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 Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.

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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 12:32

Quote :
Weapons Master: The Assassin is a master of weapons and may use any weapon he finds. You may purchase weapons for the Assassin just as you would for any other member of your warband. However, unlike other members of your warband, any weapon you give an Assassin is his to keep - he will not give it to another warband member later. In addition, although he knows how to use them, an Assassin will never use a blackpowder weapon as such devices are far too conspicuous in their use for someone in his profession.

Let's say I want to give him a longbow. He already has throwing knives and crossbow pistol - rulebook states that there is only possible to have 2 missle weapons. So:
- Do I have to choose one weapon and exchange it for a longbow?
- Take a longbow in addition to equipment he has?
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 12:38

I would play it one of two ways.
1: he takes the new weapon and sells one of the other weapons and keeps the money (you lose the extra item).
or
2: He stores the other item in his own storage and can only bring 2 into battle each game and you must chose before each battle what he brings in... if he dies all stored items are lost though as he won't share where he hid the items.

Option 1 I think is more in line with the rules and easier though.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 9:14

to abandon any discussion on the other thread..

cant type much, at work.
but
the sword breaker and IA are both official add ons. both appear in the Annual 2002.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 10:54

To be perfectly clear anyting except warbands and hired swords from "latest" errata is unofficial. But that's not the point.
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Alex
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 14:33

You guys have quite an interesting discussion going on. I hope you don't mind me jumping in Smile

Just to clarify, @Catachanfrog - why do you consider the swordbreaker unofficial?
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 15:32

Well, Town Cryer items were not mentioned in errata as "official" (like somebody cares about that Smile ). Of course we do use that items (with exception to sword breaker - because it's nonsense: "hey mr bestigor I just broke your 2handed axe with my fancy sword"). However that's not the point. Discussion we were having was about "weapon master"skill -
Quote :
Weapons Master: The Assassin is a master of weapons and may use any weapon he finds. You may purchase weapons for the Assassin just as you would for any other member of your warband. However, unlike other members of your warband, any weapon you give an Assassin is his to keep - he will not give it to another warband member later. In addition, although he knows how to use them, an Assassin will never use a blackpowder weapon as such devices are far too conspicuous in their use for someone in his profession.
By my reasoning Imperial assassin can be bought ANY weapons (with exception of black powder ones) but they cannot be used by other warband members later. Problem is that assassin already has 2 missle weapons - what happens to one he's not using?
Rulebook:
Quote :
A player cannot buy extra weapons or
equipment for a Hired Sword, and he
cannot sell the Hired Sword’s weapons
or equipment.
Since assassin can be bought extra weapons ("weapon master") and so is exception to that rule, his weapons are either:
a)sold but warband gains no money
b)are "lost"
c)are put to warband stash but only assassin can use them.
What do you think of that?
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 15:58

Sword Breaker is listed in the Annual and as such is offical. If your group allows it or not is up to you but it is offical.

Even then though I agree that this is not the point of the argument on even "if" you can buy the IA a new missle weapon.
The way the IA is writen it implies 2 things.
1: he can be given missile weapons; this is due to a few things.
-It does not specify hand held weapon
-going out of the way to list black powder weapons that are only missle weapons.
2: That you can give him more then 1 (one) weapon
-" You may purchase weapons" means more then one as this is not the posessive use of an "s" at the end of the word... thus it's plural (more then 1).

This being said what the question is how do you handle the IA's means of being able to have more weapons?

It seams aparant that he can have more missile weapons given to him as it does not say he can't but rather says he can...
And per the rules there is no way for him to lose any of the weapons he has.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 15:59

Okay, I don't see why you don't accept the sword breaker but accept the assassin, but that is an other discussion for an other time.

For the weapon master option I would go with A (option B is technicaly the same). It is the easiest and least messy option. Maybe he sells it and maybe not but it is simple and easy to use.

Option C opens up a whole can of worms. It is far to complicated to keep a special stash for the assassins many weapon options. He is a hired sword and should be treated as one. Meaning do not over complicate things.

Usually the simplest option is the best one in Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 16:19

So generaly: are weapons, equipment and skills from Town Cryers "official"? Errata doesn't mention them but if they are I'm more than happy! Very Happy
Quote :
Next to the hilt are two prongs concealed within the blade that can be used to trap an opponent's blade, twisting and snapping it with a single, well time movement.
Sword breaker allows you to destroy: hammers, axes, great weapons, clubs... we just think it's stupid. With that "two concealed prongs" of course.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 16:41

I think those that designate 'official' and 'unofficial' only ever thought in terms of Warbands and Hired Swords. Equipment was beyond their brief. And those folks deemed the Carnival of Chaos and the Arabian Merchant 'official', which is not a recommendation of their soundness of judgement.

