HomeFAQSearchRegisterUsergroupsBlogLog inGolden Tom 2014 Thread!

Share | 
 

 Javelins...

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Rhoaran
Champion
Champion


Posts : 56
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : Iowa, USA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Beastmen (EIF) Beastmen (EIF)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Javelins...   Fri 31 Aug 2012 - 16:37

Javelins as they are written in BTB for the Norse seem a bit to good and far to cheap.

Those rules are: 5 gc, Common, 8" range, Strength as user, Thrown Weapon

It surpasses throwning knives in range for a third the cost and no rarity.

What do you all think about making them 10 gc and adding this rule:

Crude: These simple weapons are poorly made, often nothing more than a length of sharpened oak. Suffer -1 to hit.

I'm up in the air about adding the increased armor save rule like fists and daggers also.

Thoughts?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Von Kurst
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 7018
Trading Reputation : 3
Join date : 2009-01-18

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Fri 31 Aug 2012 - 16:41

Too cheap. Yes. My skinks pay 10 gc.

Otherwise I don't understand the problem or the solutions.

~The javelin a missile weapon with an 8" range. Warbands that have access to javelins tend not to have too many choices for missile weapons and I have never seen a hero use Weapons Master to gain access to javelins. On the other hand, I see heroes use precious skill slots to gain access to throwing knives and knife fighter all the time, because throwing knives ROCK!

Perhaps your group has different experiences.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1454
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 32
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Fri 31 Aug 2012 - 23:40

Remember that throwing knives work with the 'Knife Fighter' skill which is makes a very good combination.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
Lord 0
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 890
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-02-13
Location : Friendship, New York

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 5:26

I must admit that like Von Kurst I can't work out what the problem is that you are trying to solve. Even at the 5 gold price I can't think of any hero that would take javelins over throwing knives/stars. An extra 2 inches of range just doesn't compare to the three shots you can get from throwing knives. Personally I think skinks get shafted on their expensive javelins, but perhaps your group has different experiences. I would, however, be very curious to know what those experiences are...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhoaran
Champion
Champion


Posts : 56
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : Iowa, USA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Beastmen (EIF) Beastmen (EIF)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 7:03

Aside from the simple cost/rule comparison of throwing knives to javelins, the experience that made me question the balance of those weapons was a recent series of games.

My beastmen band with two javelin-toting ungor faced off against a pirate gang festooned with pistols. His gunners were always hitting on 5's due to moving (we have waived the range penalties for pistols), risking the misfire chart, paying 12 gc a piece, and having to make rarity rolls. After several shooting phases where it became apparent that javelins are often the superior weapon considering their range and 'thrown' property. As soon as characters gain a strength advance their power becomes even more evident.

This isn't a large issue as it only affects a handful of troops types, but we strive to create a level playing field. So we are making them 10 gc with the 'Crude' rule.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1454
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 32
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 18:21

Sorry for my ignorance but what Beastmen warband allows Ungors to have javelins. scratch I have only heard it discussed as a house rule. I would suggest using the standard Beastman rules which do not have javelins for Ungors. Beastmen do not need a ranged attack and it makes them extra powerful as you are discovering.

Also, the misfire chart serverely nerfs blackpowder weapons. The rulebook suggests a cost decrease of 20% (which I think you are doing) but misfire is still very bad especially for a blackpowder focused warband like Pirates. I do personally like the misfire table but I do think that this may also be contributing to your problems.

Be wary of commenting on the balance of rules when you are mixing in house rules and optional rules. The balance of a weapon that normally is fine (e.g. javelins) may become broken (as seems to be the case in your games).
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
Rhoaran
Champion
Champion


Posts : 56
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : Iowa, USA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Beastmen (EIF) Beastmen (EIF)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 22:22

Yes we added house rules to Beastmen as since there is currently no reason aside from fluff to take Ungor when you can take Gors, so we make these changes:

- Add javelins to the Ungor weapon options.
- Add the following rule to the Ungor entry: ‘Beast Keepers’ – While the rest of the warband indulges in flesh and libation, it falls to the lowly Ungor to ensure the slavering fighting hounds are caged, enraged, and most importantly hungry. At least one Ungor must be present to field Warhounds of Chaos. If all the Ungor are killed, the hounds must be left at camp until an ungor is hired.

