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 Forest wrath - A wood elf warband

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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 11:17

Hmm...

9 arrows per turn you say... I dont think so... you'd need all you warband slots filled to achieve this. A starting shadow warrior warband should be between 6-7 warriors. And its pretty rare all your character have a chance to shoot.

Still, I think at start of a campaign, the shadow warriors have an edge (you're right)... but in long term they are in trouble... have you ever faced a fully armored minotaur (he can climb!) ?

Also, the fact that bows do not get more powerful as the game advance (like close combat) is a real bane for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 11:30

This is an interesting discussion... and I like your logic mind.

I'll know soon as my wood elf warband is heavily based on shadow warriors. So If I end up as a campaign dominator I'll be fixed and I swear I'll come back here to ask for your forgiveness Wink (LOL).
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 11:53

yes I know that 9 shooting won't happen every turn it's why i stated at best 2-3.
Also Beastmen are another high cost warband and will be at roughly the same numbers.
I don't have on hand my Annual for Shadow Warrior cost so can't say if it can happen.

As Elf Bows are a -1AS so helps negate the armour issue comming up.
Add to this Hunting Arrows your going to see more models go OOA once wounds are scored.

Granted nothing but Posion will get them to Strength 4, skills for the SE's later on will make up for this too.
Sniper, Infiltrate, Quick Shot, Trick Shooter, Weapons Expert (X-Bow). Not to forget that there BS goes up making almost all shots land on target (BS 5 henchmen, higher for heroes).
Quick Shot on a Hero with BS of say 6 or 7 can land 2 shots on any target with little trouble and with hunting arrows will once overcomes the Toughness take OOA 50% of the time... meaning Toughness will be the only problem they face (and armour reduced). Knowing that toughness is the only problem for such a hero Dark Venom will be on that heroes arrows every game i can afford/find it making that hero a beast of a sniper bringing low anything. toss weapons expert on him with a crossbow later on and dark venom on his crossbow will mean strength 5 hits that will be 2 per turn going out almost all hitting.

Not saying this will happen fast but I'm simply saying that SE's can become strong with just a few advancments as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 12:01

Shadow warriors never use poison Wink ... distaste for poison rule.

When you have skills, the ennemy too and just one is enough...dodge .

I still stay on my position : they are not overpowered. They are strong but not OVERpowered.

The low warband limit (12), the high cost, and the necessity to have them skillfull make them just above average. When you lose a sniper with 3-4 skills and 150 GC of equipment (cloak, elf bow, hunting arrows,CC weapons) its more ''hurtful'' than losing a Gor with 3-4 skills too (usually no armor with two CC weapons).
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 12:32

In french we have a word for what you describe here frog : ''Impondérable''. Which mean that you always fails to ''mesure'' evey aspects of a situation... personnaly I'd say... shit happens.

Its so true that the battlefield determine a lot. In a heavy building area, shadow warriors are not at their best... however, on open field they are a force.

Keeping that in mind, in Mordheim (dense area), they are ''in danger'' while if you play BTB they are at their best (snowfields, mountains).

If they can reach high places with a clear LOS they are a real danger, but within a city with many covers and corners they are not.

Animals are always a double-edged blade. They cost nothing but they lack in abililies (in our game we allow some to ''jump'' up to 2'' (wolves, dogs) and some to climb (rats)). Still they remain easy to knock out compared to other warriors and as the campaign advance they become nothing more than cannon fodders.

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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 12:33

no poison. ok, didn't think they had that rule. i know a few have that rule but forgot they did.

I understand on the skills, I was saying that in regard to the counter of later in the game when the beastmen start getting skills too.

In any regard as I have never played with or against Beastmen they could be one of the few warbands that SE's have trouble with. Compared to other warbands though there is little that can stand up to them. Dwarves, O&G, and Possessed (the other 3 high toughness Warbands) I have played against SE's and it is not a pleasent experiance for any of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 12:42

Ohh... so you never had to meet the frenzy armored minotaur.. now I undersand.

A beast with 6 x 5S attacks and a save 4+ - shield, heavy armour (3+ in our games)...

Its a real bane... once, I had 3 heroes OOA by a frenzy minotaur in single round. 2 of them died and the other had a leg wound... I was so happy (irony here).

The other games (after starting a new warband) I shot everything at him and he was still standing after 10 hits!!!!

Thrust me, this warband is as powerful as the shadow elves.. its much a matter that fighting cheesy hidden elves is boring while having your chances in CC against brutes is less frustrating.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 12:53

It's also about being able to avoid an enemy and hitting him more often. I6 gives you free reign to leap about in buildings and avoid combat opponents who will invariably have a much poorer ability to climb. Skaven may be able to reach you, but they will be harder pressed to keep their forces hidden due to numbers, resulting in more losses and an earlier rout test. Bows might be S3 but you will land more hits than a crossbower will and be on the move while you do it.

Edit:

Gah, late posting.

Have you seen the errata/latest rules for Beastmen?


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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 12:55

You always fail checks on a roll of 6...

