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 Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??

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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 8:10

I'm finishing my Merchant caravan warband by now and I just wondered if I MUST carry the stage coach to the fight or if I can leave it aside for battles.

Indeed, I think its not worth the risk to bring it if you can leave it ''at home''. Losing the wagon can represent the death of the warband due to his high cost and its contain. And its a very tempting target for all range attackers of the opponent (destroying it can bring A LOT of income). Its not so hard to destroy if youre lucky and hit the wheels or the horses.

What are the rules for this ?



Last edited by Goglutin on Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 22:14; edited 1 time in total
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 9:44

I can't quote any rules here but as far as I know the wagon and any/all other members of your warband must join the battle every game unless some rule keeps them away.

Even if you can leave the wagon behind you lose all the benafits of it, mainly the post game trading options. That is the main reason to take this warband anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 20:49

I don't believe the authors of the game covered the eventuality. The author of the warband might have something to say, although with the title of the thread that is unlikely since it is not warriors you wish to leave behind but a wagon...Specifically the Merchant Caravan's wagon.

The Merchants are one of my least favorite warbands, followed closely by the Black Dwarfs, because of the wagon issue. In this case I too question why you would wish to play the warband it you do not wish to use the wagon. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 21:06

if you read the rules for the trade wagon they talk about how if there is no rider and the band routs the wagon is left behind. i believe the intent is to have the trade wagon in each game. i would never run the caravan if i was in a campaign but they are great to serve as a npc warband
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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 22:12

Well,

I like the merchant caravan because of the ''roleplay'' they can bring to a game. In a narrative campaign they can be fun ( I expect Shocked ).

However, I'm pretty sure the wagon will be the main target of the opponent for the possible income it can get... and if the warband lose his wagon its the end as if you want to have fun with the warband you must ''fill'' it with a lot of things and losing it will represent a BIG BIG BIG loss.

The fact that its a large target make it really easy for range attackers to put it down and protecting it with your warriors is dangerous as it can ''panic'' and trample your own warriors near it.

I just have the wagon to paint and my warband will be finished so I will be able to test it soon... We'll see if I'm right?



I dont think the Black dwarf Engine of chaos have the same issue as it do not represent a so tempting target. It is not filled with valuable and destroying it brings nothing to the opponent. Also, the demon that pull it is much tougher than the horses and that make it harder to put down.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 0:21

I thought the whole point of the warband was protecting the merchants wagon? It isn't much of a caravan without a wagon. Razz

But it does raise an interesting question - is there anything that says either way if you have to bring all your models to every battle? I actually can't remember! study
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 2:32

I agree with Pervavita. If the rules allow you to leave a wagon behind then you don't get any benefit from the wagon either during the battle (e.g. Chaos/Black/Fire Dwarf Engine of Chaos) or in the post battle (e.g. Merchant Caravan Trade Wagon). I personally think that the only time a warband can legally choose to leave something/someone behind is if you are playing with the encampment rules.

Here are some references in rules that talk about leaving wagons behind.

I like the advanced rules from BTB shown below. Personally though I would force the player to put the opulent coach on the table. I'm probably a bit mean spirited though!! Twisted Evil
Quote :
opulent coach
Since the opulent coach (see Mordheim Annual page 16) was written long before the rules for wagons, we suggest that it is treated as a wagon with two draft horses, where the additional 70 gold crowns (100 gc wagon + 2 x 40 gc horses = 180 gold crowns total) spent grants the +3 bonus for finding rare items. With respect to the previous rules whereby an opulent coach must not be placed on the table, we suggest the following. The warband may choose either to leave the opulent coach at their camp or to use the coach in battles. The warband may always use the coach when visiting the merchants after the battle.

The Horrors of the Underground scenario has a special rule that explicitly leaves wagons behind.
Quote :
Going underground: Ridden animals and wagons never enter underground tunnels. If either warband owns any of these, they miss this battle.
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 9:25

Wagon aside why leave warriors away from the battle?
Your warband rating doesn't go down for this as the other warband doesn't know that "Timmy is sitting this one out"... thus less under dog chance
You rout at the lower number as your guys know Timmy is sitting this one out and count as a smaller warband for the rout test.
The guy who isn't there gains no exp.
The guy who sits it out is still going to want his cut.