Beastmen didn't need a ranged weapon but it suits ungor.

We are using black powder rules but from BTB so pistols, dueiling pistols, and handguns get a reroll on the chart.

We house rule lots of things and seek balance after dozens of games. We play several games a week and have hundreds of games behind us, so we add flare and spice things up while moving ever towards a consistent rule set.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1454
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 32
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 23:05

Yeah we used the BTB rules for black powder weapons too. I actually played as Gunnery School of Nuln I a previous campaign which has an extra save against misfires.

You are right that there is no reason to take Ungors in the standard warbands. I guess my question to you is what have you nerfed in the Beastmen warband to counter the Ungor buff? Is it really the javelins which are overpowered or is it the javelin/Beastmen warband combination that is overpowered?

Alternatively, maybe you can just do what you are planning and allow Ungors to take a 'Crude Javelin' which have the rules you have stated while leaving standard javelins untouched. I'm interested in hearing how you testing goes with these rules.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
SerialMoM
Honour Guard
Honour Guard


Posts : 1181
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-18
Location : Weiterstadt, Germany

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Marienburgers
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 0:59

I actually like the rules for javelin of the Sartosa setting.

There it costs also five gold but has a long range modifier. Normal pistols are costy and inferior especially if you have an increased strength.

But on the other side all warbands with access to pistols have also longer range range weapons. For these warbands pistols are more a close combat support. With pistoleer this changes, especially if you upgarde to duelling pistols.

So the javelins are good at the beginning, with S upgrade also later, but pistol user and knife thrower have even more potential.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhoaran
Champion
Champion


Posts : 56
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : Iowa, USA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Beastmen (EIF) Beastmen (EIF)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 7:56

SerialMoM wrote:


So the javelins are good at the beginning, with S upgrade also later, but pistol user and knife thrower have even more potential.

I agree.

@Rational

I don't think javelins nerf beastmen at all, it simply add much needed flavor to ungor. A couple of ranged shots is hardly overwhelming.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Von Kurst
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 7018
Trading Reputation : 3
Join date : 2009-01-18

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 10:25

Quote :
I actually like the rules for javelin of the Sartosa setting. There it costs also five gold but has a long range modifier.
I knew it cost 5 (well ok, I had to check), but where are the rules for a range modifier? Is this another Addon? Addons are killing me.

@Beastmen--We added short bows to the Ungor list. The change worked fine. One player asked for javelins, but we were following Warhammer 8th edition. I would argue that just taking Ungors is a nerf for Beast warbands. Surprised

@'Balance'--Oh boy. As far as I can tell this thread is trying to find a balance between Throwing Knives, pistols and javelins, with javelins as the 'unblanced' weapon. It is unblanced because it is common, cheap, has a longer range and when compared to pistols is a thrown weapon that suffers no misfires.

It is an apple versus some oranges. The javelin is a common weapon. Historically and in fiction this is true. Rank and file troops carry javelins until they are outclassed by other weapons. The javelin is a weapon of heroes only in ancient times. It is a cheap weapon to produce. This is relative if you don't have a supply of straight strong wood, but in general the javelin is cheap to make even with a metal spear tip when compared to a sword or a wheelock or firelock pistol.

The throwing knife and the pistol are rare weapons. The Mordheim game and the Warhammer world in general covers the early development of gunpowder weapons. Thus by the framework of the reality the game is set in, these weapons are expensive, rare and unreliable.

The throwing knife is the weapon of choice for assassins and adventurers. In the hands of an expert it is lethal and quiet at short ranges. The knives must be perfectly balanced and, in fiction at least, are always made of the finest steel.

I remain mistified by exactly what is trying to be balanced. The costs? The effects of the weapon during the game? Its general use? Effectiveness? In this case Rhoaran and his group have chosen to play with a set of rules that make pistols chancy to use and one assumes the Pirate player knew this going in. The Beastman player can only choose javelins as a missile weapon (as a house rule) and only Ungors may use them. All of the Pirate's warriors may use missile weapons. All of them. Heroes, Bosuns and Crew have the choice of pistols, dueling pistols, belaying pins and crossbows. Swabbies add the choice of bows, and Gunners add the blunderbuss, the handgun and the swivel gun.

