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 TLGT expansion experiment

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Lord 0
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PostSubject: TLGT expansion experiment   Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 18:09

This is something we haven't even experimented with in my group, but I thought I would put it up here in case anyone else has already tried it. My search-fu didn't pull anything up, but I am not particularly good at that at the best of times.

In any case, the objective is to make henchmen just a bit tougher at the end, but without making them tougher at the start.

We are considering any or all of the following:

If your henchmen group gets TLGT and you already have the maximum heroes then instead of rolling again you may:

a) pick any stat (racial and +1-per-stat maximums still apply) so this would be a way of getting henchmen with +1 W, M, or T.

b) pick any basic or racial skill. Initially I am thinking of letting anyone choose any skill because henchmen only get a total of 5 level-ups anyway so chances are pretty good they will only get a chance to choose 1-3 skills max and even if they got 4-5 skills then that means they have lots of skills with no stats to back them up. Also, henchmen can't use equipment, nor can they either go exploring or looking for rare trade so many of the dubious uses of this aren't possible anyway.

Also thinking of smoothing out the value of level ups for henchmen by pairing S with Ws (so if you choose WS you also get +1S and vice versa) and pairing I with Ld (+1 to one is +1 to both) with normal henchman maxes applying, of course. BS and A would remain as they are because they are marvelous just as they are.

Assuming all these rules are in effect and optimum levelling, what is the most broken henchman you can make? If anyone can make anything particularly horrifying then I will know I need to nerf things in that direction before we start Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 19:41

Wow! I've been thinking about the skills for LGT rolls thing for awhile, I inserted it into BTB style achievement paths for the last campaign but both players who chose that path quit before they reached the activating level. I only allowed quick shot, trick shot and a couple of combat ones as choices though.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 22:04

I am starting with the more open version because I read on a game design thing once that it is better to start with the more potent version and then nerf rather than the other way around so that more people use it and then you bring it down to managable levels rather than noone using it and you buff it until suddenly everyone notices it and uses it to kick ass.

It is going to be interesting, I think. If you make your henchmen too deadly then they will kill the enemy and your heroes won't get enough xp. But if you make them only tanky then your henchmen will be ignored and your heroes will be targeted so you will lose out that way. I am looking forward to seeing where the equilibrium is.

We have a house-rule that necros can use a level-up to roll on the henchman table and apply the increase to any zombies they have so it will be interesting also to see how this affects them.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 1:27

The idea is really interesting.

I would limit this to more experienced henchman. Why? Skaven, Norse and Bretonians start with six heroes. So they get additional to the excellent 6 start heroes the possibility to improve their henchman nearly from the start.

what about not to improve the whole henchman group only to improve one to their group leader, who collects experience like a henchman but rolls on the hero table ( like hired swords) . When a hero dies he can take the hero slot, if the henchman group leader is allowed to. It would not solve the issue that all henchman are bad, but you would gain a further level of command in your warband.

I think this topic really promising.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 3:51

I am not too worried about the skaven situation because pretty much everyone I know (myself included) replaces the nightrunners with verminkin TLGT heroes at the earliest opportunity so they will have the same turnover the other warbands have.

I have not played with or against the Norse, but to my eye it looks similar in that I would imagine at least one of the bondsman heroes would be replaced with a Hunter TLGT, possibly both and maybe even a hunter. That would put them on par with human Mercs that would only need 1 TLGT before they are at hero capacity.

Bretonians I have only played against once so I can't really say, but they seemed mid-tier at best so I am not worried if they get a bit of a buff in not needing a TLGT hero, but it looks as if they would benefit from a TLGT shooter as well so, again, they have the same TLGT turnover as a human Merc warband.

Most merc players I know keep their youngbloods because even though they don't have quite as many stats as a TLGT Swordsman they have access to 3 skill tables and so have better synergies they can build later on.

I like the idea of the leader thing though. Oooh, how about if you roll TLGT and have max heroes then instead of becoming a hero you can upgrade one of the members to a Corporal or Grizzled or Veteran or something and from that point on they roll on the hero level-up and Injury? At that point he goes to his own Henchman group and so can use different equipment from the main group. You can't expand his group by buying anyone new though. Maybe Veterans can use equipment too?
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 4:44

Yeah veteran sound better than henchman group leader.