I remember searching for that in the rulebook. So having 6 Initiative is not much better than 5.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:04

That Minotaur I can see as a thing to be feared but so are any and all large models.
The thing though with him like all large targets is they cost a ton and take a lot from the rest of the warband.
That beast you describe is 250 gold (half your starting gold). If you take him to start then you can't max out heroes and most players will see this beast and target other things (the heroes) to force a rout before it reaches them.
so ether you start with full heroes and no armour on this beast, or not all heroes with armour, or you got to hold off on him.
if you hold off you ether have to save some starting gold or save gold in each game you play to afford him.
In any case that you save up gold you are looking at being a weaker warband durring save up for what you hope is a good investment later.
I say hope as he may never become a hero and with T4 and 3 Wounds he can die... though it will be hard to do I admit. But once he dies then he has a 33% chance of being gone forever.
Now will he pay him self off, odds are yes but if he dies your going to be out 250+ gold and experiance on him.
Yes I have never fought against this (but I am starting to get the models for a Beastmen warband) I don't see this as bing something that will turn the tide against the SE's being Over Powered.
Granted as I said the Beastmen could be the one warband that can go toe to toe with the SE's but that is hardly an argument to say that SE's are not OP.
It would be like saying that Witch Hunters are OP because they mop the floor with the Undead. This is not the case, they are able to overcome the Undead's advantage but pair them against Mercs and the Witch Hunters are now a normal warband strength wise.
If only one warband (offical) can beat a warband but no other can it does not make that warband balanced, it means they have a weakness that is only overcome by that other warband.
If your stance is that Beastmen are of the same power or stronger then SE's and SE's are deamed Over Powered (the only warband to go offical then be deamed un offical) then your arguement is more in line with Beastmen also being OP.
Again never playing against them I can't say for sure but Beastmen do not seam OP as they fully lack Range and though they obviously rock in H2H they are not so much more powerfull that they can not be over powered.

Also the SE's have a far better wizard then the Beastmen... probably the best wizard in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:07

Quote :
You always fail checks on a roll of 6...
I know, but it still gives you easy enough capacity to move around. If you're scared of taking Int tests with a shadow warrior, you need help.

Also, the Minotaur has to get frenzied first, avoid it, take out the other members and let the warband's lower Ld do the job.


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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:07

Erata for Beastmen as far as I know only removes Shagy Hide skill.
did I miss something else in there.

The move and Shoot is one of the key stratagies for SE's to play effective. Once the player learns this the SE's game improves a ton.

edit: Ld 7 for the Chief and 6 for all other heroes (other then Centigor) is a big disadvantage to the Beastmen. if you can pull off killing those two heroes it means a vary weak rout check... even if they live it's still a weak rout test.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:15

LOL !!

My arguments is that none is overpowered... they have their own advantages and disadvantages...

I just argue here that the beastmen are not ''hopeless'' against the shadow elves. Noting more.

But the minotaur is a bit stronger than any other huge character.. Equipment & xp makes difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:16

I remember there being something important regarding the skill, though the errata from the gw site only clarifies it, rather than removing it. The minotaur is also a large target, making it easier to hit.

Goglutin wrote:
LOL !!
Belittling your debating rival(s) is not conductive to garnering their respect for you or your argument.

Quote :
My arguments is that none is overpowered... they have their own advantages and disadvantages...
All you say is that they aren't over powered. What is the actual reasoning behind this?

Quote :
But the minotaur is a bit stronger than any other huge character.. Equipment & xp makes difference.
It's Str 4 (troll is Str5), It's T4 (the rat ogre is T5, big difference). A 5+ save, like any other 5+ save, is worth little, and is horribly expensive, putting it up to half starting amount as mentioned. A shield only lowers it's ability to avoid being out manoeuvred and/or reach combat before the opponent deals with it.


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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:17

Shaggy hide gives a 6+ armour save, nothing more... no more two-handed weapons... sorry !

Yes, the minotaur is large !
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:27

ok changed it not removed it sorry (fluff it makes more sense to the name too).

I was not saying or meaning for it to come off as I was thinking you were saying Beastmen are OPed.
I was meaning that if only one offical (non OP) warband can beat a warband that is stated as OPed (as the reason it was removed from the offical list) then that does not make the SE's not OPed. It just means that the Beastmen (in this case) are able to overcome what makes the SE's OP... but if they are the only warband that can do this with ease then it does not change that SE's are OP as no other warband (offical) can do this.

Secound part of what I was saying on being OP is if your saying (as I think your meaning) is that if your saying Beastmen are stronger then SE's then your argument more falls in line with saying that Beastmen are OP and not that SE's are not as it is fact (or as close as can come to it) that SE's are OPed. You don't have to agree with it but it is established fact that they are based on the fact they were removed from the offical list for being too strong and that the vast majority of players agree on it.
From your experiance you see this diffrent and that I would say is because the SE player you played against is a bad SE players (not to mean a bad player) or had some really bad luck with the dice.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:36

Mordheim is a strategy game BUT ... dice are the keys.

You can play the shadow elves and end up as the biggest loser. Dices, strategy, knowledge of the game... they can all offer you a different output.

A few bad rolls can change the output of a battle. Also, in a campaign, you have to know your ennemy and deal with it.