We play with a lot of Pirate warbands and depending on how they are built they can outshoot anybody but elves and dwarfs and on a good day they can do that too. I can only imagine that the Pirate warband chose a poor tactic and stuck with it, which is hardly the javelins fault.

The Beasts start with low leadership and any casualties are a huge problem for them and Ungor are their weakest link. Tactic: shoot the Ungor.

Javelins still suffer cover modifiers. Tactic: stay in cover and shoot the Ungor.

Javelins have an 8" range, thus they will be in human charge range if they fail to wound. Don't shoot them with your pistol. Charge! It has not been mentioned but the pistol has one attack in the first round of melee. We use the pistol as an excellent source of a high strength attack for henchmen against high T warbands like Beasts or against low T warriors like Ungors. The javelin is useless in melee.

Weapon effectiveness. As has been mentioned heroes will often seek certain weapons over others. The javelin, pistol and throwing knife are excellent examples of this. My skink heroes take javelins when they get S 4. Once they have skill advances the throwing knife is the weapon of choice. THREE missile attacks from one warrior! The throwing knife is so much better!

With a pistol my Witch Hunter heroes can take Pistolier, Eagle Eyes AND gain an attack in melee. My human heroes never use Weapons Expert to gain access to a javelin. Did the woeful pirate try that route? (It would be cool if you wanted a Captain Ahab type...loses train of thought...wanders off muttering.)






Last edited by Von Kurst on Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 11:18; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
SerialMoM
Honour Guard
Honour Guard


Posts : 1181
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-18
Location : Weiterstadt, Germany

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Marienburgers
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 10:51

@von Kurst

Sartosa package 03 equipment: page 3 javelin.
it is hidden under throwing weapons "They suffer penalty for long range as normal"

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Von Kurst
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 7018
Trading Reputation : 3
Join date : 2009-01-18

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 11:17

Ha! I'm always finding things that I never noticed. Thanks.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhoaran
Champion
Champion


Posts : 56
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : Iowa, USA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Beastmen (EIF) Beastmen (EIF)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 13:50

@ Von Kurst

Thanks for the in-depth response. Throwing knives and pistols do offer more advancement potential as the campaign progresses meaning them superior in the long run. It seems that the general consensus is that javelins are fine as is and the real question is their introduction to ungor.

As the beastmen player in the group I was simply trying to head off potential complaints about javelins (though none had come up). I love having them in my list since now there is a reason to take ungor which should make up a portion of any beastmen band. I think the same as you Von Kurst that taking ungor at all reduces the list's considerable power by adding softer bodies to take out to force rout tests.

The issue for me has been resolved by this discussion. We will increase cost to 10 gc and left it at that. Thanks to those that offered their two cents.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
folketsfiende
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 998
Trading Reputation : 2
Join date : 2009-05-08
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 7:51

Rhoaran wrote:
@Rational

I don't think javelins nerf beastmen at all, it simply add much needed flavor to ungor. A couple of ranged shots is hardly overwhelming.
What he meant was that allowing Ungors the use of a ranged weapon is a buff for an already very poweful warband, and asked what nerf you had applied to them for getting this buff.

in my group we have tried allowing a new type of Ungor henchmen, namely Ungor Raiders. They cost five gc more, and can get short bows. They have proved largely ineffective.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Von Kurst
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 7018
Trading Reputation : 3
Join date : 2009-01-18

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 20:06

We had the same experience with ungors and short bows (except we didn't charge extra). One Beastman player in the campaign didn't have any ungor models and didn't want to get any. He ran a hound, gor, Minotaur warband. The other player always had a bunch of ungors sniping at you. They both performed about the same.

About cost of javelins. Our discussion has made me check the Lustrian warbands and the Lustrian and Sartosan price charts. Javelins are 5 gc for every warband except Lizards (who pay 10 gc to start with javelins). The price chart for Lustria lists them at 5 gc. (I've still been paying 10...)

