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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 16:07

Quote :
So far we have house ruled the doubling (and also that poison can be used on a whole stash of arrows). As said - we are still testing. Actually, I like your interpretation too. I hadn't thought of that.

So your goal was to balance the warband, right? Smile

Also why would you need to house rule using poison?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 22:37

Spectre76 wrote:
Agreed. Their defenses are better than all others in our campaign, but given the storyline of that campaign, plus the fact that they are still limited to 12, means that they are a tough warband to beat, especially later on as they develop.

and Like i said, yes there tanky but I still think I could beat them, its just the Orc speed of 4 trying to get up there without being shot to hell and back haha! once I do get them into close combat I have a much more fair chance to survive.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 0:05

Yeah, Dark Elves do seem to be "Glass Cannons". Once you get stuck in with them, it's only a matter of time before they go down.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 3:09

Von Kurst wrote:
Quote :
So far we have house ruled the doubling (and also that poison can be used on a whole stash of arrows). As said - we are still testing. Actually, I like your interpretation too. I hadn't thought of that.

So your goal was to balance the warband, right? Smile

Also why would you need to house rule using poison?
As you use the poison on one weapon, some people interpret this as only one arrow can be blessed. Anyways and on another note: We allowed the DE's to hire the Dark Elf Apprentice Assassin and luckily I rolled 666 on exploration. The assassin has the following gear: "Dark Elf Blade, dagger, repeating
crossbow, dark venom, light armour and Elven cloak." I doesn't say that all his weapons are covered in dark venom (as it does for Johann). Does this mean he has one vial of poison? And since you can't give hired swords more gear - does this mean that he can only use this vial in one battle?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 8:02

Quote :
Does this mean he has one vial of poison? And since you can't give hired swords more gear - does this mean that he can only use this vial in one battle?

A very good question! This problem covers a myriad of HS in one way or another with no guidelines as to the intent of the authors. Some come with one use only items like dark venom, some have equipment that can be killed (the Freelancer's warhorse) and some have skills (usually acedemic) that they can not use themselves.

For the Assassin we house ruled that he had only one vial per game and you have to declare which weapon is poisoned.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 18:41

As a quick note on the entire topic from a guy playing dark elves in mordhiem.
Spectre(brian) limited all elves toughness to 3, which I feel made my choice easy on which warband to take since I own dark elf, high Elf, and wood elf models. (i also feel the toughness is fair on the dark elves but drove me away from the lighter sided elves they seemed too poor a choice)
This simple fact made me play defensive and tactically. I worked my guys out to be shooting aces, apparently I had an old book... which meant I had to change my warband direction mid campaign.. but whatever Razz
Next without worrying about speaking with Brian I already saw the Sea dragon cloak to be somewhat of a misbalance, and while I believe the toughness max of three balanced them for most armies I saw how this would provide them with more defense than anyone should possibly have vs shooting. I just generally chose never to use the cloaks. Figured it would make things a little more balanced.
That added to the toughness 3 made me even more defensive. I would set myself up to take sneaky shots from behind cover, to push towards fey quickness and defensive saves for combat (on some) and shooting(on the shooters)

Currently this is working out extremely well for me. I don't feel it's cause of the army but cause of my adaptation to the way it works. I have forgone using the poisons thus far, dealt with having toughness 3, ignored the cloak (pretended it didn't exist) I have chosen to make two models as Close combat characters and they... well suck at it. They can live but killing things simply doesn't happen.
The infiltrate special rule was basically taken away, kinda killing deployment bonuses I could get with sniping dark elves. Not sure I agree with losing this ability (or using the nerfed version presented to me) but it's not my campaign and I don't really care much in the end.

All and all my dark elves were nerfed into a very mediocre warband. The only reason they are good is cause of the fact i started out with a fair few wins and some good wyrdstone rolls. Coupled with my abilities to focus on their kills and equipment knowing I cannot have more guys (except ones I hire) made those I have damned hard to wound. Generally around a 4+ armour and generally a 4+ for step aside

I feel like those nerfs are more than enough to make the warband balanced. I find anything able to sneak it's way into combat makes them fall like flies and due to the toughness generally most attacks hitting wound, and they will be taken quickly out of action.

