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DeathmasterSqueek



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PostSubject: Undead Warband Questions!   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 9:38

Hey Guys I was doing a bit of reading on Undead and I have found alot of people say they are very under powered and weak as the Vampire does all the work and everything else just runs around as blockers is this so? Can you guys share some more info on these guys I am interested in the undead I am just not sure where to start lol
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 12:02

Welcome to the forum!

Undead are strong early campaighn if played right by avoiding shooting and getting into h2h (dogs and Vampire are good archer hunting groups).

long term there problem is that many warbands will be able to avoid your fear causing easier as heroes become immune to fear and also LD goes up all around your warband... also shooting (x-bows) will become more of a threat to take down your higher toughness guys.

As you only have one henchmen group that gains exp (and can get LGT) your opponants will target them first to take them out and thus hamper your growth even more.

Undead can be strong early game but as the campaighn progresses other warbands henchmen will grow in strength well yours stay stagnent.
Undead are not "bad" just on the lower end of the offical warband spectrum.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 13:43

Every Undead player I've met tells me the same thing: Start out with Zombies, but once you can afford them, Ghouls are the way to go! Since they can get XP, they can also get LGT, which gives you more heroes/gold/exploration, etc. Hounds are popular, but expensive, and if you lose one, they can take a while to replace.

I've found the Undead to be pretty strong overall, but they need to be played smart: if you just let your opponent shoot up your slow zombies to force a rout test, you'll lose lots of your battles. However, with fast-movers like Hounds and the Vampire to close quickly and dish out a lot of punishment, this can give you more options.

Never underestimate your dregs. They advance quickly, and you can build a strategy around their advancements/skills you choose for them. Within a dozen or so battles, I've seen a lowly dreg become a close combat beast that was surpassed only by the Vampire!
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 14:36

-Always have (at least try to) two wolves in your list. They have M9 S4 and two attacks on the charge (not mentioning other undead boons). 18" charge range means you can charge everything you like. Pricless in scenarios like wyrdstone hunt or other objective missions.
-Take imperial assassin. Buy one less zombie and give him something to shoot.
-Combine charge of non fear causing models with fear causing ones. Remember: when enemy fails a fear test he needs 6 to hit every enemy (in the same combat of course) not only one that causes fear.
-Always give your vampire heavy armour. Consider giving him a shield. buy him helbard co he can wound almost everyone on 2+/3+ and a mace.
- Wh
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Fri 14 Sep 2012 - 14:46

undead is very flavorful but design-wise they're bugged with only one interesting hero and no henchmen able to use equipment / gain experience

therefore, you may want to look into some alternative house rules

though if you want to powergame them, this is the way to go:

Vampire: Sword + Club
Necromancer: Two Clubs
3x Dregs: Two Clubs
Max out on numbers to prolong rout tests.
As time progresses switch to only ghouls and dire wolves.
only THEN get hired swords.
Ghoul heroes take weapons training and then flails..


in any case your group should allow zombies to run. otherwise they're broken. in the wrong direction. as in useless.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 11:50

Ghoul heros can not use equipment. Ever. regardless of what skills they take. This was clearly outlined in the official errata.
Skills do not superscede special rules.


necromancers should be given a spear, or a sword. clubs have no defensive capabiltiies. This campaign is the first campaign that I gave my Necro the Warrior Wizard skill and the full suit of armor he wears has saved him from death many times. worth the skill point.

Ghouls Ghouls and more Ghouls. abuse them. theyre your only decent henchmen unit. Even without wpns they will become better than Dregs once they get LGT. +1 max toughness and causes fear is better than being able to use a sword. Just make sure to give em the Combat Skill tree, to take Step Aside. Strength would be a good 2nd one too (resilience = T6 ghoul)

The only time you should be taking zombies is when theyre given to you for free from exploration results.

Imperial Assassin is a decent HS to take. not the best IMO, but its good. Ogre bodyguard is best to use those 666 results on, while a Warlock can really add some more firepower into the game. for cheap!


also, while its tempting to send the vampire in Solo.... not always the best bet. in the end, 6's will come up eventually and he will die to just masses of small hits.





