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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Averland Merc Question   Mon 29 Oct 2012 - 15:39

The Bergjaeger "Set Trap" Rule I have some questions on.

The rules do not state that it can take a model OOA, I am good with this as the rules don't say it and that is clear. But the rules do not state how to decide if the model is "knocked down" or "stunned".
Should it be 1-3 knocked down and 4+ stunned or by the lack of this being made clear can they be taken OOA?
I'm thinking the first option.

Multable targets... As you can only move one model at a time once the first model enters the 2" trap radious do they triger it alone or would other models move in (as most models don't fight/move alone) or would it triger and hit all who would move with in the 2" radious?
I would think it would hit all models in the 2" and would not spring until you move all models into range... and then if not sprung they move on with remander of movement.


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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Mon 29 Oct 2012 - 16:44

Quote :
Should it be 1-3 knocked down and 4+ stunned
I think it's correct (most reasonable).
About trapping multiples - rule (clearly? scratch ) states that when a model triggers a trap it's effect is resolved instantly and trap "expires" after that.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Mon 29 Oct 2012 - 16:54

what i'm meaning is would the model move alone thus triger the trap and then other models can then move threw said area normaly.
To me the rules are not clear on this fully as movement phase is moving all models... I'm having trouble getting what I mean here I think.
It is my movement and there is a trap ahead (or at least I think there is) and I move a warhound forward to trigger the trap and it does... then still in my turn I move the remainder of my warband forward into the same spot/area but they are safe from the trap.
Would this be allowed?
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Mon 29 Oct 2012 - 20:02

Quote :
what i'm meaning is would the model move alone thus triger the trap and then other models can then move threw said area normaly.

The answer to that is yes.

Quote :
To me the rules are not clear on this fully as movement phase is moving all models... I'm having trouble getting what I mean here I think.

I have found that the 'rules are not clear' is a fairly handy excuse for dubious rules interpretations. I'm not sure what you find unclear, but the standard practice is to move each model individually and resolve any special instances that arise with that model before moving another model. (Climbing, jumping over gaps or traps.)

There is nothing in the movement rules that states that ALL models must move at once which would not be practical. Indeed if you read the rule for setting traps--

Quote :
Set Traps: Bergjaeger are expert trappers and hunters and these skills can be put to great use in the ruins of Mordheim. A Bergjaeger may set a trap if he spends a turn doing nothing else (he may not set traps if he’s just recovered from being Knocked Down). Place a marker in base contact with the Bergjaeger. When a model, friend or foe, moves within 2" of the marker he risks setting off the trap – roll a D6. On a score of 3+ he has triggered the trap and suffers a S4 hit (note that the Bergjaeger won’t trigger his own traps). If the trap did not wound the model or it didn’t trigger, the ‘victim’ may finish his move otherwise he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker. Regardless whether the trap was triggered or not, the marker is removed.

You may notice that the rules as written state that the trap is resolved when 'a model' moves within 2" of the marker. I don't understand what isn't clear about this.

Also a model which does not trigger the trap or is not wounded may continue its move which would be difficult if every model had to be moved before the trap could be resolved.

Finally just because the rule does not state that a model can be taken out of action is no reason to interpret the rule to mean that a model can NOT be taken out of action. The trap inflicts a strength 4 hit. If the hit wounds, there are three possible results knocked down, stunned and out of action. A model that is taken out of action is removed from play. A model that is knocked down or stunned is placed where it fell (2" from the marker).
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Tue 30 Oct 2012 - 9:13

On the triggering the trap; I understand what your saying and thats why I am asking as it seams to go against logic but at the same time logic does not always follow game play as you can change targets in the shooting phase if you like.
Not all models move at once but you must declare all movement at the same time and that would imply they are moving at the same time though you can not physically move all your models at the same time.


As to the OOA vs stunned/knocked down results for the trap, the rules state that if wounded the model is ether stunned or knocked down. They do not state being taken OOA. You could imply that it does but as the rules read they do not.
To me the logic is the trap would take models OOA but as it stands the rules don't state it so they are not/should not be taken OOA.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Tue 30 Oct 2012 - 15:01

There are practical limits on how this applies to tabletop game mechanics. Even when declaring all charges before moving you still get to choose the order that all charging models move (trying to avoid failed charges for to other warriors, etc). I think the declaring of charges (note that other movement does not need to be declared first) is more to add a skill element to charging with the chance of mistakes than to simulate everyone moving at the same time.

As for KD, stunned and OOA... it seems to be trying to preempt questions about where to put KD and stunned models (e.g. on the trap, within 2 inches, etc) instead of ruling out OOA. Of course by mentioning two and not the third can raise the very question you are asking
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Tue 30 Oct 2012 - 17:04

I was under the impression that you declared all charges at once regardless. but re reading the rules you are right. That is the core of what my question was about as by my understanding was that though you as the player could not physicaly move all your models at once they were by the rules moving at one time (if that makes sense).
But that is not the case. thx


As to the trap taking models OOA, I would say logic would say that it would take models OOA as this is a battle and I don't see why they would bring/set non leathal traps. But as it does not state anything about OOA and in the context
Quote :
the trap did not wound the model or it didn’t trigger, the ‘victim’ may finish his move otherwise he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker. Regardless whether the trap was triggered or not, the marker is removed.
I don't see how it is leathal.

Lets say the trap is leathal, then the hero who set it would gain the exp for the kill right?
I would think so but want to know others opinion on that as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Tue 30 Oct 2012 - 18:55

I appologize if it seemed as though I was saying the Set Traps rule was well written. It is certainly not. However, if you interpret the information given to mean that the trap can only knock down or stun a model, you must then determine how the result or knocked down or stunned is determined. If you apply the normal rules for injuries the players don't have to make any rulings.

The rule says nothing about not applying results of OoA, just as it says nothing about how to optain results of only knocked down or stunned. It does provide information about what to do if you optain an knocked down or stunned result. This is odd, but doesn't necessarily imply anything beyond the actual information provided.

As for gaining experience, I believe this has been discussed before as this rule draws some divergent opinions. In our group the trapper does not gain the experience since the trap is not a melee, missile or magical attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Wed 31 Oct 2012 - 8:00

"If the trap did not wound the model or it didn’t trigger, the ‘victim’ may finish his move otherwise he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker. Regardless whether the trap was triggered or not, the marker is removed"

I think the interpretation for this is quite straight forward. No wheres does it say that it CAN NOT take an enemy out of action. It just says that KD or Stunned models are placed within 2" of the trap. A model taken OOA would not be placed anywhere, as hes dead, so hes removed. This part just explains what happens to a model if its Not killed, otherwise people would argue that he is placed KD or Stunned at the start of his move, or the end of his move. etc.

If it Doesnt wound the person, the move continues as normal.



Charges are all declared at the same time, but the moves themselves are done independently, one after another. Therefor its possible for one model to move over the trap and trigger it, and the one after him to complete the charge and (presumably) hit the Berjerger.

As for the movement phase, since theres no clear answer, I would use the precedent that since charges can be resolved individually, one after another, moves would be done in the same way. And thus treated the same way.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Wed 31 Oct 2012 - 9:19

I don't mind if the trap can take models OOA and I see that I'm the only one seeing that it can not.
I don't see how ever how that conclusion is drawn. The rules say if not triggered "he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker".
Granted it does not say they can not be taken OOA but it specifies stunnded and knocked down as the only two options for the trap working.

I can go ether way on this as I do see the logic in both but I wanted to be clear on how I'm reading this.

As to exp: well setting the trap it's self is a skilled task just as shooting would be as it takes skill but does not involve direct confrontation. With that said I am leaning to gaining exp from the trap.
Is there a link to that talk? I tried a search and came up with nothing.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Wed 31 Oct 2012 - 9:22

If a trap killed someone, the Berjerger would absolutely get the Exp point. Its his equipment that caused the kill.

If someone argued it, I would argue them ever getting exp from anything besides their fists. lol Sorry, you didnt kill that enemy, the arrow that you shot did. So that arrow gets the XP. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Wed 31 Oct 2012 - 9:31

found link... didn't think to search for "Traps"
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t2273-berg-jaeger-traps?highlight=traps

edit: nevermind that didn't cover the above question of exp beyound one persons opinion. it was more about behind walls and a few other questions later on.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Wed 31 Oct 2012 - 15:07

I know that we're all on the same wavelength so I hope that I'm not flogging a dead horse.

