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 Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips

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Grumbaki
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PostSubject: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 0:22

So, we're playing a campaign where the Sisters of Sigmar player wanted to use the old Steel Whip rules. The guy who started the campaign said alright.

Here is the map right now:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=151045&d=1347232180

((It's a special scenario. Find the vampire, kill it, and carry the body out of the building. Witch Hunters (red circles with blue letters), Sisters of Sigmar (red circles with black letters) and Possessed (yellow) are fighting it out inside the building))

If you look at the bottom, my Ogre (red circle with the O) is facing the Sisters of Sigmar Matriarch. There are two Sister Superiors close by (SS1 and SS2). Both sister superiors are armed with two steel whips.

I know from the FAQ that they can smack the ogre with the whips without problem from afar, even with him in CC. (grrr). What I don't know is exactly how the whips work.

1. They are ranged attacks, right? If so, do they need LOS to be used? (ie: Can they fire over a friendly model into combat?)
2. When hit by a steel whip in the shooting phase, can a model use Step Aside? Dodge Blow?
3. They are ranged attacks, but are close combat weapons. Do they have any shooting modifiers? How about cover?
4. As ranged attacks, what happens when they attack a stunned model? Do they still need to roll to wound and injury?

As you can see, this really confuses me. I've never played against the old whips, and am starting to see why they were changed. Too many questions pop up.

So if you are an experienced veteran from back in the day and know the answers to these questions, please help out.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 2:57

Vanilla rules they are just CC attacks that strike first, so not ranged, not in the shooting phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 3:09

The old steel whip rules gave whips a 2 inch range. I'm not sure if they attacked in the shooting phase or the close combat phase though and I'm not sure if they used BS or WS. I believe that they would have been used in the close combat phase using WS even at a distance.

I recommend using the standard errata for steel whips which give them the Whipcrack special rule which lets them strike first or something (sorry SoS is one of the few warbands that hasn't been played by my gaming group).
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 3:42

mordheimer FAQ wrote:
9.6 Sisters of Sigmar
Q: Can the steel whip be used to attack an enemy model in close combat from a distance?
A: Yes. Also, there is no need to randomize the hit, only the enemy model is attacked. [Games Workshop Official Mordheim's FAQ]

Q: I don’t understand the steel whip. Is it hand-to-hand weapon or missile weapon?
A: Steel whip is hand-to-hand combat weapon with special rule. This special rule says that you can use steel whip to make ranged attack (but you still do this attack in hand-to-hand phase) to hit someone who is up to 4” away. There is special note that if model with steel whip is in base contact with enemy, he must attack this enemy he is in base contact with. Explanation of this is: if your model with steel whip is not in Hand To Hand combat in base contact with enemy and there is enemy model within 4” (don’t measure! guess if in range, declare you are attacking and the measure) then your model can make this ranged attack. [recommended]

Q: Can I shoot missile weapon in shooting phase and in the same turn also use ranged attack of steel whip?
A: No, your model cannot use both missile and close combat weapon in same turn and there is no exception for steel whip. [recommended]

Q: If a model has Righteous Fury, does he have a hatred of Orcs & Chaos Dwarves? The skill was made before Orcs were added and since Chaos Dwarves haven't officially been added to Mordheim yet, I just figured I'd run it by you guys.
A: The fluff says that the fury is toward "evil that pollutes the soil of the holy Empire", so I agree yes as well. You can add Beastmen, Dark Elves and any other "evil" race as well. Non-chaos humans who just like to kill, loot etc should not be included IMHO. Warhammer has a large dose of grey, but there is a dark/light division. [Rinku, recommended]

Q: If a model has steel whips and is frenzied does she have to charge into base to base contact, or can she stop within 4" and whip to her crazy heart's content?
A: Yes, she has to charge, as per the frenzy rules. Give the crazy bitch some hammers Wink [Rinku]

Q: Can a Sister of Sigmar Sling in the shooting phase, then Whip in the assault phase?
A: No - models fighting in close combat (even 4" away!) cannot shoot. See p. 29. For more on whips see http://ww.egroups.com/files/Mordheim/Miscellaneous/Whipping+up+some+Questions.txt [Tuomas]

OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 85, Steel Whip weapon stat line; Replace:

"Range: 4" ” with “Range: Close combat”
OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 85, Steel Whip weapon stat line; Replace:
"Special Rules: Reach" with "Special Rules: Whipcrack”
OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 85, Steel Whip special rules; Replace the reach special rule with:
“Whipcrack: when the wielder charges they gain +1A for that turn. This bonus attack is added after any other modifications. When the wielder is charged they gain +1A that they may only use against the charger. This additional attack will ‘strike first’. If the wielder is simultaneously charged by two or more opponents they will still only receive a total of +1A. If the wielder is using two whips at the same time then they get +1A for the additional hand weapon, but only the first whip gets the whipcrack +1A.”
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 5:10

Man, talk about a blast from the past Smile. Been a while since I have played with these, but here is my $0.02.

Grumbaki wrote:
1. They are ranged attacks, right? If so, do they need LOS to be used? (ie: Can they fire over a friendly model into combat?)
Despite having a range greater than 0, they are not ranged weapons - they are close combat weapons. They don't do anything in the shooting phase - only the CC phase.

Grumbaki wrote:
2. When hit by a steel whip in the shooting phase, can a model use Step Aside? Dodge Blow?
Aside from their range, they are normal melee attacks so all melee skills work e.g. resilience, step aside etc.

Grumbaki wrote:
3. They are ranged attacks, but are close combat weapons. Do they have any shooting modifiers? How about cover?
Melee attacks, so no shooting modifiers. Only any appropriate melee ones (WS vs WS, etc).

Grumbaki wrote:
4. As ranged attacks, what happens when they attack a stunned model? Do they still need to roll to wound and injury?
As melee attacks they auto-hit KD models and auto-OOA stunned ones.

Grumbaki wrote:
As you can see, this really confuses me. I've never played against the old whips, and am starting to see why they were changed. Too many questions pop up.
Yeah, the new rules are much cleaner Smile.

N.B. OK, this is something I have seen other groups get wrong so hopefully your group can avoid it. Under the old rules with the ranged whips, many thought that because their range was 4" they could just melee anyone in that range they felt like. This is not the case! The *only* requirement the range of the whip obviates is the need to be in base-base contact. They still have to actually be in close-combat to do melee attacks; they can't just be standing around. To get into melee they still have to declare a charge and successfully complete the charge (fear tests, caltrops, etc.). And, as pointed out above, they can't charge and stop 4" out and whip away. At the start of the close-combat phase anyone wanting to whip must be in close-combat with *someone* or they are not in close-combat and cannot make attacks. It is important not to overlook this as it makes the whips a lot more potent than they ought to be.

Oh yeah, in my group we ruled that because the whips are described to have steel blades on them they use the edged weapon crit table and the other whips use the melee table. We decided on the melee table because it had the least amount of silly results.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 10:56

I'm sorry, but that made me even more confused. So do they 'charge' and then stop 4'' away?

Also, I'm currently arguing that steel whips need LOS. As ranged attacks, they need to be able to see the person whom they are attacking.

So if there are 3 combats between a sister with a whip and a stunned warrior, she can't attack the stunned warrior. She can't see him. Just as if there is a wall in the way, the wall blocks LOS so she can't see them.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 14:26

No, they must get into base-to-base to successfully charge, just like everyone else. The 4" thing only comes into play if they start the cc phase in combat and then someone else ooa's their opponent before they get to strike. If that happens instead of being able to melee noone, they can melee anyone with 4".

Sadly, RAW there is no requirement for LOS, but that was a house-rule that many adopted (including us).

Also, the whip has a rule that states that if there is someone in base-to-base with her she can only attack those in base-to-base, but we had a house-rule that if all her opponents were KD/stunned then she could attack at range if she wished.

We also had a house-rule stating that the whips could only be dual-wielded by the auger who had to use her future-sight to avoid buggering it up - kind of like only force-users can use those stupid light-saber flails with any kind of safety.

While the range was an interesting idea the initial implementation of it was kind of clunky and prone to errors in interpretation and odd effects (e.g. sisters being able to whip someone standing on the second floor). The new one is much cleaner.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 14:33

Thanks for all the advice. Sadly, I don't think that I'll be able to convince this player that he needs to be in CC to use the whips. I think that for our next campaign I'm going to insist that all whips follow the new rules. Especially as the same player wants to run pirates (cat o' nine tails).
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 19:07

Lord 0 wrote:
N.B. OK, this is something I have seen other groups get wrong so hopefully your group can avoid it. Under the old rules with the ranged whips, many thought that because their range was 4" they could just melee anyone in that range they felt like. This is not the case! The *only* requirement the range of the whip obviates is the need to be in base-base contact. They still have to actually be in close-combat to do melee attacks; they can't just be standing around. To get into melee they still have to declare a charge and successfully complete the charge (fear tests, caltrops, etc.). And, as pointed out above, they can't charge and stop 4" out and whip away. At the start of the close-combat phase anyone wanting to whip must be in close-combat with *someone* or they are not in close-combat and cannot make attacks. It is important not to overlook this as it makes the whips a lot more potent than they ought to be.

I'm not sure where you get the impression that people were playing this erroneously. Your interpretation is interesting but is not supported by the rules or by the FAQ quoted above. The old rules were horrible, but it was perfectly legal to move to within 4" and whip away (just not if you were frenzied.)

The new rules are not without problems, but they are a lot cleaner and more balanced than the originals.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 22:31

You can only make a melee attack if you are engaged in close combat. The only way to be engaged in close combat is to successfully complete a charge. Nothing in the steel whip says anything about giving you an extra 4" or if you fail a charge by 4" you are still engaged in combat or anything like that. As far as I am aware no FAQ or errata has eliminated the need to be in close combat to make a close combat attack.

Well, not until I re-read the FAQ above, anyway. Specifically the question "I don’t understand the steel whip. Is it hand-to-hand weapon or missile weapon?". Ah well, just another GW case where the alleged explanation of the rule contradicts the RAW Smile.

In fact, the very next question makes me think that the questions were answered by different people because in the first question he says you don't have to be in close combat to attack with the whip and then in the next question he says that there is no exception for the whip being able to attack when not in close combat. Odd. Normally one cannot make a shooting attack if you are engaged in close combat and if you aren't in close combat you can. There is no rule saying that you cannot use a shooting weapon and a melee weapon in the same turn, only a rule saying that you can only shoot if you aren't in close combat and didn't run, so if you are assuming that you can melee without being engaged in close combat there is no reason you can't move, shoot, and then whip in the appropriate phases.

Ugh - what a mess; no wonder people were confused. I am glad noone else in my group noticed that until after the rules were changed. Just as well the Sisters player tended not to read Town Cryer or White Dwarf :p.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 23:36

The original whip rule was changed from ranged to CC because what a lot players could easily cheese the situation. I was in a Campaign at a store and one player was a master at this. He would declare a movement but not charge. But since an opponent model might be within 8 inches of his model, he would have to measure the distance to see if his model could run. If your model was within 8 inches he would more the normal 4 inches near your model. Since, there was no charge and no CC declared, but you were within 4 inches of “reach” with the steel whip, he could still strike with it. AND no return combat, (Because no charge was declared). That’s why the rule was changed, that you must declare Charging now to use the whip and be in Base to Base combat, also added the strike first ability, with removing the Reach ability.

My suggestion is to use the current Whip rule of Close combat and strike first. Your other player wants the ranged melee without return combat, and be able to premeasure an attack, by seeing if the enemy is too close to him to run.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Tue 11 Sep 2012 - 1:56

Aye, that's pretty much it. But the group consensus is that rules stay as is for the whole campaign, so that's how we play it.

For the 4'' reach, does he need LOS?

Can the 4'' be used to whip around a corner?
Over another model?
Through combat?
At a hidden model?

In each situation, the enemy can't be seen. But the rules only say 4''. So how does that work?
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PostSubject: Re: Question for an old Mordheim Veteran-Steel Whips   Tue 11 Sep 2012 - 4:07

RAW?
No,
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes.

For obvious reasons the close combat rules assume base-base so there are no rules covering the requirement for LOS and so forth as all that is taken into account in the charging rules. If you make a house-rule that you don't have to engage in close combat in order to attack (which they seem to have done for some of the FAQ questions) then things will get a bit messy.

In my circle we had a house-rule (for so long I had forgotten it was a house rule until I went back and looked it up) that ranged melee attacks follow the same targeting rules as shooting, so closest target only, but may ignore kd/stunned, los required, etc. Multiple attacks let you spread them among targets starting with the closest valid target and working outwards.
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