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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 13:23

I'll will be advocating Imperial assassin as a most worty addition to undead. Smile
1. High stats. 2 profile attacks at I5 with WS4 and BS4. Not mentioning Ld8
2. Poisons. Dark Venom makes him as strong as pit fighter or ogre
3. Equipment and options. has S4 throwing knifes and S5! crossbow pistol. He can be bought ANY available weapon be it common or rare - he can use them all. That can either make him a) close combat hard hitter (undead henchmen are universally S3 with no boost option and wolves are very expensive), b) supporting high strenght shooter c) both.
4. Assassin Skills. He can be either almost invisible or even more deadly in cc

As I mentioned before he's as strong as ogre but has better WS. He's not large target and can benefit from combined charge (my previos post). Most of all he can be used as mobile sniper with high strenght weapon - and I think that is what undead needs.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 13:35

20gc upkeep for 1 str5 shot a turn at range isnt quite worth it for me.

T4 w/3 wounds = walking shield for vampire. the IA is still a top 3 choice for me, just not the first option. rather level the warlock first, hopefully get some good new spells and a BS upgrade

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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 13:43

also worth noting,

you cant give the IA a crossbow.
max load out for a warrior is 3 close combat weapons and 2 missile weapons. He already has a a pistol and throwing daggers.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 13:59

Quote :
20gc upkeep for 1 str5 shot a turn at range isnt quite worth it for me.
True if you limit him only for shooting which is addition to his ccombat prowess.
Quote :
also worth noting,

you cant give the IA a crossbow.
max load out for a warrior is 3 close combat weapons and 2 missile weapons. He already has a a pistol and throwing daggers.
Yes I can. He must choose however what set of weapons is he using before the battle. The rest goes to his stash.
Quote :
T4 w/3 wounds = walking shield for vampire.
...For 30 gc per battle and 80 at the start. Too expensive. Assassin gives the same (better) possibilities. It's still exp
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 14:04

"However, unlike other members of your warband, any weapon you give an Assassin is his to keep - he will not give it to another warband member later"

R.A.W. - you cant take weapons away from the assassin. Theres no personal stash to put them in, only the warbands stash. Which breaks the rule of "any weapon you give an assassin is his to keep"
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 15:33

Quote :
"However, unlike other members of your warband, any weapon you give an Assassin is his to keep - he will not give it to another warband member later"
That part shows only what happens with extra weapons assassin gets.

Quote :
R.A.W. - you cant take weapons away from the assassin. Theres no personal stash to put them in, only the warbands stash. Which breaks the rule of "any weapon you give an assassin is his to keep"
Well, no sources say that I cannot replace one weapon with another. Even with no "stash", only restriction is the weapon limit. So: if i choose to give him a bow and he already has 2 weapons, bow replaces one weapon - xbow pistol or knives.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 15:33

Zekk wrote:
also, while its tempting to send the vampire in Solo.... not always the best bet. in the end, 6's will come up eventually and he will die to just masses of small hits.

NEVER send the Vampire in unsupported. I've seen this too often to count, and I cannot stress this enough. This is where the Hounds come in. They are the only ones that can match the Vampire for mobility (aside from the Ogre Bodyguard), and when combined, there's not much that can stand up to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 15:53

catachanfrog wrote:

Well, no sources say that I cannot replace one weapon with another. Even with no "stash", only restriction is the weapon limit. So: if i choose to give him a bow and he already has 2 weapons, bow replaces one weapon - xbow pistol or knives.

So the weapons that are being replaced are just automatically destroyed?
nothing like that is even remotely close to being written in the rules. Just says you can give em stuff, but cant take anything away.

The core rules say that you cant give a warrior any more than 2 missile weapons. Theres no side rule for what happens if you Do give them more than two, just that you straight up cant do it. Anything beyond that is a house rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sat 15 Sep 2012 - 19:09

All interesting info i am trying to figure out a good start for me and my little brother who are interested in Mordheim I am not sure where to start my vampire warband or his orcs and goblins warband I have read some reports here on this forum and gone over the rules. what do you guys Recommend for a good start something like a Vampire heavy armor 2x hand weapons 2x wolves a necromancer and lots of ghouls? maybe get a hired sword? as for his Orcs I will post another thread later but if anyone has any info to share on them could you please PM me some info or links to useful threads for them?
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sun 16 Sep 2012 - 5:22