So if you want them to be nerfed hard toughness 3 does that trick hard, the infiltrate being taken away helps too.
Other than that I self inflicted other nerfs simply due to not wanting to hear people complain, gamers like to blame something for losing Razz thankfully those posting here usually can call it just a well played game Razz

I may have missed it, but yea it seems that a repeater cannot have quickshot Razz I am in the process of adding crossbows with the weapon master skill to allow my elves str 4 (or possibly poisoned str 5) bolts.
As for poisons, I would think the way it reads refers to a weapon. A bow has a quiver and is considered one weapon and thus gets all of them coated. Same for bolts. It's listed as a single weapon in the rule book as you don't have to buy ammunition seperate. That would be my reasoning behind why I would assume they all would get the poison

Oh on that note, my biggest problem would be those damned orcs if boyos ever rolled anything but chest injuries lol... much easier taking out toughness 3 orcs than t 5 Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 2:04

Yeah, my chest injuries have slowed us down Haha. I'm only down to 2 chest injuries over 2 guys since my one big 'un maxed out at T3 died last game. Have to write up the obituary still haha. I'm thinking of pushing squigs up front to take the arrows since they might move faster then my orcs but they might go slower sigh Haha. Not having a reliable moving cover/good speed its a challange to get in to the thick of things.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 10:16

In my defense, the Toughness 3 issue is vastly overcome by the Dark Elves ability to have "Fey Quickness" which makes all Dodge and Step aside saves into a 4+, which is something that NO other warband has. In all the things I've heard about Dark Elves being OP, I figured having a max Toughness of 3 would balance that without having to drastically re-write them.
In regards to Infiltrate being "taken away", this appears to be a misunderstanding. As a house rule that was agreed upon by every player, during setup, all models are on ground level and outside buildings. The Infiltrate rule states a model may be placed "anywhere on the board out of LOS of enemy models and at least 12 inches away from an enemy." I still maintain that they must be at ground level to start, but they may be inside a building. This makes the "Hidden Treasure" scenario almost a guaranteed win for any warband with this ability. As the first couple of turns usually has players moving into position with little in the way of shooting/combat, Infiitrate still gives a huge advantage, but starting out with shooters in an elevated position right from the get-go seemed excessive in that advantage.
As far as Dark Elves being a "mediocre" warband, I guess that is all in one's point of view. Yes, they are limited to 12 members, as are all other demi-human warbands. However, they have a faster Movement, better defenses (through Fey Quickness and Dodge/Step Aside) and start with much higher WS, BS, and Initiative. Combine this with a max Ld of 10, some awesome Special Skills/Weapons that few, if any, other warbands have and put them in the hands of a competent player, and you have an AMAZING warband IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 11:09

Quote :
In regards to Infiltrate being "taken away", this appears to be a misunderstanding. As a house rule that was agreed upon by every player, during setup, all models are on ground level and outside buildings. The Infiltrate rule states a model may be placed "anywhere on the board out of LOS of enemy models and at least 12 inches away from an enemy." I still maintain that they must be at ground level to start, but they may be inside a building. This makes the "Hidden Treasure" scenario almost a guaranteed win for any warband with this ability. As the first couple of turns usually has players moving into position with little in the way of shooting/combat, Infiitrate still gives a huge advantage, but starting out with shooters in an elevated position right from the get-go seemed excessive in that advantage.
I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that they can infiltrate, but must be on the ground level? Or they can't infiltrate?

How do you play Hidden Treasure? I don't understand how infiltrate would guarentee a win since winning is largely random. Using infiltrate can increase the chances of victory in seveal sceanrios (Wyrdstone Hunt for example), but it also creates the opportunity for hero hunting by the ofher warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 11:47

There is nothing to defend. i didn't say you made them suck (though i think the t 3 makes all the other elves suck)

Also you stated you can't start in a building at all... as per your rules for normal deployment as well.