No wonder I'm losing so many games, I have no idea of the rules of my warband even. Embarassed
Back to top Go down
View user profile
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1454
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 32
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 21:43

@Rhoaran... I forgot to mention that I did like your idea of making the Ungors look after the warhounds of chaos. That forces at least one Ungor to be purchased by the warband.

@VK... I loved your long response. Shoot the Ungors. Shoot the Ungors!!! Laughing

@folketsfiende... Thanks for understanding what I was saying. Smile

After reading what VK has mentioned it has made me wonder that perhaps it is a case that Ungors are so bad compared to other options in the Beastman warband that giving them short bows (or javelins as per this thread) is not enough to upset the balance because the Ungors would be purchased at the expense of a more powerful unit. I also wonder whether as VK mentioned in regards to the low Leadership of Beastmen that forcing the purchase of one or more Ungors (as per Rhoaran's group) or making the option of Ungors more appealing may actually be a nerf itself since the Beastmen player would be fielding more units with a lower Toughness which are easier to kill and making it easier to rout a Beastmen warband. Ahhhh... balance is a weird and wonderful thing. scratch
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
playtable
Ancient
Ancient


Posts : 426
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-02-21
Location : Indianapolis, Indiana

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 22:17

@VK
Javelins also 10gc for Pit Fighters.
So Skinks are not alone.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc193/playtable/
BalrogTheBuff
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 655
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-11-15
Age : 32
Location : Santa Maria, CA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Tue 4 Sep 2012 - 13:30

My experience with Javelins in Southlands (what limited playtesting i've done) has been positive. They make excellent weapons but as mentioned by Von Kurst above they will be in charge range of all but dwarfs or models that need to go around cover. Because of this they tend to be high risk due to their short range, which helps offset their cost nicely.

From a balance perspective I've not found them to be off, they are specialized weapons however. I gave them to two of my Southron Tribe teams (Ubuntu and Zamula) and the Zamula even have a special gear choice to boost Javelins even further!

I agree with the above though, the main reason for them is a cheap ranged weapon for teams that don't get much ranged gear, but due to lack of skills associated with them they never really get better.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhoaran
Champion
Champion


Posts : 56
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : Iowa, USA

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Beastmen (EIF) Beastmen (EIF)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Tue 4 Sep 2012 - 23:23

RationalLemming wrote:
@Rhoaran... I forgot to mention that I did like your idea of making the Ungors look after the warhounds of chaos. That forces at least one Ungor to be purchased by the warband.

@VK... I loved your long response. Shoot the Ungors. Shoot the Ungors!!! Laughing

After reading what VK has mentioned it has made me wonder that perhaps it is a case that Ungors are so bad compared to other options in the Beastman warband that giving them short bows (or javelins as per this thread) is not enough to upset the balance because the Ungors would be purchased at the expense of a more powerful unit. I also wonder whether as VK mentioned in regards to the low Leadership of Beastmen that forcing the purchase of one or more Ungors (as per Rhoaran's group) or making the option of Ungors more appealing may actually be a nerf itself since the Beastmen player would be fielding more units with a lower Toughness which are easier to kill and making it easier to rout a Beastmen warband. Ahhhh... balance is a weird and wonderful thing. scratch

I'm glad you like the Beast Keeper rule. My beastmen are 8 games into a BTB campaign. They've performed admirably but lost 6 of those games. My pile of dead usually consists of dogs and ungor. They do really seem offset the racial toughness of gors. I've been having a blast throwing javelins around though. One turn I took two wood elves out of action off a balcony with three ungor Laughing The next game I stunned a merc captain who then broke his neck falling off a building. By the way the BTB perilous events chart is brutal. Three ice bears came into my warbands rear and dropped my chieftan, a bestigor, 2 warhounds, 2 gors, and an ungor before I called it quits.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Javelins...   Today at 7:27

Back to top Go down
 
Javelins...
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Javelins and close combat
» Blowpipes. Grr

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum :: General Discussion :: Rules and Gameplay-
Jump to: