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The Mad Hatter
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PostSubject: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 8:33

Hey Guys,

Long time lurker, first actual post.

I'm looking to potentially start another Mordheim campiagn, but like most people who have been around for a while, I'm looking to "fix" the weapons / armor. We all know how prevalent dual wielding sword and mace/hammer/club can be and my goal is to create more variety in how warbands are equipped and make it not such a one sided decision. So, I've read through about 10 posts here on dual wielding, weapons and armor changes, etc and have settled on the following changes. What I'd like to know, would YOU play in a campaign with these changes? Is there anything you think is way out of whack (too powerful or too weak)?

In trying to change the weapon variety, my premise was make armor more readily available (through cost, HW/Shield rule, buckler rule change) which in turn should drive a change in how people equip warbands. When I personally look at my changes, I don't see an obvious one sided decision as much as "just dual wield". I know you guys have seen these threads many times, but your feedback is appreciated.

I'm not planning on implementing any change to dual wielding right now just making weapons changes. Here is my proposed weapons/armor list (its a bit long, but wanted you to see everyting for completeness - to make it easier to read I bolded weapons that have a change from the main rules):

Fist
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User -1
Special Rules: +1 Enemy Armor Save
Cost: Free

Dagger
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: +1 Enemy Armor Save
Cost: 2 gc

Club
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: None
Cost: 3 gc


Hammer/Mace
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: Concussion
Cost: 5 gc


Staff
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: Two Handed, Parry, Concussion
Cost: 8 gc


Axe
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: Cutting Edge
Cost: 5 gc

Sword
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: Parry
Cost: 10 gc

Flail
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User +2
Special Rules: Heavy, Two Handed, Cannot Be Parried
Cost: 15 gc


Morning Star
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User +1
Special Rules: Heavy, Difficult To Use, Cannot Be Parried
Cost: 12 gc


Halberd
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User +1
Special Rules: Two Handed, Strike First, Cutting Edge
Cost: 15 gc


Spear
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User
Special Rules: Strike First, Unwieldy, Cavalry Bonus
Cost: 10 gc

Lance
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User +2
Special Rules: Cavalry Weapon/Bonus
Cost: 40 gc

Double Handed Sword/Hammer
Range: Close Combat
Strength: As User +2
Special Rules: Two Handed, Strike Last
Cost: 15 gc

Short Bow
Range: 18”
Strength: 3
Special Rules: None
Cost: 5 gc


Bow
Range: 24”
Strength: 3
Special Rules: None
Cost: 10 gc

Long Bow
Range: 30”
Strength: 3
Special Rules: None
Cost: 15 gc

Elf Bow
Range: 36”
Strength: 3
Special Rules: -1 Armor Save
Cost: 35

Crossbow
Range: 30”
Strength: 4
Special Rules: Move or Fire
Cost: 25 gc

Sling
Range: 18”
Strength: 3
Special Rules: Fire Twice at Half Range
Cost: 2 gc

Thorwing Stars/Knife
Range: 6”
Strength: As User
Special Rules: Thrown Weapon
Cost: 15 gc

Repeater Crossbow
Range: 24”
Strength: 3
Special Rules: Fire Twice
Cost: 40 gc

Crossbow Pistol
Range: 10”
Strength: 4
Special Rules: Shoot in Hand to Hand Combat
Cost: 35 gc

Pistol
Range: 6”
Strength: 4
Special Rules: Prepare Shot, Save Modifier, Hand to Hand
Cost: 15 gc / 30 gc

Dueling Pistol
Range: 10”
Strength: 4
Special Rules: Accuracy, Prepare Shot, Save Modifier, Hand to Hand
Cost: 30 gc / 60 gc

Blunderbuss
Range: Special
Strength: 3
Special Rules: Shot, Fire Once
Cost: 30 gc

Handgun
Range: 24”
Strength: 4
Special Rules: Prepare Shot, Move or Fire, Save Modifier
Cost: 35 gc

Hochland Long Rifle
Range: 48”
Strength: 4
Special Rules: Prepare Shot, Move or Fire, Save Modifier, Pick Target
Cost: 200 gc

Light Armor
Saving Throw: 6+
Cost: 10 gc


Heavy Armor
Saving Throw: 5+
Special Rules: Movement Penalty
Cost: 30 gc


Full Plate
Saving Throw: 4+
Cost: 150 gc


Shield
Saving Throw: +1
Special Rules: Hand Weapon and Shield add additional +1 Save modifier in hand to hand combat (Mace/Hammer/Axe/Sword count as hand weapon)
Cost: 5 gc


Buckler
Saving Throw: +1
Special Rules: Parry (if armed with sword and buckler allows a re-roll of parry)
Cost: 5 gc