@Zekk
Ok let's try from the beginning.
Quote :
Weapons Master: The Assassin is a master of weapons and may use any weapon he finds. You may purchase weapons for the Assassin just as you would for any other member of your warband. However, unlike other members of your warband, any weapon you give an Assassin is his to keep - he will not give it to another warband member later. In addition, although he knows how to use them, an Assassin will never use a blackpowder weapon as such devices are far too conspicuous in their use for someone in his profession.
Quote :
The Assassin is a master of weapons and may use any weapon he finds.
He can use every weapon he can lay his hands on. Clear.
Quote :
You may purchase weapons for the Assassin just as you would for any other member of your warband.
No explenation needed.
Quote :
However, unlike other members of your warband, any weapon you give an Assassin is his to keep - he will not give it to another warband member later.
This part only ONE thing - that weapons assassin gets are his only - the cannot be used by other members of warband so they cannot be relocated in post battle sequence.
Quote :
In addition, although he knows how to use them, an Assassin will never use a blackpowder weapon as such devices are far too conspicuous in their use for someone in his profession.
This part shows clearly that assassin CAN have shooting weapons other than he already has - otherwise what woud be the point of restricting him to non blackpowder weapons?
So assassin can be bought additional shooty equipment. The only question is, what happens to weapons he's not currently using due to 2 weapons battle limit. It's another grey area and assassin stash was my attempt to solve this problem. That he destroys, throw away weapons he's not using is just nonsense. That's all.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sun 16 Sep 2012 - 5:36

IMO, nothing of relevance happens with weapons that were in assassins possession before he was rearmed by player. I guess that it is pretty clear that rules prohibit players from tampering with mercenaries equipment - so you can replace assassins weapon with something else, but I don't see any way to do anything else. I mean, you can't order assassin to "switch back" after a couple of games - no reallocating equipment for mercs, even if they do have secret stashes. Only option is to buy a new weapon for him, the cunning little bastard.

What exactly assassin does with replaced weapons is his sweet little secret. Maybe he sells them, may be he stores them for future assignments? Nobody will know (until it is too late Smile ), and it is not warband's business.

Oh, and back to the previous discussion
Quote :
All interesting info i am trying to figure out a good start for me and my little brother who are interested in Mordheim I am not sure where to start my vampire warband or his orcs and goblins warband I have read some reports here on this forum and gone over the rules. what do you guys Recommend for a good start something like a Vampire heavy armor 2x hand weapons 2x wolves a necromancer and lots of ghouls? maybe get a hired sword? as for his Orcs I will post another thread later but if anyone has any info to share on them could you please PM me some info or links to useful threads for them?

Well, sounds good - three S4 attacks are a nice thing to have, no sluggish zombies, may be a good idea to arm vampire with a bow (better to have a Bs4 ranged attack than not, but this can be done later in campaign) - IMO thats pretty much the way to go with undead warband. To my great dismay this may be the only way to go, since there is no diversity in that warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Sun 16 Sep 2012 - 5:53

@DeathmasterSqueek Sorry for breaking your thread.
About starting warband.
Vampire
is your best warrior and a leader. He has almost best stats for a hero in Mordheim but is very expensive and after loosing him your warband would be in great disadvantage. Of course you can replace him but 110gc is not easy to find. So I would advise you giving him maximum protection you can afford which is h armour and shield. That gives him very good save of 4+ and 3+ against models with daggers. Remember that he has 2 attacks so even when fighting with shield he would be good fighter. Weapons depends on who you are fighting - when majority is T3 just give him any one handed weapon you like, but when you're fightin warbands like orcs or beastmen give him a weapon booster - helbard or great weapon. It will not only give you better wounding rolls in combat but will also make taking out knocked down warriors easier. Consider giving your vampire a bow. He has BS4 and with bow he can take oportunity shots when not engaged.
Dregs have low stats but that's not as bad as it seems. They have WS2 which looks terrible on the paper but in fact it only makes a difference when your enemy is WS5 model. You're still hitting everything on 4+ and are hit on 3+ by models with higher WS. Beeing hit on 3+ sounds bad but it can be used as an advantage - when you have money, give your dregs swords for parrying. As for other weapons you must decide what you want them to do. Give them clubs so if they wound someone, your other fighters will have increased chances of taking stunned opponent OoA. Give them helbards or great weapons (in addition no other one handed weapon) if you want them to strike hard. Give them bows as soon as they jump to BS3. Always try to charge them with other warriors that cause fear (my previos post).
As f
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 7:07

I played a 50+ game campaign as Undead.

