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Warshades
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PostSubject: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 9:35

Ok gentlemen and ladies I am in need of your experienced eyes and judgement. We are starting a new BTB campaign and I really wanted to put my classic Chaos Dwarf army to use. So Chaos Dwarfs it is. But the BTB henchmen list is so out of character to me I wanted to redo it to resemble the more classic CD army lists. I already submitted this to my playgroup since we are to start the campaign real soon but really wanted to seek some opinions here to see if I have been fair and balanced.

Heroes are unchanged as in the BTB Chaos Dwarf band.
Added Greenskins from the official Orc Mob band.
Added a Sneaky Git.
Added a Blunderbuss rule for the Chaos Dwarf henchmen.


Ok here goes, the HENCHMEN:

-------------------------------------

0-5 CHAOS DWARFS
40 gold crowns to hire
These resentful creatures toil in the forges of their city stronghold. To boost the production of weapons and Chaos armour in the foundries they set out on expeditions armed with blunderbusses to bolster the labour force kept shackled in pits beneath the earth.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 9

Weapons/Armour: Chaos Dwarfs may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Chaos Dwarf equipment list.
SPECIAL RULES
Blunderbusses: Chaos Dwarfs are so proficient in the creation and use of these hellish devices that they may shoot more then once in a battle. To reload the Chaos Dwarf can't do nothing that turn but move his base move (3).

-------------------------------------

SNEAKY GITS
25 gold crowns to hire
Hobgoblins are such an utterly evil and treacherous race it is hard to imagine a tribe of Hobgoblins whose double dealings and backstabbing is renowned even amongst their own fickle kind. Yet the Sneaky Gits have earned such infamy. Sneaky Gits fight in battle with two long curving knives ideally suited for their backstabbing methods.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 2 1 6

SPECIAL RULES
Poisoned Daggers: Sneaky Gits coat their daggers in poison, including Thrown Knives. 6 's To Hit are an automatic wound with no armor save. (Daggers get a +1 Armor Save)
Animosity: Sneaky Gits are subject to the rules for Animosity (see Special Rules for details).
Lad's Got Talent: Sneaky Gits can choose from the Shooting, Speed and Assassin skill list.

Sneaky Git equipment list
Hand-to-hand combat weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Missile weapons
Throwing Knives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15 gc
Short Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc
Armour
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

-------------------------------------

BLACK ORCS
40 gold crowns to hire
Black Orcs have not been trusted since their nearly disasterous rebellion. However, they are allowed to join slaver bands, as their strength and discipline are useful in forcing their lesser orc and goblin brothers into submission. However, your warband must have at least as many Chaos Dwarf subordinates as it has black orcs -- they are not trusted and must not be allowed to outnumber their Chaos Dwarf superiors.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 4 4 1 3 1 8

Weapons/Armour: Black Orcs may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Orc equipment list.
Special Rules: Since their master do not trust them there can never be more Black Orcs then Chaos Dwarfs.

-------------------------------------

ORC BOYS
25 gold crowns to hire
Orc Boyz are savage and tough. They fear nothing that they can get their bare hands on, though they are even more ignorant and superstitious than most other beings in the Warhammer world. They form the core of any Orc warband.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 4 1 2 1 7

Weapons/Armour: Orc Boys may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Orc equipment list.
Animosity: Orc Boys are subject to the rules for Animosity (see Special Rules for details).

Orc equipment list
Hand-to-hand combat weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Battle axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Morning star . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Two-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Missile weapons
Crossbow. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . 25 gc
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Armour
Heavy armour (Black Orc only) . . . . . . . 20 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

-------------------------------------

GOBLINS
15 gold crowns to hire
Goblins are often used as cannon fodder (as well as a food
source in lean times!) by their larger Orc cousins. They are
usually not as well equipped as Orc Boyz, having to make do
with whatever the Orcs do not want or cannot use.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 2 3 3 3 1 3 1 5

Weapons/Armour: Goblins may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from Goblin equipment list.
SPECIAL RULES
Animosity: Goblin Warriors are subject to the rules for Animosity (see Special Rules for details). Note: A Goblin Warrior who fails his Animosity test and rolls a 1 for the result will never charge an Orc Henchman, though he will still use any missile weapons to attack as normal. Goblins are far too afraid of Orcs to challenge them individually.
Not Orcs: Orcs don’t expect much from non-Orcs, and are therefore not unsettled if Goblins or Cave Squigs break or get cut down in battle. In fact, they expect as much from these weaklings! Therefore, when testing to see if an Orc Warband needs to take a Rout test, each Goblin Warrior or Cave Squig taken out of action only counts as half a model. Therefore, a band of 5 Orcs and 10 Goblins (15 models) would only have to take a test if 4 models fell (4 Orcs or 8 Goblins, or some combination thereof ).
Runts: Goblins may gain experience but if they happen to roll ‘That Lad’s got talent’ they are immediately killed by their Orc overlords for becoming too ‘mouthy’ (remove the Gobbo from the roster).

Goblin equipment list
Hand-to-hand combat weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Club . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Missile weapons
Short bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc

Armour
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 9:36


Sorry the statlines are a bit tricksy to read...
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 9:47

5 unique henchmen groups I think is too many. Most warbands have 2-3 henchmen groups. I think cutting out the Orcs and goblins may fit better. keep the black orks and there rules is fine; though i could see even dumping them.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 11:09

Boo! Hiss!! Wink

This is an army list. If you want to fight military engagements why don't you play some 5th edition Warhammer.

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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 14:39

I can see why you would like to include the greenskins, however I think the easiest way is to use the informant rules and what ever models you like. I believe this was the intent of the BTB team.

As werekin pointed out you are making things needlesly complicated with so many options.

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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 16:20

Pervavita wrote:
5 unique henchmen groups I think is too many. Most warbands have 2-3 henchmen groups. I think cutting out the Orcs and goblins may fit better. keep the black orks and there rules is fine; though i could see even dumping them.

To many, hmm. In principle that doesn't matter does it as long as the goldcost is fair? But if I had to choose, Orcs could go yes, not sure what else. Without the goblins they lose the cheap stuff. Ok lets see what my group says. Thx.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 16:23

werekin wrote:
Boo! Hiss!! Wink

This is an army list. If you want to fight military engagements why don't you play some 5th edition Warhammer.

Regards,

Werekin


This is not a good argument. Mordheim IS a military engagement, be it very small ones. It's not like I am putting down blocks of 30 goblins. Gold cost aand balance is the main issue, and although I do not nescessarily agree too many henchmen options maybe bad for balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 16:25

Alex wrote:
I can see why you would like to include the greenskins, however I think the easiest way is to use the informant rules and what ever models you like. I believe this was the intent of the BTB team.

As werekin pointed out you are making things needlesly complicated with so many options.


Ya I understand the proxy anything you want into an informant but then there is no difference between a goblin or a black orc. Anyway, that was my innitial thought...
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Tue 16 Oct 2012 - 17:32

After some feedback here and from my own group.

- Removed Orc
- Removed Xbow from Black Orc
- Increased Sneaky Git cost to 35
- Removed Blunderbuss rule from Chaos Dwarf (this one is a hard one for me...)
- Small corrected errors in Equipment costs




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0-5 Chaos Dwarfs
40 gold crowns to hire
These resentful creatures toil in the forges of their city stronghold. To boost the production of weapons and Chaos armour in the foundries they set out on expeditions armed with blunderbusses to bolster the labour force kept shackled in pits beneath the earth.

Profile M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld9

Weapons/Armour: Chaos Dwarfs may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Chaos Dwarf equipment list.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sneaky Gits
35 gold crowns to hire
Hobgoblins are such an utterly evil and treacherous race it is hard to imagine a tribe of Hobgoblins whose double dealings and backstabbing is renowned even amongst their own fickle kind. Yet the Sneaky Gits have earned such infamy. Sneaky Gits fight in battle with two long curving knives ideally suited for their backstabbing methods.

Profile M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld6

SPECIAL RULES
Poisoned Daggers: Sneaky Gits coat their daggers in poison, including Thrown Knives. 6 's To Hit are an automatic wound with no armor save. (Daggers get a +1 Armor Save)
Animosity: Sneaky Gits are subject to the rules for Animosity (see Special Rules for details).
Lad's Got Talent: Sneaky Gits can choose from the Shooting, Speed and Assassin skill list.

Sneaky Git equipment list
Hand-to-hand combat weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Missile weapons
Throwing Knives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15 gc
Short Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc
Armour
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Black Orcs
40 gold crowns to hire
Black Orcs have not been trusted since their nearly disasterous rebellion. However, they are allowed to join slaver bands, as their strength and discipline are useful in forcing their lesser orc and goblin brothers into submission. However, your warband must have at least as many Chaos Dwarf subordinates as it has black orcs -- they are not trusted and must not be allowed to outnumber their Chaos Dwarf superiors.

Profile M4 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I3 A1 Ld8

Weapons/Armour: Black Orcs may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Orc equipment list.
Special Rules: Since their master do not trust them there can never be more Black Orcs then Chaos Dwarfs.

Black Orc equipment list
Hand-to-hand combat weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Battle axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Morning star . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Two-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Missile weapons
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Armour
Heavy armour (Black Orc only) . . . . . . . 50gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goblins
15 gold crowns to hire
Goblins are often used as cannon fodder (as well as a food
source in lean times!) by their larger Orc cousins. They are
usually not as well equipped as Orc Boyz, having to make do
with whatever the Orcs do not want or cannot use.

Profile M4 WS2 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld5

Weapons/Armour: Goblins may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from Goblin equipment list.
SPECIAL RULES
Animosity: Goblin Warriors are subject to the rules for Animosity (see Special Rules for details). Note: A Goblin Warrior who fails his Animosity test and rolls a 1 for the result will never charge an Orc Henchman, though he will still use any missile weapons to attack as normal. Goblins are far too afraid of Orcs to challenge them individually.
Not Orcs: Orcs don’t expect much from non-Orcs, and are therefore not unsettled if Goblins or Cave Squigs break or get cut down in battle. In fact, they expect as much from these weaklings! Therefore, when testing to see if an Orc Warband needs to take a Rout test, each Goblin Warrior or Cave Squig taken out of action only counts as half a model. Therefore, a band of 5 Orcs and 10 Goblins (15 models) would only have to take a test if 4 models fell (4 Orcs or 8 Goblins, or some combination thereof ).
Runts: Goblins may gain experience but if they happen to roll ‘That Lad’s got talent’ they are immediately killed by their Orc overlords for becoming too ‘mouthy’ (remove the Gobbo from the roster).

Goblin equipment list
Hand-to-hand combat weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Club . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Missile weapons
Short bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Armour
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Wed 17 Oct 2012 - 1:06

Warbands are not limited to the warband's list of option. The core of the Fire Dwarfs warband was that the retinue would represent a 'warband' taking captives. It's not an orc and goblin mob. It's a contingent of hardened gaolers and their support crew.

Not everyone would want to employ greenskins to get the job done. However, the following options (off the top of my head) are available here to the modeller or tactician who would wish to show grobi the lash!

1. Black Orc Bodyguard - an overseer Hired Sword is available to hire in Nemesis Crown supplement
2. Dark Elf Apprentice Assassin - this Hired Sword is popular with Human and Skaven players, see no reason why the a hobgoblin model could not be used to represent a Sneaky Git, they are assassins after all!
3. Slaver - this Hired Sword could be represented with an orc or goblin miniature.

Rules for blunderbuss are supplied with the Mordheim Rulebook. Any models can be equipped with these.

I for one would like to see a multi-player battle report involving a player using dwarfs of Zharr-Naggrund and another player with a goblin or orc warband. The leader of the Fire Dwarfs would hopefully ensure that the rowdy greenskins submit to his authority under a treaty or truce of some kind. Wink

I am still waiting to see a warband in the gallery done using the new Forge World range, especially one of those marvellous looking Bull Centaurs.

Regards,

Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Wed 17 Oct 2012 - 1:49


Ya we'll see how it turns out, the biggest fear I think people have is that it's making the band stronger but in my opinion having mostly Chaos Dwarfs for henchmen screened by cheapo Informers is stronger if anything.

As for models, I looked at the ForgeWorld range, and they indeed have some amazing stuff. To bad I just need 1 Bull Centaur so it's quite the price tag at 55 BP. Might drop the other 2 on Ebay I guess, hmm. The command group and the Daemonsmiths are great kits for Mordheim. Not a big fan of the Infernal Guard models to be honest. But I did found this guy whose Royal Guard models are great, and some other nice options as well.
http://www.titanwargames.com/shop/dwarves/royal-guard

On the other hand I have all the classic models, and the sheer amount of effort/cost and classic CD awesomeness they have counts for a lot to. Choices choices Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Thu 18 Oct 2012 - 7:49

Quote :
To bad I just need 1 Bull Centaur so it's quite the price tag at 55 BP. Might drop the other 2 on Ebay I guess, hmm.

I can concur that selling off recent Forge World items is easy money. I bought 6 Fimir Warriors and resold 4 of the them (without heads or tails!) and recouped most of my initial outlay. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 21 Oct 2012 - 1:42

My take on it is...

(a) Blunderbusses are powerful. In my current campaign, I have two blunderbusses in my witch hunter warband (thanks to the shooting skill). In the last game, the blunderbusses took 5 models OOA. In the game before that, they took 3 models OOA, which forced a rout test which was subsequently failed, causing the game to end before the other player even got to roll any dice. This is with just two blunderbusses, getting two shots a game.

A chaos dwarf warband can have 7 blunderbusses. If they can reload, then these are automatic hits which go against multiple enemies. If your group doesn't want to face that, I wouldn't push them.

(b) In general, each henchman group should have a specific purpose, and there should be 3ish henchman groups.

Flagellants: Heavy Hitters, expensive
Zealots: Cheap, basic humans that can gain xp
Warhounds: Animals

Swordsmen: Heavy Hitters
Marksmen: Shooters
Warriors: Basic humans

etc.

Given that, if you want to make chaos dwarfs 'more representative', how about do this:

Chaos Dwarfs (0+)
Hogbolins (0+. Have animosity)
Black Orcs (0-5 As they are rebellious, they have animosity. If any get LGT, then they are killed by the chaos dwarfs. Will attack nearby hobgoblins on a failed animosity roll followed by a 1-2, if a hobgobbo is in range)

This gives you Black Orcs as heavy hitters, Hobgoblins as a cheap screen, and chaos dwarfs as basic henchmen.


(c) When making house rules, always err on the side of weakening the warband, not making it stronger.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 21 Oct 2012 - 2:00


Ya actually the final draft, which I haven't posted, is very close to your proposition actually.
Blunderbusses as is.
01- Sneaky Git
0-2 Black Orcs
0-5 Chaos Dwarfs
0+ Goblins

BUT...it's to much hassle, and it causes more irritation then it should, with others and then in turn with me Smile
So I will just play the band as is with only the 2 henchmen, it's not weaker as it is, just less versatile and less as it should be imo. I really loved the Sneaky Git in contrast to the dwarfs I have played.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 21 Oct 2012 - 2:13

Could always just use sneaky gits models. A very simple change is asking your group to let them have animosity + backstabbers (+1 WS when they charge an already engaged model) to "even it out." It's probably not anywhere near enough to balance out the hassle of animosity, but it does give you hobgoblins, while probably making your group happy.

Then perhaps hire (or start off with) a pitfighter and use a black orc model. Voila! Most of the problems solved. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 21 Oct 2012 - 2:15

A few questions actually which I came across in building my band and reading BtB.

1) Can I start with gromril/ithilmar/obsidian weapons (BtB setting ofcourse).
2) Spider Spittle and Manticore Spore, one battle items or permanent upgrades?
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 21 Oct 2012 - 2:18


And ya, there is a few Hired Swords very appropiate, like the Black Orc. We use the bloodpact rules so especially with the Black Orc I hope he makes a pact quickly because he is 40 gc upkeep! Honestly quite expensive...I can buy a new Chaos Dwarf for that, each battle! Slavers and Assasins are very nice but can't pact with them.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 21 Oct 2012 - 2:23

That Pit Fighter as Black Orc idea is not bad actually. Identical stats, aside from a higher inniative. Half the cost and less then half the upkeep.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Wed 24 Oct 2012 - 10:33

1: Unless your warbands list states the item in there equipment list then you can not start with it. Like the standard Dwarf list states you can start with Gromril then you can. Otherwise no you can't.

2: Poison is one time use so I would say these are the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Mon 12 Nov 2012 - 22:27

Personnaly, I always tought that the Informers were hobgoblins slaves with a broken will... As the rules dont mention their race I tink this could be fitting.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sat 17 Nov 2012 - 10:00

I'm intrigued as to why there's BOs in the list at all, unless you're setting it before their escape from the bad lands, which was well before the current timeline.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sat 17 Nov 2012 - 10:15

I am not really well versed in the Chaos Dwarves differences throughout the timeline. I was simply trying to go for a classic set of warriors as they have been used in WHFB since the last official updates in I believe Ravening Hordes.

In the Mordheim resouces section someone placed a very nice CD warband which comes very close to what I intended. But my group is a bit carefull in what they allow me so as it is I simple play the standard BtB Black Dwarfs.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Sun 18 Nov 2012 - 8:10

Black Orcs were created by the CDs as warriors/slaves, but were too independent and unafraid of their masters/creators. They rebelled against them and fled the bad lands to the old world around the time of sigmar (2000 years before when Mordheim is set). At some point during the rebellion they were betrayed by the hobgoblins and the Black Orcs now harbour a bitter hatred for both.

Black Orcs were indeed part of the CD army list, but that was a long long time ago. But hey, you don't have to take BOs in the warband and a campaign could be set before the rebellion.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarfs - Classic   Today at 23:00

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