Helmet
Saving Throw: None
Special Rules: Avoid Stun
Cost: 10 gc



Last edited by The Mad Hatter on Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 10:34; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 10:02

First thoughts: Yes i would definitely play in a campaign with these changes, but i do not think that it will achieve your goal of making dual wielding less dominant. The +1 save for handweapon and shield is nice, but statistically dual wielding is still significantly better. And mordheim has far too many things negating armour (and too many attacks directed at one model) for a 5+ save to be effective.
I think that armour is still too expensive - and giving heavy armour the movement penalty but full plate not feels odd Wink
My group uses similar rules but armour is cheaper and dual wielding gives a -1 to hit....and still every player but one uses it as more attacks give simply too many benefits to ignore.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 10:33

Here was my "rationale" not that it's right or wrong....

Full plate was much less cumbersome than say a coat of plates or a heavy chain hauberk (being based on actually having worn both in real life). "Typically" it was also much more customized to the wearer versus other forms of armor as well. I was actually thinking of just removing the movement penalty for heavy armor altogether though in all honesty?

I'll be the first to admit I've never actually played in a game where dual wield was -1 to hit, so I don't know how much it actually affects things in real game play (but I do like it in theory as two sling shots a turn suffer a -1 to hit).

Do you feel adding in the negative's for dual wield combined with the above will create a more balanced decision between dual wielding and everything else? I'm trying to "minimize" the changes as I'm not looking to have a completely different game, but just create a more balanced Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 13:33

I΄ve never liked the movement penalty for heavy armour - it just seems weird that you can carry for example a crossbow, a handgun, a sword, a halberd, a shield and light armour without penalty but if you carry heavy armour, a shield and a sword you suddenly move slower? And it hardly seems unbalancing... Wink
As to the -1 for dual wielding: if you do the math it gives a roughly equivalent chance to hit someone as using one weapon (equal WS and one attack) does. You get different advantages: With one weapon you can use a shield, with two weapons you can wound twice, get two chances to take someone out etc.
In the end it depends on your preferences.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 15:12

Welcome to the forums!

I like all the changes you made to weapons. I would cut the -1M penalty from hvy armor as well, if I were introducing full plate.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 17:03

In my playtesting, I've found only 2 ways to make dual wielding more balanced with shields/2-handers.
First, you can make massive armour buffs so the modifiers don't always catch up. For example, leather armour 6+, light 5+, heavy 4+, Ithilmar 3+, gromril 2+ and the shield giving 5+ in close combat only. this way does ubalance other things like lizardmen or dwarves or any warbands that muck with armour rules.

The easier way, imo, is just to make the shield save an unmodifiable 6+, so it still stack with armour, but armour modifiers can't reduce the shield portion of the save. If you can garuntee a save for every wound on a 6+, it is about as viable as 2 weapons, in some circumstances. I also think some shield skills need to be added that allow an attack with the shield at a penalty.

Redoing all the weapons can help with balances, but ends up mucking with other things as well. Halberds become too powerful for kislev handgunners imo, flails make witch hunter flagellants unnecessarily more powerful, and morning stars make pitfighter hired sword a bargain. If going with my 2nd way to adjust fighting, you could just confer these weapons bonuses against shields, keeping the things you are buffing balanced to each other.

All that said, I'd still play the campaign, unless there is that one dick of a player who just picks warbands to capitalise on rules changes.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sat 21 Jul 2012 - 22:15

The border town burning supplement already have a new armor with a 4+ save (lamellar armor, 120Gc, available as heavy armor.).

The same supplement also states that shields offer a 5+ save when on foot.

The weapons modifications you propose are interesting but I think they add too much ''complexity''.
The weapons are fine as they are exept the sling (too powerful for its cost) and the spear (too expensive for what it have to offer).

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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sun 22 Jul 2012 - 10:59

I'll have to check out BTB and see what else it may add, thanks!

I would humbly disagree with the statement that the weapons are just fine - it seems there are really only a couple choices when it comes to weapons as there is a step function in effectiveness making a few top tier weapons, then everything else. Just my opinion, but I've found it based on what I've seen people play. I think it also depends on what warband you're playing as well as certain warbands have an affinity for using certain weapons?

Dual weapons, sword and mace/hammer/club seems to be the most popular option for hand to hand, followed by the crossbow for ranged weapon of choice. I've also seen a lot of sword and brace of dueling pistols in the ranks of characters, but maybe you guys have had different experiences?

One thing I've been thinking about, especially in terms of ranged weapons is the amount of terrain. The more terrain you play with, the better bows and pistols probably become and the worse off handguns are due to the fact you're having to move around the board much more to line up shots. So I think a bit of weapon selection might rely on your specific meta game (lots or little terrain)?

All the input is great, so appreciate you're thoughts!
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Sun 22 Jul 2012 - 19:41

Agreed. Cost differences cause a tier system. After the third game there would be a small handful of commonly used items.

I was surprise to see the sling not changed. We added a +1 save bonus. Also testing removing their ability to critical
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Mon 23 Jul 2012 - 16:50

I like the +1 save bonus to slings, probably enough to make them OK for a band of skaven to field them en mass and not be quite as ugly.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Mon 23 Jul 2012 - 20:52

Didn't slings get nerfed to -1 to hit if shooting twice?
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Mon 23 Jul 2012 - 21:18

Yes. I'm not sure why they are still a target for weapon fiddling, but there you are.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Tue 24 Jul 2012 - 4:40

It is properly because they can do the same as a short bow (and more) but costs less.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Tue 24 Jul 2012 - 14:56

Rytter wrote:
It is properly because they can do the same as a short bow (and more) but costs less.

But they are only available to two of the core warbands. And as such are not a "common" weapon choice. Different warbands have different weapons and abilities. We don't want to nerf the bow just because goblins only have access to short bows for instance. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Tue 24 Jul 2012 - 19:56

Stronzo hit it on the head. otherwise it would be a much larger nerf , in my group at least.

none the less, when there are entire warband builds that center around ONE weapon, and spamming it, and these builds succeed with a high success rate, thats sign that a nerf is required.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Wed 25 Jul 2012 - 18:34

For the armour I would say just go for it and drop the M penalty for heavy armour. To keep the specialness of Gromril and Ithilmar then allow them a 5+ save vs serious injury for results 3x and below. That way you don't even have to reduce their cost. An alternative for ithilmar would be to allow wizards to wear it and still cast spells. If that is too powerful for your campaign then allow them to cast spells, but if they succeed an armour test the spell fails. Or maybe you could have that as well. *Shrug*.

I think both your spear and your staff are still to expensive. At the moment your staff is a hammer gains parry, but loses the ability to wield anything at all in the other hand and, to my mind, that is just not worth the gold. In my group I set it to 3 gold and it is still seen very rarely except for magic users that purchase it for background reasons. The spear is also too expensive with the new nerfed 'strikes first'. We made it Strikes First,+1I, and reduced it to 5 gold. It now sees the occasional use for heroes and is a common (but not excessively so) weapon choice for henchmen. That being said, a good chunk of its popularity comes from the fact that many of us have henchmen wielding spears left over from our WHFB armies and then painted up for Mordheim.

With the official -1 when shooting twice slings are fine as they are. Historically they *were* just better than short bows. They were easier to make, cheaper to make, could out range them, and damage through armour better than them. I have played many games with and against Skaven and slings can be worked around without too much trouble even for those warbands with no shooting at all, let alone access to *some* shooting. Don't forget too that a hit from a shortbow hunting arrow is as deadly as a hit from a crossbow.

The only real advantage slings have is that they only cost 2 gold, but from about game 3 onward that distinction has largely disappeared because by then everyone has all their henchmen fully equipped except for exotics (assuming they are playing A-game and not a flavour-based warband).

Perhaps you could make it so that a warrior that has access to short-bows can purchase a shortbow for 2 gold at the time of purchase only to reflect them making them and bringing them to the warband? Bows purchased later must be payed for at full price and because a bow is 5 gold the normal reselling rules mean it would sell for 2 - the original purchase price.
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Wed 25 Jul 2012 - 21:20

I am completely mystified by the short bow versus sling comparison. Who bothers with short bows? Do mercenaries? Really? I mean really? If mercs are fighting skaven they take bows, long bows and crossbows and kill the rats before they can get in range and keep killing them after they do.

Goblins? Are we changing rules for goblins? Really? My goblins love skaven warbands who shoot at them. Please don't let the rat-devils charge! That hurts. Shooting? Goblins and skinks can get in range and shoot back. As long as the goblins and skinks use cover, its not that hard to win the exchange.

Really, in like real life, which warband does nerfing slings more so that short bows are more equal benefit?
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PostSubject: Re: Curious of your opinion   Wed 25 Jul 2012 - 21:30

Zekk wrote:
when there are entire warband builds that center around ONE weapon, and spamming it, and these builds succeed with a high success rate, thats sign that a nerf is required.
If that is a reference to skaven sling-spam then I think that is more a reflection on the fact that slings are the *only* ranged weapon skaven can get for their henchmen.

In tests we did were everyone was allowed everything sling-spam was very quickly phased out in favour of longbows and crossbows. Granted, everyone *starts* with slings because they are cheap, but anyone with access to a better weapon gets one in short order. This tells me that it is not slings in and of themselves that are broken.

With lots of terrain and good tactics sling-spam isn't a problem.
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