A starting Vampire should just get 2 weapons. It's unlikely anything very bad will happen to them unless you are reckless, and you just need the attacks in the first few games. When you finally get an increase, depending on what rules you are allowing, I would go with swordsman for offensive, as I found getting hits was harder than getting wounds. Leap, Sprint, Transfixing Glare, Step Aside, Dodge, Resilience and Mighty Blow are other options depending on how you play and who your opponents are. Armor and shields are worth using, as the speed penalty isnt as harsh, but I never really bothered cause I got an early toughness increase.

Necro is a tough nut to crack. If you can pick your first spell you can design him to your warband, but if not, you might get stuck with zombie spells in a ghoul warband or 6" spells in your slow zombie warband. Generally, as defensive as you can get until you can upgrade to Warrior Wizard and armor him up. The additional academic skill that allows you to cast 2 spells on a toughness test is quite useful if you can get a toughness upgrade (or can afford to drug his toughness up). Eventually, his spells will be worth the investment when you kill a great hero and turn them into a zombie you can move twice and resurrect. Keeping him alive and giving him options is your goal. To start off, a spear or sword is enough to be defensive, but hiding him behind others is better. Some people give him a bow, I've never wounded anything with a bow on mine.

Dregs suck, but I've found that giving them 2-handers and sending them after knocked-down and stunned models gives them easy points to level-up and get strongman and become useful. Ghouls and vamps are great at knocking down and stunning things, and they can work well together. Armor and shields are great to pile on them as well, but usually you want them covered by henchmen so you can use them in post game. When they die, its not a sad thing, as a ghoul is looking to take their place. You must always have one if you want to trade.

Zombies are great value as fear causing hero protectors that let you rout before losing heroes. Not as good as Witch Hunter dogs in my opinion, but still good. You could make a horde of zombies, but I've found it a waste of value. When you can afford to use Hounds instead of zombies you should.

Hounds are useless except as expensive replacements for zombies once you are cashed up (easy to get to that point in a weaponless henchmen warband). They die easy, they cost a lot, they can't do any objectives and don't gain experience. fear and 2 attacks on a charge at a crappy weaponskill is merely an upgrade to a slow zombie and nothing more in my opinion.

Ghouls are amazing. I buy as many as I can. I try to get 3 hero ghouls. Speed skills help them the most, in my opinion. Strength skills are good, but easily covered with stat increases. Academic skills are an option, too, but not my first as they generally benefit cash that you don't need or take too many skill increases to get value out of. A magic casting ghoul can be fun though. As henchmen, there isn't much to say. Hope you get WS/S/A/I increases and then they stand up pretty well until mid-campaign. After that, you will struggle with henchmen, and it will become tough to find good fodder or crowd softerners. I tried buying wardogs, but it was difficult to keep them as well. Best advice is to grab a bunch of hired swords, keep one group of perfect increase ghouls and then 3-4 zombies/hounds to rout with when things aren't to your favor.

If they let you get the Witch, grab her early. Warlock is ok, but only if you get the right spells for your group. Ogres are great. Imperial Assassin is good, but usually just becomes a target.

If you can get the Crow Master late game, do so. He's pretty overpowered, but late game you will be pretty underpowered if you get unlucky increases.

My vampire died at max xp. They will never be invulnerable, so always keep them protected with help. I usually choose an ogre for this job, as they keep pace, they take shots and they can take a bit of a beating.

Best part of the warband? Stealing other people's heroes. I made a point of aiming for possessed and centaurs and things with high base movement. I neglected scenarios and wyrdstone to get a perfect zombie-hero specimen and it was worth it. A zombie with high movement, good base stats and weapons that resurrects and gets speed assistance is amazingly powerful and keeps you in the game in late campaigns.

Worst part of the warband? Lost your vamp and necro in the same game and suddenly you have to roll a new warband. It happened to me once before (not in my long campaign). Never send a vampire solo into anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 7:08

I forgot Lightning Reflexes for the Vampire. That is always your first/second skill to get.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 9:36

brokenv plays the Undead identically to the way I do. Most campaigns ive played in have hit the 20+ mark, but never 50. Right now in my campaign we're around 15 games, and my vamp is 2 xp away from his last upgrade.

