Dismissing Leader

Per the rules:
RB. Page 78

Quote :

You can also dismiss any warrior in your warband at any time.

So could this mean you could dismiss your leader?

And if so could you promote the new leader have magic if the old one did?

I know this is an odd question but there can become a time in the campaign where it is time to retire the old man... or in favor of getting a LGT guy promoted into the ranks when the roll is made.

You need to have a leader and you cannot dismiss the leader. This is the official ruling and is derived from this wording in every warband.

Quote :

Each <insert warband name> warband must have one <insert leader name>: no more, no less!

Also, the warrior listing always says "1" for the leader instead of "0-1".

I'll use the Marauders of Chaos from BTB as an example (because I don't have the official warbands easily on hand but the wording is the same).

Quote :

Each Marauder warband must have one Chieftain: no more, no less!

Quote :

1 Marauder Chieftain

95 gold crowns to hire

etc, etc, etc...

I understand that but on the flip side the warband does not disband with the death of the leader so by taking what your saying fully they should as the warband can no longer have there "1" said leader.

Except that there are clear rules for what to do in the case of the death of a leader. I am unclear how these rules which cover the death of a leader would be negated by a prohibition against dismissing a leader.

He is betrayed by his band, and the second strongest man takes care on them.

Quote :

He is betrayed by his band, and the second strongest man takes care on them.

And than they can "purchase" another one later
Interesting thng with this leader dismissal. Rulebook doesn't say that you're not allowed to fire your leader.

Quote :

You need to have a leader and you cannot dismiss the leader. This is the official ruling and is derived from this wording in every warband.

True, but it is from "starting the warband" section and it's only considered for warband assembly purposes, there's nothing about dismissing leaders except what Pervavita quoted.

Pervavita wrote:

And if so could you promote the new leader have magic if the old one did?

The mechanism allowing a new leader to learn magic only applies if the old leader dies.

Mordheim rules review v7 wrote:

“If the leader of a Sisters of Sigmar, Possessed or Carnival of Chaos warband dies then their successor will be entitled to learn to use magic in their stead.

I don't like the idea of sacking a leader. I envisage him or her as representing the player. To sack him for some sort of perceived advantage strikes me as gamey and I wouldn't allow it in my campaigns.

What if the leader were to lose 2 eyes (role of 31 on serious injory 2 times)?
The leader is not "dead" but must retire, are you now not allowed to have a magic user leader... or as the rules only apply to the "death of the leader" for getting a new leader is the warband now retired or do you follow the sperit of the rules and still act as if he is dead as per the rules?

In the unlikely event that this happened, I'd say it was a tough break for the player involved, but such is life in Mordheim.

If you are a gentler soul than I am, you might want to house rule a solution with the people you play with.

So you would play it as the warband must retire as per your argument the warband leader can not retire but at the same time the results state the leader must retire; and thus as you can not retire the leader you must retire the full band?

No, my position is that the leader cannot be sacked or voluntarily retire. If he's unlucky enough to be blinded in both eyes, that's a compulsory retirement and somebody else steps up to be leader.

In the case a leader was a mage then would the new leader be able to learn magic?
I say yes
reason being is that I don't think this was something considered with in the rules and goes in line of the sperit of the rules... As per the rules obviously this would only apply to the death of the leader but as above the leader is forced to retire and this also is not covered by the rules so I would treat it the same as the death of the leader. As this was an issue that GW addressed to allow the warband to retain a magic user.

and for logic (obviously does not apply all the time in games) it makes more sense that the leader though blind would teach the new leader how to cast spells/prayers then it does for him on his death bed (battle field?) to with his last breaths call over the new leader (mid battle!) to tell him the secreats of magic.

A warrior can be dismissed at any time. A warband must start with a Leader. After the first game any warrior, including the Leader, can be dismissed for any reason. Usually, it’s because that warrior or Leader is not performing up to standards or has gained some injuries that makes him a hindrance to the team. The new Leader gains the “Leadership” ability, and magic ability if applicable for that warband.

If your Gaming group wont allow you to “retire” your Leader; then take off all his armor, gear, and weapons, give him 2 daggers and run him like a Troll Slayer. Charge anything he can get to, and try to get him killed. If your luck is like mine, he’ll then become the most vicious killer on the table. (Until you decide to keep him. Then he’ll get killed with all his previous equipment on him again.)

Shadowphx wrote:

The new Leader gains ... magic ability if applicable for that warband.

Got a reference for this?

The Errata:
"Death of the Leader" page 177

Quote :

If the leader of a Sisters of Sigmar, Possessed or Carnival of Chaos warband dies then their successor will be entitled to learn to use magic in their stead. The new leader may choose a prayer/spell from the appropriate list, instead of rolling on the Advance table, the first time they are eligible for an advance. After this they are considered to be a wizard/use prayers as appropriate for their warband and use the advance table as normal.

This can with ease be interprited to include ALL warbands with a (base) leader that cast spells as the above only covers the offical warbands.

I was asking for a reference for dismissed leaders not dead ones.

If we keep going around in circles like this, I'm getting off.

Ah, thats what you mean. I thought you were meaning in general.

I think in that case he was simply responding based on how he sees the rules.

In any event if in this case of a blind (or lame for some other reason) leader being dismissed would the new leader be able to use magic?

Also your stating it's a compulsory retirement and is also not covered by the rules; at least no more then it is for you to say you can retire "any" warrior at any time.

Pervavita wrote:

In any event if in this case of a blind (or lame for some other reason) leader being dismissed would the new leader be able to use magic?

Strictly speaking, a dismissed leader's successor does not automatically learn magic. I can, however, see an argument for allowing it as a house rule in the case of a blinded or otherwise badly crippled leader. To allow it in the normal course of events for leaders that simply aren't working out as well as the player would like is, I think, too open to abuse by WAACers.

Pervavita wrote:

Also your stating it's a compulsory retirement and is also not covered by the rules; at least no more then it is for you to say you can retire "any" warrior at any time.

No, it's the that rules say "If the warrior is subsequently blinded in his remaining good eye he
must retire from the warband" and "You can also dismiss any warrior in your warband at any time." I'm also pointing out that they do not allow for the successor of a dismissed leader to learn magic as this only applies if the leader dies.

even a dead leaders successor does not automatically learn magic but thats not the point

True the rules do only state if the Leader is dead about them learning magic but they also don't account for the leader being dismissed on how to chose a new leader.
What I am meaning with this is simply that the rules when writen did not account for this. I would say not because the rules do not allow it (As obviously at the vary least a blind leader must go) but because it was not thought about.
So by deduction you have 3 choices with out having to house rule... as there is a gap in the rules that need filled (you could call that house rules obviously).
1: Treat him as dead and follow all rules as if he did die.
2: disband the full warband with the leader.
3: Go full on RAW; Leader dies and the warband continues with no new leader to fill in his boots with no Leader rule, no new mage, and any other problems that come from no leader.

Obviously #2 is not in the sperit of what the rules intend as by that logic you would also have to disband if the leader dies and that is not the case.
Again Obviously #3 is not the intent of the rules but is if you follow the rules as close as you can is what the rules state you must do.

Do you ask this because of a special occasion that happended in your gaming group or did you stumble upon this and want to make this clear out of interest? As mentioned early and often, this would make one more good case of houseruling.

No I have not experianced this before but the idea came to me and I was interested in seeing if it could be done... Wanted to try an Arvlander merc warband and get the halfling as the boss. Though not something that would be a good idea probably in a real game it did get me thinking on how viable it would be to boot the leader and make some one else the leader.

as to house ruling; thats what i'm more curious about then anything is if it even needs a house rule or just a rules clearing up... and that has lead to where we are now.

catachanfrog wrote:

Quote :

You need to have a leader and you cannot dismiss the leader. This is the official ruling and is derived from this wording in every warband.

True, but it is from "starting the warband" section and it's only considered for warband assembly purposes, there's nothing about dismissing leaders except what Pervavita quoted.

The rules are a bit contradictory and it comes down to which rules trump which. I think that this is a perfect example where clarification from a Rules Review would be nice. Here is a previous discussion which doesn't answer the question but poses some other points for thought.
https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t4847-can-i-slack-my-leader

I disagree with your comment that those rules are just used for warband assembly though (that was also suggested in that other thread). Here is the full section from the rulebook for Mercenary warbands.

Quote :

Choice of warriors
A Mercenary warband must include a minimum of three models. You have 500 gold crowns available to spend. The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.
Captain: Each Mercenary warband must have one Captain: no more, no less!
Champions: Your warband may include up to two Champions.
Youngbloods: Your warband may include up to two Youngbloods.
Warriors: Your warband may include any number of Warriors.
Marksmen: Your warband may include no more than seven Marksmen.
Swordsmen: Your warband may include no more than five Swordsmen.

The only thing in these rule that relates to the starting of a warband is the 500 gold crowns. The rules for a minimum of 3 models and a maximum of 15 models applies throughout the life of the warband and are not stated elsewhere. Therefore the rules for the number of warriors also applies for the full life of the warband. This is why I believe that the wording "no more, no less!" means that a warband leader cannot be officially dismissed. Likewise down in the listing of warrior types that can be in a warband. The reference to "0-2 Champions" applies for the entire life of the warband and not just for the warband creation. Therefore the reference to "1 Mercenary captain" also applies to the entire life of the warband. There are specific rules for the death of a leader provide the ability to not have a leader in the warband by adding a specific exception rule.

I guess without Da Bank or anyone else with rule authority being around it is too hard to say what is the official ruling.

Hmm...

I really think the leader can be dismissed like any other warrior.

Just imagine a situation where you leader is so crippled by injuries that he is no more efficient in battle...

I'd explain it by saying he take his retirement...

Interesting topic!

Fluffwise I would say that the leader is indeed the warrior who represents the one who has assembled the team as it is, and hereby the group cannot exist without the said leader. Though as mutiny on a ship, I would say the leader can be overthrown by other members of the warband and hereby "dismissed".

In regards to the rules, I found this paragraph under the warband section of the rulebook:

rulebook p.46 wrote:

Leader
Every warband must have a leader. He represents you,
the player. He makes the decisions and leads your
warriors through the dark streets of Mordheim.

By this entry, I believe that the decisions are up to the leader, and why would the leader EVER sack himself?

Zero2Hero-DK wrote:

In regards to the rules, I found this paragraph under the warband section of the rulebook:

rulebook p.46 wrote:

Leader
Every warband must have a leader. He represents you,
the player. He makes the decisions and leads your
warriors through the dark streets of Mordheim.

By this entry, I believe that the decisions are up to the leader, and why would the leader EVER sack himself?

I don't want to commit suicide when my leader dies When he leaves or dies, you take the role of the next leader.

This is how I see the whole thing:

1. The leader only can be bought at the beginning.

1. You can also dismiss any warrior in your warband at any time.

1. When the rulebook refers to a dead leader it should say "when the leader leaves the band permanently."

1. When the leader leaves the band permanently a hero of your choice becomes the leader.
   

I don't have experience in leaders with magic so feel free to complete the list.