The argument that the Sword Breaker is somehow a proof for an interpretation of the Assassins rules strikes me as illogical. The Imperial Assassin was first published in a White Dwarf Town Cryer. The Sword Breaker was published at least a year later if not more. What basis for the Assassins special rules existed in the interim?

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Alex
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Tue 18 Sep 2012 - 16:52

Von Kurst wrote:
I think those that designate 'official' and 'unofficial' only ever thought in terms of Warbands and Hired Swords. Equipment was beyond their brief.


Spot on, in my opinion. I don't think I ever read any erratas for all the equipment published in town cryer.

Von Kurst wrote:
And those folks deemed the Carnival of Chaos and the Arabian Merchant 'official', which is not a recommendation of their soundness of judgement.
Laughing you really don't like the monkey pawn

Von Kurst wrote:
The argument that the Sword Breaker is somehow a proof for an interpretation of the Assassins rules strikes me as illogical. The Imperial Assassin was first published in a White Dwarf Town Cryer. The Sword Breaker was published at least a year later if not more. What basis for the Assassins special rules existed in the interim?


Again you are correct, how annoying Wink
what is your take on the whole assassin - extra gear discussion?
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brokenv
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Wed 19 Sep 2012 - 0:59

One would think the idea of this particular hired sword was one that 'breaks the rule' by allowing you to buy weapons for him and equip him. You can, like nearly everything else in the game, house rule a way to make it work, or live by the letter of the law, which in and of itself has enough problems to cause ceaseless arguments.

You have to ask yourself, do you think the main idea of the Imperial Assassin is that you can buy him things and he can use them, or that you can buy him things and he can't use them. I think this argument is clear, that you can buy him things he can use. Since the creative minds failed to foresee the problems this brings in regards to standard rules, we have to make do with either 1 - He's an assassin and can do what he wants or 2 - He has to choose his weapons before each skirmish that fall in line with the rules.

Justifying things aside, a hiding Imperial Assassin with a bow is a bit of a dick move, and I'd say that you could give him a brace of crossbow pistols without being to dickish.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Wed 19 Sep 2012 - 1:08

Quote :
Justifying things aside, a hiding Imperial Assassin with a bow is a bit of a dick move, and I'd say that you could give him a brace of crossbow pistols without being to dickish.
scratch
Don't get it...
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Wed 19 Sep 2012 - 1:43

Quote :
Hide in Shadows: The Assassin can blend into the shadows so that his opponents will not see him. As long as he is within 1" of a wall or other linear obstacle (hedge, fence, well, etc.), opposing models must pass an Initiative test in order to charge or shoot at him.

An Imperial Assassin that can shoot at long range without being seen or shot at in return without passing a test is a bit dickish imo. Imagine a crossbow in his hands, unleashing 36" S4 attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Wed 19 Sep 2012 - 4:28

Hmm...I would do it anyway Twisted Evil . We will gameplay that skill if it so broken as you say I think it can be replaced by Sniper (erratized) from shadow warriors list (and rob assassin of his coolest skill).
And isn't crosbow 30" and S4(5 with dark venom)?
How about his second skil? Backstabber gives bonus to hit and... worsens a result if he takes someone OoA? I don't understand that +1 to Serious Injury "bonus". Surely they meant justinjuries. Has it been corrected or no?
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Wed 19 Sep 2012 - 18:37

catachanfrog wrote:
Hmm...I would do it anyway Twisted Evil .


I guess it depends on if you play for fun or to compete

catachanfrog wrote:
How about his second skil? Backstabber gives bonus to hit and... worsens a result if he takes someone OoA? I don't understand that +1 to Serious Injury "bonus". Surely they meant justinjuries. Has it been corrected or no?

The rules state quite clearly that it is only to serious injury. It would propably be too powerful otherwise
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Thu 20 Sep 2012 - 2:29

.....
Quote :
It would propably be too powerful otherwise
+1 to hit (after testing) is not so powerful to balance it with serious injuries bonus for your opponent.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Thu 20 Sep 2012 - 5:13

catachanfrog wrote:
.....
+1 to hit (after testing) is not so powerful to balance it with serious injuries bonus for your opponent.

Agree. Diving charge also gives +1 to hit bonus and +1S and there is a rather slim chance that an assassin (or skaven, or elf etc.) would fail his initiative test.
Besides, I always looked upon backstabbing as a single, yet very devastating blow to the unexpecting enemy (quite like thief backstab ability in Baldur's Gate, ah, the memories). Giving enemy a higher chance of survival in post battle sequence seems out of place IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Imperial Assassin - weapon limit.   Thu 20 Sep 2012 - 13:53

I agree that backstabbing should be a high risk high reward, so if you manage a serious injury you are propably taking the victim out of action, how ever if you f**k up you are in trouble Razz

Anyway if you feel that a change is needed just bend the rules so they fit your groups way of playing.
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