Lightning Reflexes has saved him from certain death SO many times, its unbelievable. I try to go pure defensive at first with him, and add offensive skills later on. Glass cannons are ok at the start, but eventually become a liability.

unfortunately, I havent gotten any wound / attack stat increases ALL campaign, so Ive been burning the extra skill slots on things like Combat master, and Pit Fighter. skills that increase amount of attacks. Normally I wouldnt do this, but it was the only way to keep him competitive.

Wolves useless.. yep. they die far to easily and expensive as all hell to replace. More often than not, shooters will see the wolves and the Vamp advancing, and seeing as killing the vamp would be impossible , they shoot the wolves instead and your vamp ends up going in solo anyways. (at least, if youre playing competant players this is what will happen). Happened to me a lot playing as Beastmen, when my tooled up Centigor would charge in with the chaos warhounds.





And as for the IA thing, about the blackpowder reference. There are ways to lose items in mordheim. so its possible for the IA to lose his gear. At which point you could replace the missile weapons. When it comes to house rules, my group tries to avoid them as much as possible, or keep them as simple as possible. In the IA's case, it makes more sense to play the rules as written, rather than create new rules to clarify the grey area. (which is a weak case in and of itself).
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 11:18

Quote :
And as for the IA thing, about the blackpowder reference. There are ways to lose items in mordheim. so its possible for the IA to lose his gear. At which point you could replace the missile weapons. When it comes to house rules, my group tries to avoid them as much as possible, or keep them as simple as possible. In the IA's case, it makes more sense to play the rules as written, rather than create new rules to clarify the grey area. (which is a weak case in and of itself).
There is no way that hired sword may loose anything but his live - I'm afraid you're doing somathing wrong. In case of assassin I'm house ruling nothing, just trying to make clear what isn't clear - which is a must when playing mordheim.
Would you care to show me how assassin can loose his SHOOTING weapons or any weapons (but please don't write about sword breaker it's the other story)?

About the wolves - they are far from usless. Movement 9 makes them fastest thing in undead warband. It depends on player how he uses them. Additional attack is very useful - because... well it's extra attack. They are quite expensive but gives a lot of tactical possibilities.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 12:12

catachanfrog wrote:

There is no way that hired sword may loose anything but his live -
... unless hes in your warband and given new missile weapons. then he loses his old ones Razz

sword breaker is an official item that can destroy wpns in close combat. If the crossbow pistol can be parried, then it can be broken. (im not sure if it can, though) Not sure why you would request this item not be brought up?

still irrelevent though. All Im saying is that the rules as is are quite clear. Cant have more than 2 missile weapons. and the HS says you cant take gear away from him.

The only question mark is why they would include that line about the blackpowder weapons. But that doesnt mean that all of a sudden theres more rules missing that need to be created (by players, not game devs) so the model can be exploited even further.

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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 12:25

Quote :
still irrelevent though. All Im saying is that the rules as is are quite clear. Cant have more than 2 missile weapons. and the HS says you cant take gear away from him.
Important - read rules properly. His items cannot be used by members of warband. That's all. You're overinterpretating rule.

Quote :
sword breaker is an official item that can destroy wpns in close combat. If the crossbow pistol can be parried, then it can be broken. (im not sure if it can, though) Not sure why you would request this item not be brought up?

Sword breaker is UNOFFICIAL item to be clear and it's the only way to loose weapon. It would be weird if they wrote the rule that describes possibility of loosing weapon due to swordbreaker and didn't mention sword breaker. Show me other options than sword breaker.

Quote :
The only question mark is why they would include that line about the blackpowder weapons.
Because he can buy shooting weapons, that's why.

Oh. And besides - Imperial assassin was in town cryer 6 and sword breaker in town cryer 7.
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Pervavita
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Mon 17 Sep 2012 - 14:01

Zekk and catachanfrog,
You guys have taken this topic quite off course. I suggest that you move this talk Here so that this topic can stay on course.
It should also make it easier for people to look it up in the futures.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead Warband Questions!   Today at 11:33

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