Your reikslanders seem to shoot just as well... yet do much better in close combat. You have to pay more gold to arm your guys but thats cause you have more of them with a higher max toughness Razz

I never said I thought my warband sucks, I also think I would have the same luck per game with reikslanders. Hell My orcs are more bad ass than my dark elves any day Razz

Amazing warband it's not, not by any means. What's still amazing about them? My dark elf blade? It has yet to kill a single person. My cloaks? I don't have one, my step aside? Dodge? I have t3 with your guys usually hitting me on 2s or 3s wounding on 3s Razz I need something. My repeaters? I have mostly crossbows (and the special skill to allow this) and a few repeaters I am replacing(though I do keep them around I just don't think they are that great). High ld and movement true, but unless I am grabbing something out of the middle I don't do much in the way of moving Razz LD? I only think i have taken 1-2 ld tests since I started mordhiem... Infiltrate? it's not working atm.... My ini is nice i suppose but when all my attacks do nothing it doesn't mean much Razz Usually hitting on 3s wounding on 3s then armour saves come and at best 1 guy is down while two guys shred me Razz (as happened the moment my guys got into combat) So that leaves... my magic. My magic would be great if my damned doombolt ever bounced Razz
The thing that makes my warband win isn't any of these things. The penalty to number of guys is instead what makes my guys win. When boyo's orcs catch up I am going to go from an advantage to a disadvantage.


On the note of fey quickness I get a 4+ instead of a 5+ when combined with step aside or dodge... how is 16.7% better chance to save that amazing? I mean you have a 16.7% better chance to wound too. Does that not counter act the save? you wound them more often they save more often... Oh and still less guys, meaning you have more shots coming at me than I have at you, or more guys than I can possibly kill before they get into melee(where only my leader can survive). I don't think you realize the math involved here. Everything that makes people think the dark elves are broken isn't being employed. No cloaks, lower toughness makes up for the fey quickness *(which takes two skills to get to 4 + instead of 5+), the infiltrate isn't in play, and damn if I can figure out how to make an effective close combat t 3 warband Razz


Quote :
How do you play Hidden Treasure? I don't understand how infiltrate would guarentee a win since winning is largely random. Using infiltrate can increase the chances of victory in seveal sceanrios (Wyrdstone Hunt for example), but it also creates the opportunity for hero hunting by the ofher warband.

We play it normally. I'm not sure what he's getting at with that one o_O I had... two guys with infiltrate... the only one I feel like I am a am gonna win regardless is when I am defending and someone has to run to my side Razz Giving me tons and tons of arrow shots.


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 12:22

Infiltrate hasn't been taken away. They simply must be at ground level during deployment. After taking a look at the rules, I conceded that they could be in buildings as well at the start, but as I stated before, having shooters in an elevated position from the very start is excessive. I've never disallowed the cloaks: you are free to use them if you choose, and I won't say anything. As the guy running the campaign, I'm still trying to figure what works and what doesn't, and I'm definitely going to take these things into account in the future.
If I've offended, I apologize. It's just when I read from your post that you think your warband is mediocre, but you have won EVERY game you've played except one, and that was at the start, with a big underdog bonus (so losing is not a surprise, and you got compensated), I don't agree. The point here is to have some fun and have a narrative thread throughout that links all the battles.
We can talk about it in person if you like next time.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 12:27

I don't think you have run a bad campaign:P I disagree with one rule but I asked if I could change the skill you said yet and I did it Razz I just really dont think they are that amazing a warband, my original comments have nothing to do with you... i actually agree with most of the changes. Hence why i posted them here in a topic where someone is talking about how to make them balanced Razz


On that note... how in the world did I miss elf bows... i want....


I think player quality has a lot to do with it. I am undefeated with the orcs too... in fantasy I am undefeated with dark elves, damned close to it with high elves, warriors of chaos I have a 10/1 ratio and so on. I would like to think it's not just an army that makes me win


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 12:32

*tuts*

If a player from my campaign came on the forum for a moan then I'd nerf his warband as a punishment...

Oh wait, one guy did, and I did punish him! Razz

Quote :
Anyways and on another note: We allowed the DE's to hire the Dark Elf Apprentice Assassin and luckily I rolled 666 on exploration.

Thanks for running elf updates Shelena. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Sun 24 Jun 2012 - 18:10

Spectre76 wrote:
In regards to Infiltrate being "taken away", this appears to be a misunderstanding. As a house rule that was agreed upon by every player, during setup, all models are on ground level and outside buildings. The Infiltrate rule states a model may be placed "anywhere on the board out of LOS of enemy models and at least 12 inches away from an enemy." I still maintain that they must be at ground level to start, but they may be inside a building.

Well I don't remember saying we all agreed to everyone starting on ground level, that, was just one of the main rules in mordhiem I assumed, but for infiltrate I agree he should be able to place his model anywhere on the table including up high in buildings. But that's up between the rest of the group and you of course running the campaign.

Quote :
This makes the "Hidden Treasure" scenario almost a guaranteed win for any warband with this ability. As the first couple of turns usually has players moving into position with little in the way of shooting/combat, Infiitrate still gives a huge advantage, but starting out with shooters in an elevated position right from the get-go seemed excessive in that advantage.

I would say in this situation that starting in the building would count as being in your deployment zone so you have already searched the building and there's nothing in it, and even if he does start outside of the building and moves in on the first turn and finds it, most likely he is gonna be set up with in 12" of the enemy so he could get shots off on the enemy, so if he does find it first turn he now has to carry the chest back solo across the whole table defiantly isn't gonna give them the win on that one haha that's a long way to drag a chest at half movement.

As for them being balanced, I agree they are. T3 balanced them out good. there squishy (even having heavy armor house ruled you can use any armor, so I need to get some on my orcs haha! ) its just for a melee based group (M4) its hard to cover the distance to get into combat. Like Ive said here before, I need to work on my strategy getting into the thick of things with them. giving less kills in the first 3 turns. (and my failed routing ability even with LD 9 I still roll too high haha! )
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Mon 25 Jun 2012 - 13:30

Guys? Can you please make your posts a bit less domestic?

It's interesting to hear if you believe you have managed to balance the Dark Elves (how and why). And equally so if you believe you have nerfed them too much (what and why). And - with my own DE adventures in mind - I would love to hear how much of their misfortune you ascribe to lack of luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Mon 25 Jun 2012 - 13:45

werekin wrote:
I disagree with everything in 'elf-hater' Zekk's post. Shocked

...
Build more scenery and stop bitching about elves already. Just saying. Wink


I never once bitched about shooting, soooo what does scenery have to do with anything?

My post was all fact, not opinion.
it is a FACT that games workshop banned the shadow warriors. this is why they are no longer in the OFFICIAL category.
it is a FACT that precedent on rules interpretations would indicate that the sea dragon cloak doesnt stack. The only arguement to support that they Do stack, is based off the rules of completely different game. Analogy: I can check people in hockey, so I can check people in basket ball too. This sounds just as intelligent as the arguements for sea dragon cloaks stacking.


All elf warbands are over powered for the same reasons. It has nothing to do with shooting, because Dark Elves have shitty shooting, yet still remain overpowered. Its a combination of starting stat lines, equipment, skills and magic. One of the game developers released a list on how to create a balanced mordheim warband. Something like 13 points one should follow, and what to do to Off-set a major advantage. Dark Elves and Shadow Warriors violated the exact same rules, in the same fashion.



Following the DESIGNERS rules for balancing warbands, roughly the Elves need the following fxies

-1 starting hero
Increase in starting XP for heros
increase in cost of each unit


House rule we also added:
Removal of Sniper skill.