I think we have a thing going here. Now we need a solution for the non experience getting guys. Basically i think they should no benefit but this would not fair for undeads. But on the other hands they have ghouls. Hmm...

Maybe a limit for ogre and minotaurs and such are also needed or you accept that they will benefit more from this rule.On the other hand. They are not so strong for their costs if you are honest. So i would also let them also become veterans.

What shoud we do with goblins? They basically get killed when they show talent. Maybe they can become veterans instead? Is would benefit the orcs of course but on the other hands orc warbands have in general too less goblins, so it wouldn't be a big advantage.

So lots of discussion points for this veteran rule.


Last edited by SerialMoM on Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 14:23; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 10:16

I like the LGT idea here. I think open ended skills is the way to go so long as the warband can have said skills... much like a new hero getting LGT.

Not sold on the Vetrans idea though.

I am worried about the Minotaur though gaining skills... or worse yet more wounds/toughness.
Though it may not be too bad.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 15:17

@Pervavita: In my group we have used the old rules for the minotaur since they first came out where he could pick a skill from Strength or Combat instead of TLGT and it has never been a problem. Admittedly I have never played with a minotaur with skills, but I have played against a fair few and he is no deadlier than a similarly leveled Ostlander ogre with a few stats and skills under his belt.

Remember, a henchman can only ever get +1 to any stat so at worst it is going to be +1W, +1T. In fact the worst that it could *ever* be would be something like +1S, +1A, Mighty Blow, Strike to Injure and that is legal now anyway. I guess the most resilient you could make him would be +1T, +1W, Resilient, Step Aside. That would let him soak a lot more, but he is still only as deadly as he is now. And by the time he gets that my heroes would be all quickshot, strongman, strike-to-injure, etc. so I am not sure he will that much more of a threat.

Besides, the above is assuming *optimum* levels. I am sure that in the vast majority of cases there will be an unwanted I or Ld in there somewhere, or at the very least a Ws. And on the rare occasion he *does* get an optimum build? Why then he will be a terrible foe that will be taken down after much struggle and many lives lost and will become a cool story for ages, and what do we play this game for, if not to generate cool stories? Very Happy "Remember when you had that unkillable minotaur? Man, that took an alliance of 3 warbands to take down! It was awesome!

At the very least, now the poor bastid might make it to combat in the late campaign after being focus-fired. Quickshotted crossbows can make a *mess* out of a large target.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 15:49

@SerialMoM: I think I agree with your other hand - I don't have a problem with the Minotaur or the Ogre becoming veterans. In the group I play with we use the old minotaur rules where they could choose Strength or Combat skills on TLGT because they couldn't become a hero. Makes them a bit harder, but certainly not un-fun. The ostlander Ogre almost certainly won't become a veteran because if an ogre rolls TLGT then he becomes a fully-fledged hero Very Happy. If my opponent wants to make an ogre a veteran instead of a hero I would have *no* problem with that at all, but if they were new I would probably do the honorable thing and ask "Dude, are you *sure* about that?".

For undead we already have a house-rule that allows the necro to roll on the henchman table and apply those bonuses to any zombie he summons. For example, if he rolls WS and A over two levelups then all his zombies will have +1WS and +1A from now on. This rule would allow the zombies to also gain +W and +T they sorely need to make them less of a speedbump, but I think we would modify the rule to make it that zombies can never become veterans or gain skills.

I think you are right about orc warbands not having enough goblins and part of it is because of the killed-if-they-TLGT rule. I suspect that if goblins became veterans instead of being killed it would encourage orc players to take more goblins instead of only orc henchmen. I must admit I never take goblins because I hate the idea of them getting killed off - especially since I tended to give them spears.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 21:55

Wow, I really like that idea. Might steal it for my campaign. Smile

The worst I can think of is this:

Marskman x7: BS, Quickshot

That would decimate enemy warbands.

Perhaps you could go with the best of both worlds. If a LGT is rolled, the group can roll on the hero chart. Increases the chance of a less than optimal advance, but still gives the chance.
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PostSubject: Re: TLGT expansion experiment   Sun 14 Oct 2012 - 2:00

I will discuus the veteran rule with my group.

I am ally optimistic that we will integrate it and test it for some time.
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