So it has no reason to sit out a warband member as it only hurts your warband or helps the other guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 9:40

True indeed...

This doesn't answer for the wagon tough...
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 9:49

@Pervavita:

What about the guy who's leg injuries are so bad that he holds up the warband in the "Get from here to there" missions, or the guy who is mad and keeps attacking friendly warband members?

I'd consider leaving them at camp....
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 10:56

for the slow guy, i see your point.
for the Mad guy who keeps attacking your own guys... I don't know if there is a rule other then Animosity for that. But in any regard it sounds like a liability for all missions and you let him go.

In the end I don't think there is an offical rule on this and I would say based on the way the rules are writen that the intent is you bring your full warband every game unless they are subject to rules that specify they miss the game.

And no that didn't answer for the wagon; but if you are not bringing the wagon into the battle then you can't use it's rules and that brings up... why play that warband if your going to not use it's primary function... Otherwise your just a weaker warband then all others that starts with even less gold then anyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 10:59

Erhhh.. well... the wagon only offers an advantage to get rare items ''the easy way''... so If I see it in this angle I'd leave it ''at home'' about 2/3 of the time.

But hey ! That sound like some kind of ''compromise'' ! LOL

We're getting to it fellows...
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 14:08

An advantage if you are playing BTB and have a chaos artifact is that you can leave the chaos artifact in the trade wagon instead of nerfing one of your heroes. The trade wagon would need to be in the battle though for this benefit.

Another idea that Cianty has mentioned is that he uses the trade wagon as a mobile shooting platform. Just build it at a height of 2" and have a few archers standing on top and they'll always be able to pick their target from anywhere in the battlefield (with the obligatory -1 to hit if the trage wagon moved that turn of course). This is especially useful for a wilderness campaign like EiF and BTB where there may be few or no buildings and only limited options for finding elevation.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Tue 13 Nov 2012 - 14:21

Also the Merchent Caravan special rules of "Trade", "Rarity", and "Open for Business" reffer to the wagon's storage as well.
Thus all the special rules of the warband would be pointless if the wagon is not in the battle (at risk).
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Wed 14 Nov 2012 - 14:13

Not reading through the entire thread but...

I thought it would be clear from the rules that you MUST buy a wagon, just like you must buy a warband leader. And when own one you obviously use in your battles. The entire point of the warband is that you have your warband stash in your wagon and have to protect that wagon during a campaign (especially a BTB campaign).

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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Thu 22 Nov 2012 - 22:13


Ya I do see the same problem with the wagons. Cost a lot, very little effective contribution and very fragile. Still I was interested in running a Merchant Caravan to see if it can be done.

I guess the trick will be to maximize profits in any way possible and built up a maximum equiped defensive warband. Enhanced by Hired Swords, I think it can be done. And yet, one unlucky game where you lose your Wagon and contents and the warband is effectively over, that's not how it is intended...is it.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Thu 22 Nov 2012 - 23:26

Oh.. yes... Hired swords, I forgot about them.

The merchant caravan have good skills and potential to have a big income so they can be a great addition !
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Fri 23 Nov 2012 - 6:33

Ya my high priority list would be.
Cathayan Merchant
Tilean Sharpshooter
Ogre Bodyguard
Halfling Cook ofcourse

We do use the Bloodpact rules where a hired sword can become a Henchmen (does not go for the Merchant by the way) so that might alter your list maybe.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Fri 23 Nov 2012 - 6:55

Yes !!

Also a coachman, a swordsmith and a warlock could be very useful !!!

I'd go like this :

Merchant,
Coachman,
Halfling scout,
Swordsmith,
Ogre,
Warlock (optional)

The ogre is strong but its upkeep is very high... better to have a lot of GC income before getting it...

Also, a trickster priest of ranald instead of a knight vanguard could be very inetresting addition.

Thx for pointing that again... Now I have hopes that my warband will be efficient in battle !
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PostSubject: Re: Leaving the merchants caravan wagon behind ??   Today at 16:18

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