Infiltrate is a perfectly acceptable skill and requires no nerf what so ever. Lots of warbands have access to it, theres nothing special here. Theres a few skills in the game that allow similar effects, Hunch, Tactician, both are better than infiltrate actually, and 'cheaper'

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Mon 25 Jun 2012 - 15:59

Quote :
My post was all fact, not opinion.
it is a FACT that games workshop banned the shadow warriors.

You say that, yet these 'facts' weren't heeded when I visited the GW HQ gaming hall... Not sure if anyone noticed my earlier comment; The one where I played Mordheim in a tournament at Warhammer World in Lenton and there were Shadow Warriors (getting beat down by Norse, Skaven and Dwarfs!)

Quote :
And - with my own DE adventures in mind - I would love to hear how much of their misfortune you ascribe to lack of luck.

Anyone else signed up for your campaign yet?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 2:27

werekin wrote:
Anyone else signed up for your campaign yet?
In the test campaign we are four players: Me, Stronzo, one of our friends, and Stronzo's cousin. Most of our friends are LARP'ers, which is the main reason we are planning an autumn/winter campaign - in the summertime they are out wielding their latex swords Smile. In total seven people have signed up for our main campaign and several others have shown interest. So far we are expecting to see the following warbands:

Dark Elves
Undeads
Orcs and Goblins
Possessed
Beastmen
Skavens
Witch Hunters
Middenheimers
Reiklanders
Marienburgers
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 3:11

Zekk wrote:
it is a FACT that precedent on rules interpretations would indicate that the sea dragon cloak doesnt stack. The only arguement to support that they Do stack, is based off the rules of completely different game. Analogy: I can check people in hockey, so I can check people in basket ball too. This sounds just as intelligent as the arguements for sea dragon cloaks stacking.
Huh? What argument? That they stack in Warhammer? I'm not sure why it is so obvious that they don't stack.
Quote :
5+ armor save in close combat, 4+ armor save against missiles.
So, it doesn't stack because it doesn't say "+2/+3 to his armour" like the wolfcloaks?
Quote :
A model wearing a wolfcloak will gain +1 to his armour saves against all shooting attacks.
Regular armour doesn't say that:
Quote :
Gromril armour gives the wearer a 4+ basic save, and does not slow him down if he is also armed with a shield.
Quote :
A model with a shield has a basic save of 6 on a D6.
And I'm sure we can all agree that those stack. Is it because it doesn't say "basic save"?

Can you please explain this "fact"?

Also, the only other save that doesn't stack is that of the Toughened Leather, and with that it says so in the description:
Quote :
cannot be combined with the effects of any other armour except a helmet or buckler.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 4:43

I think the bit you are looking for is this:
LRB: Shooting - Armour wrote:
The table below summarises the most common
armour types and the D6 rolls required to make a
save. Note that carrying a shield increases the save by
+1.
For example, a warrior in light armour with a
shield will save on a roll of a 5 or 6. A warrior who has
a shield but no armour will save on a roll of a 6.
(emphasis added)

I quite understand how it was missed - it is not actually in the equipment section, but in the shooting section in a summary of common armour saves.

So, yes, counter-intuitive it may be that you cannot wear a cloak over a breastplate, but the RAW is pretty unambiguous.

In my circle we rationalized it that people don't do it for the same reason they don't wear light armour over heavy armour to get the same benefit as gromril - it is just too heavy. After all, the hide is so thick that it will give the same protection as a wolfcloak reinforced with ithilmar. That being said we do have a tendency to alter or reinterpret the background to fit the rules rather than change the rules to fit the background so YMMV.

Another group I have seen house-ruled it so that it became an item that granted +1 AS in melee and +2 vs shooting, but would count as a shield for the purposes of movement. It was commonly worn with light armour giving the familiar 5+/4+ save.