I just had the though that the biggest argument for traps taking a model OOA is that it doesn't explain what to do with the 5-6 roll on the injury table. If not OOA then is 5-6 ignored or is it treated as stunned? I know that rules can sometimes be written badly (this is a case in point) but generally the rules are always very specific of the meaning of rolling on the injury table is changed (e.g. stunned for hammers).
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Wed 31 Oct 2012 - 21:13

Quote :
Is there a link to that talk? I tried a search and came up with nothing

Unfortunately many discussions on this forum take place in threads with innocent names like 'rules question' or 'some questions'. Or worse some one goes off on a tangent and everyone follows. I recall a lengthty discussion of the orc spell Ledz Go hidden away in a thread about spears.

Quote :
If a trap killed someone, the Berjerger would absolutely get the Exp point. Its his equipment that caused the kill.

If someone argued it, I would argue them ever getting exp from anything besides their fists. lol Sorry, you didnt kill that enemy, the arrow that you shot did. So that arrow gets the XP. Smile

The Bergjaeger does not buy his traps so I can't see them as 'equipment'. They are a special rule, sort of nebulous and undefined. Not equipment though. Equipment is listed for each warband and there is no entry for 'traps' in the Averlander equipment list.

I am curious, when a skaven sorcerer uses the spell Children of the Horned Rat do you award the sorcerer exp for every OoA the summoned rats cause? How about when my skink shaman casts a buff spell on another lizard, shouldn't the shaman gain the experience if that buff results in an OoA?

My favorite is when someone suggests that the rider should gain experience for any OoA scored by its mount, or that the owner of a warhound should gain exp for any OoA caused by the hound. Be sure to add those to your lists. Don't want to miss out on any exp.Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Thu 1 Nov 2012 - 9:48

my take on the trap giving the exp is not that it's equipment but rather the trap took skill to set and by that skill it took some one OOA.
now your argument of spells that don't direclty effect the caster can take the same argument but I have to say for keeping it simple that it's a no for them as who is to say it was the buff or the other models own skill that did the kill? Thus it's the model. I would say keep things simple and if the spell effects/makes another model then it's that models exp.
I'm sure all kinds of other situations can be found but in this case it's a direct action of the model that is causing the OOA... though I would not allow a model taken OOA by a burnning building giving exp.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Thu 1 Nov 2012 - 15:39

I agree that bearjager should get experience. After all it is he who sets a trap and it is by his doing that someone dies (if traps actually kills people). It's not the same as with summoned rats cause they are autonomic models with their own stats and rolls. The same is with a brazier or other set-on-fire effect eq. If witch hunters set someone on fire but does not kill him outright, does he gets an ex point when fire finishes someone next turn? I say yes.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Thu 1 Nov 2012 - 21:50

I'd say no to gaining experience officially but I would be open to the potential for (what I consider) house rules. For example, we have a house rule that allows a shooter to get experience if they knock down/stun an enemy that subsequently goes OOA by falling off a ledge.
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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Fri 2 Nov 2012 - 8:26

Von Kurst wrote:

The Bergjaeger does not buy his traps so I can't see them as 'equipment'. They are a special rule, sort of nebulous and undefined. Not equipment though. Equipment is listed for each warband and there is no entry for 'traps' in the Averlander equipment list.

I am curious, when a skaven sorcerer uses the spell Children of the Horned Rat do you award the sorcerer exp for every OoA the summoned rats cause? How about when my skink shaman casts a buff spell on another lizard, shouldn't the shaman gain the experience if that buff results in an OoA?

My favorite is when someone suggests that the rider should gain experience for any OoA scored by its mount, or that the owner of a warhound should gain exp for any OoA caused by the hound. Be sure to add those to your lists. Don't want to miss out on any exp.Twisted Evil


ahh very good points! I like where this discussion is going!

I would argue, that the Berjerger is the model that performed the action to kill the enemy. The effects were just delayed rather than immediate. To me, the trap is just a different form of a shooting attack.

The rats summoned are separate models, as are mounts and warhounds. All have their own statistics and such thus treated like any non-hero model in that regard. regardless of who owns them. The skink spell, well, the rest of your examples were great examples. This one was a bit of a stretch Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Averland Merc Question   Sat 3 Nov 2012 - 4:26

Just a bit.Rolling Eyes
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