
These dwarfs are treasure hunters, they are hunting the treasure and not having the treasure already. The good equipment is for rich dwarfs and respected soldiers. They go to Mordheim. No sane dwarf/human would ever go there if he is not desperate and if you are desperate you normaly have not some of the best weapons of the dwarfen realm with you.

Edit:
If you inlcude objectives, you could give them access to such weapons later if they get rich and famous.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 2 Jan 2013 - 11:08

Smith: RL has a good view of it there I think.

Engineer: I think the best thing is leave the Dwarf handgun and deuling pistols on the equipment list.
edit the Dwarf Handgun sum to make it a viable weapon; as said give it accuracy would be a big deal. Maybe also remove the Move or Shoot rule?
Give the Engineer 2 rules... +6" to X-bows, and take the rarity rule from Nuln.
Quote :
Impeccable Care
Amongst one of the first things that the students are taught is to take proper care of their equipment and the right way to perform that maintenance. Once they have mastered this function, they learn to repair the same weapons should they become damaged and because of this they can buy such black powder weapons on the cheap and quickly return them to good working order. As a result they can buy these weapons at a fairly reduced price! They can ALWAYS use the reduced cost for black powder weapons listed in their starting Equipment List, and they gain an additional +2 on rare rolls to find any black powder weapons since people donít mind selling broken guns!
maybe just adjust it to 1 gun per post battle as only the Enginees can find it at such a low rarity and repair only one gun per post game.
This will give fire arms a real boost in game terms to the dwarfs but not greater then x-bows or worse then them.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Wed 2 Jan 2013 - 23:11

Thanks for all of the input! How is this as a version 2?

Special Rules
* Hard Head (immune to concussion rules)
* Hard to Kill (1-2=knocked down, 3-5=stunned, 6=OOA)
* Armor (no movement penalty for heavy armor and shield)
* Hatred (Greenskins, Skaven)
* Expert Miners (+1 wyrdstone found)
* Slow (Only runebearers may take speed skills)
* Trade Skills: For the craftsman, choose 1 trade at warband creation

Smith wrote:
As long as a dwarf warband has a Smith, any model wearing Gromril Armor may not have his save modified to be worse than a 5+ and any model wearing other types of Heavy Armour or Light Armour may not have his save modified to be worse than a 6+. Also, Gromril Armour will still provide a 6+ save against any effect that would normally negate armour saves.

Brewer wrote:
1-2: XXXXXX A strong brew which endows the Dwarf with confidence. The warrior is immune to fear for the duration of the battle.
3-4 Troll Brew Wild and frothy the beer goes to the Dwarf's head filling him with a kind of madness. For the duration of the battle, the warrior is subject to frenzy as described in the Mordheim rulebook.
5-6 Special Brew A yeasty brew with plenty of body to invigorate and strengthen. The warriors Weapon Skill and Strength are both increased by +1 for the duration of the battle. This may temporarily take the statistics above the normal racial maximum but never greater than 10

Engineer wrote:
Impeccable Care
Amongst one of the first things that engineers are taught is to take proper care of their equipment and the right way to perform that maintenance. Once they have mastered this function, they learn to repair the same weapons should they become damaged and because of this they can buy such black powder weapons on the cheap and quickly return them to good working order.

(1)
As a result they can buy these weapons at a fairly reduced price! They can ALWAYS use the reduced cost for black powder weapons listed in their starting Equipment List, and they gain an additional +2 on rare rolls to find any black powder weapons since people donít mind selling broken guns!

(2)
+6'' Crossbow Range


Heroes

1 Noble 85gc
M3 WS5 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
-Leader

0-1 Craftsman 50gc (Combat, Shooting [engineer only], Strength, Special)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-9
-Engineers start with the skill Hunter (Do not need to reload [dwarven] handguns)

0-2 Runebearers (30gc) (Strength, Speed, Special)
M-3 WS-3 BS-2 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-8


Henchmen

0+ Clansmen (40gc)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-9

0-5 Thunderers (40gc)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-9
-Hunter (do not need to reload [dwarven] handguns)