In any case, the only people you really have to care about is those you are playing with. House-rule it to whatever makes you and your group happy Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 5:17

Dark elf models appear to (quite comfortably) wear armour with a dragon cloak draped over the top... What happens next shouldn't be rocket science. Wink

The only relevant precendent I can think of for armoured cloaks is wolf cloak.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 7:06

Lord 0 wrote:
I think the bit you are looking for is this:
LRB: Shooting - Armour wrote:
The table below summarises the most common
armour types and the D6 rolls required to make a
save. Note that carrying a shield increases the save by
+1.
For example, a warrior in light armour with a
shield will save on a roll of a 5 or 6. A warrior who has
a shield but no armour will save on a roll of a 6.
(emphasis added)

I quite understand how it was missed - it is not actually in the equipment section, but in the shooting section in a summary of common armour saves.

So, yes, counter-intuitive it may be that you cannot wear a cloak over a breastplate, but the RAW is pretty unambiguous.
I know the paragraph, but there are no (armour giving) cloaks in the rulebook, so of course it only uses shields as example. The wolfcloak does stack according to its description:
Quote :
A model wearing a wolfcloak will gain +1 to his armour saves against all shooting attacks.
So no, I don't think your argument holds up. That said, it could be a fair house rule for the sea dragon cloaks. Not for the wolfcloaks, though. If you don't fail your strength check it's rather cheap, but most people would just buy the twice as expensive but far better light armour - with that at least you are sure to get one.
We have house ruled that all warriors have 1 armour slot and 1 cloak slot.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 8:35

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 9:10

It looks like the general opinion is it must count as armour because it would be too badass if it could stack with light armour. But if sea dragon cloaks are armour, so are wolfcloaks. And that would be a shame. IMO, at least.

Anyways. We are discussing rules for a game where rules were never completed - and for a warband made for another (incomplete) setting. There is only one way to solve these problems, and I realize it's not by quoting rules. House ruling is the way to go. And yes, I love to hear how you have done this - and try to picture how your rulings will or will not be a perfect fit for our (equally house ruled) rules.

I'm not looking for the "right" answers. There are none.

Edit:
We have ruled that cloaks can stack with armour. In addition to this all armours give an armour save against serious injuries - if successful the hero/henchman doesn't have to check for serious injuries. The reason for this was that strength and crits make armour too expensive for its effect. Also, toughened leather counts as a cloak, but can still not stack with armour/shield. As such it doesn't give a save against injuries. Neither does the sea dragon cloak. But yes, it's a fair ruling that the Sea Dragon Cloak (as well as Toughened Leather) can't stack with other armour.

So far, my cloaks have done nothing for me. My leader has been taken out of action three times by strength 3 hits and once by magic (with this build). Critical hits can be rather tiresome sometimes Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Elves   Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 10:58

Interpretations of Numbers:

Light Armor - 6+ save
heavy Armor - 5+ save
leathers - 6+ save and states nothing can be stacked on this

Shield - +1 save to your existing save
Barding - +1 save to your existing save (also in core rules)
Wolfcloak - (not sure the rules on this, but you guys seem to, same deal)

Dragon Cloak - 5+ Save / 4+ save

Raw rules, if dragon cloak can stack on armor, then you can wear heavy and light armor at the same time for a 4+ save. sounds silly.

anyways, ill continue later with this, gotta get to the next job

Continuation on the cloak thing...
The arguements for it TO stack, are purely based on fluff and other games. Honestly, it would be hard to find anyone who could argue why someone couldnt wear a cape over armor, but the core rules say otherwise. House rulings can be used, but heres the thing. When Sea Dragon Cloaks CAN stack, on Game 1, the greenest of the green, a warrior can have a 3+ save in close combat, and 2+ against shooting. Game 1, without any rare items besides the cloak (which you can start with). In a balanced warband, some sort of Negative effect would be needed to counter this. Like, a lowwer toughness, or Higher cost per unit, or limiting the amount of cloaks per warband. None of which are present.


Last edited by Zekk on Tue 26 Jun 2012 - 11:51; edited 1 time in total
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