Dice cannot be trusted and fun is the main objective (I guess.. and hope).
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:44

I am the ''know-it-all'' of our group,

I read about everything and most other players did not. I have an advantage.

I'm the one who knows about erratas. I'm the one who know about rules.

They barely took time to read the rulebook... while I spent hours reading tons of materials. This sure have an effect. I often tell other players that they should do this or that in order to make them competitive...

I try to be fair, but a strategy game is a big matter of knowledge. Knowing what you can and cannot do. What you can buy and cannot. What you ennenmy have that you dont....
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 13:51

Rather than arguing about whether or not SWs are overpowered, lets actually look at Wood Elves.

Check out:
This.
This.
This.
And this.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 14:00

yes all ture but balance should be maintained. It is no fun if the only reason you win a game is by good luck. That is the key of what is wrong with SE's being OPed is that in order for a game to be won by the other player is the need for luck (bar strategy) if all other things are equal.

I am a fan of playing to have fun but it's no fun if the game is unbalanced.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 14:04

Dribble Joy is right. The main reason for the SE's talk was to bring up the base line used for these Wood Elves.
End result I say is this. if your using the SE's as your base line then most people will agree that it is an OP list. but if you use another offical list as your base line (Dwarves are probably the closest in many ways) then odds are you will be on the right track.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 14:07

I'm a little bemused as to why Dwarves are a good starting point for an Elf warband. Surely their playstyle is completely different? Or are we talking more about the list construction, stat differences and pricing when compared with human warbands?
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 20 Nov 2012 - 14:14

yes that is how I mean. Not as use them for a role model of how to play.

Example:
4 heroes
*1 leader, 1 unique (enginer, mage, beast master?), 2 champions
-I could see though Leader, mage, Beastmaster, 1 champion (no special abilities).

12 models max

2-3 henchmen styles
-Shooter, H2H, cannon fodder

Yes you could include a "large" model but it would then replace IMHO the H2H option that you have and not the cannon fodder option. Cannon Fodder could be a weak stated model (Beardling, Novice, ext) or animal style animal... Beastmaster has skills to enhance these.

Thats what I mean. Play Style for Wood Elves I would probably mimic Arvlanders more then anyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 15 Jan 2013 - 0:46

Ok,

So here is the latest version.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxEHFxKBRf5VNnowYkRjNVlMREk/edit


I used this Roster for playtesting in 5 fight against Lustria's Lizardmen.

Starting Roster - All 4 heroes and 1 henchmen Waywatcher
Lizardmen - All 4 heroes, 6 skink braves and a saurus brave.

Fight 1 : Skirmish : Victory - I won the battle but one of my wardancer died in result of an injury. Exploration did not brought enough money to buy it back now.

Fight 2 : Skirmish : Defeat - The map was very dense and I barely managed to shoot 2-3 times before being engaged by the two Sauruses. Retreated as soon as possible. No losses. Bought back the Wardancer and kept what was left to buy a second waywatcher later.

Fight 3 : Chance encounter: Crushing victory - The map was not so dense and I could shoot a lot before engaging in close combat. Forced a rout test on round 3. Opponent chose to flee. No loss. Bought a second Waywatcher, a Glade guard, armour for my leader and rabbit foot for 3 heroes with the tremendous 140 gold I won this game.

Fight 4 : Surprise attack (as attacker) : Crushing victory - Forced a rout test on round 3 with half the opponent warband still out of the table. He decided to retire, Bought a Dryad with the money. No loss.

Fight 5 : Occupy : Crushing defeat. - In order to ''occupy'' building I had to get close and the opponent warband at this point had 4 sauruses. The map was dense too So I could not shoot so much before close combat. I fled after My leader, My spellsigner, A Waywatcher and the dryad were down OOA. Losses : spellsigner = dead, Dryad = dead. Did not get much money. Bought back a spellsinger.

In conclusion, For what I see, the warband is not overpowered. I have a good ''shooting phase'' but if the map is dense and I did not put a few OOA before close combat I end up as the big loser. I was always outnumbered and was very lucky with my bows. I managed to score 2-3 critical hits in all my victories. After 5 battle My warband rating is just 26 point higher than my starting rating.

For the next battles, I'll be in better shape to fight. My new spellsinger got stampede of spirit (the old one had geyser strike) as a spell and my leader now have both quickshot and rain of arrows. One of the Waywatcher became a hero too ... so I now have 5 heroes.

I'll update after 4-5 other battles as the ''test campaign'' advance... lets see if the lizarmen manage to steal those lands to the elves ...
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PostSubject: Re: Forest wrath - A wood elf warband   Tue 15 Jan 2013 - 19:32

Dribble Joy wrote:
Rather than arguing about whether or not SWs are overpowered, lets actually look at Wood Elves.

Check out:
This.
This.
This.
And this.

Hey, how about this?

Download:
https://sites.google.com/site/averheimtownwatch/home/files/Experimental%20Asrai%20Wayfarers%20v6.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

Also, in first post:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?334878-Dueling-Wood-Elf-Warbands-If-you-have-the-willpower

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