0-5 Slayers (40gc)
M-3 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-4 W-1 I-2 A-1 Ld-10
* Deathwish (immune to psychology)
* Drifters (may never become heroes. Re-roll 'lads-got-talent')
* Monster Slayers (always need a 4+ to wound, unless otherwise better)


New Equipment
* Replace Pistols with Dueling Pistols (25gc, 50gc for a brace)
* Replace Handguns with Dwarven Handguns (45gc, Range: 24'', S4, AP, +1 to hit)*
(Post Startup, if you don't have an Engineer, Dwarven Handguns are Rare 10 and cost 50gc)

Slayer Equipment List
Hammer: 3gc
Axe: 5gc
Dwarf Axe: 15gc
Great Axe: 15gc
Gromril Weapons: 2x cost
Throwing Axe: 15gc



* Dueling pistols cost +10gc, have +3'' range and +1 to hit. So dwarven handguns should be roughly the same. But as the Engineer rule normally gives +3'' to pistols and +6'' to crossbows, I just upped the dwarven handgun range to 30'', to put it on par with crossbows. The rarity was kept the same as that of dueling pistols. In effect, it makes both just standard dwarf-work, with normal pistols being human made.

Note, as they still aren't as good as crossbows, Engineers and Thunderers start with the skill Hunter. So now, dwarven handguns give +1 to hit and AP for +20gc. So you can go cheap and get crossbows with a range of 30'' (36'' with an engineer), or pay a bit more and get the above bonuses. And if you have an engineer, getting your hands on dwarven handguns will be easier, and they will stay cheaper.


Last edited by Grumbaki on Thu 3 Jan 2013 - 0:22; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Thu 3 Jan 2013 - 0:03

Saranor wrote:
a Slayer is a burden and an honour at the same time.
They actively search for death and not fortune as the rest of the dwarfs.

I would like to make them 10 gold more expensive and if he is killed by an enemy with more than 1 wound the warband gets 15 gold else they get only 10 gold. The helped a slayer to fulfill his deed and are rewarded by other dwarfs for their honoured help.

regarding the equipment:
These dwarfs are treasure hunters, they are hunting the treasure and not having the treasure already. The good equipment is for rich dwarfs and respected soldiers. They go to Mordheim. No sane dwarf/human would ever go there if he is not desperate and if you are desperate you normaly have not some of the best weapons of the dwarfen realm with you.

Edit:
If you inlcude objectives, you could give them access to such weapons later if they get rich and famous.

I figured that your post deserves its own seperate posts. On equipment, I would usually agree with you. But dwarfs never do anything half-arsed. No clan worth its salt would send a warrior into battle in anything but the finest. And even a dwarf down on his luck would have his family arms and armor. Especially when one of the company's trade is the making of such arms. If anything, dwarfs should be a warband of high quality equipment and low numbers. But once again, for any warband besides dwarfs I'd agree with you.

And with slayers...I like the idea. I just find it a bit complicated. I already feel kind of bad having 3 special rules for the slayers. Also, with this rule is makes them 50gc to buy at first, with 40gc thereafter (or 35 if you get lucky). It's a bit of extra book-keeping, and I think that the WHFB rule of 4+ to wound is simpler.

Rationallemming wrote:
I am curious why you chose to raise their Leadership up to 10 from 9. You said that it was not to waste the upgrade so was it to allow them to reroll that characteristic increase if it was rolled for an advance?

Yup, it's for that reason. What does Ld10 give a slayer? Nothing at all. If the advance is rolled, it is wasted. It is for this reason that Flagellants start with Ld10. I also added throwing axes to their list, just so BS isn't wasted. That, and 15gc for a throwing weapon, that can never be boosted with knife fighter/eagle eyes is really expensive. However, it could be effective to have a screen of slayers who run forward, throw their axes, and then receive the charge.

I recently ran a witch hunter warband. For a flagellant group, their first advance was +1 WS. Their second advance was...+1 BS. A wasted advance, which really does suck. I also hated it when my slayers got +1 Ld, as it didn't even help with fear tests. Sure, if a group allows it, there are some equipment pieces that use Ld, but for henchmen slayers? Bleh.
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PostSubject: Re: Tinkering with Dwarf Warband   Sun 6 Jan 2013 - 14:25

Sounds good. Now we need to see how they go in play testing. Very Happy
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