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 Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)

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PostSubject: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Mon 7 May 2012 - 19:20

Still working out the kinks of my upcoming (oh god will it ever happen!?) Grand Campaign for the winter. Looking at the Halfling warband (the one on the Mordheimer Informaton Center- can not find any of the reputed other builds) I realize I'm just not feeling it!

The biggest issue here is the stats to point ratio. Equipment is easily fixed, i.e. adding slings, what have you. BUT!

My point:

Goblin Warrior -15 pts.
M:4 WS:2 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 LD: 5
versus
Halfling Scout -20 pts.
M:4 WS:2 BS:4 S:2 T:2 W:1 I:4 A:1 LD:8

I don't like but it seems we have little else to go by- this is all the more exasterbated by the only offical publised halfling in Modehim- the Scout which comes with the canonical GW blessing Strength and Toughness 2. Okay so while this bothers me to no extent I do understand that the points SEEM about right. 5 points for a +3 to LD, a +1 to BS, a +1 to Init, but a -1 to both Strength and Toughness. But let's look at another example, shall we?

Maruader Chieftian (from BTB) -95 pts.
M:4 WS 5 BS:3 S:4 T:4 I:5 A:1 LD:8
verus
Mercanary Captian -60pts
M:4 WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 LD:8

this makes things a little more interesting, if you start to see what I mean. A whopping 35 point difference is all dependent in this case upon a +1 to WS, and a +1 to both Strength and Toughness (not to mention a -1 to BS [is BS as valuable as WS?? hmm...]). Now I as all of us aspiring warband creators wish from time to time we could gain insight or even direct knowledge of our Evil Empire's equations to coming up with statlines or more simply put what each stat translates into points at each level of ascension. Basically what it costs to increase Str 3 to 4 or what it costs to increase Str 4 to 5. Ya with me now? Wink

If I had to guess though the physical stats (S,T, and especially W's) would cost more than the attacks stats (WS and BS) as is made evident by our guess work looking at comparison of stat lines in mordheim. I would even rank (A)ttack higher than BS and WS as we can plainly see with the Vampire. Double the points of a Merc Cap'n with the only changes being Wounds, and Attacks (please don't mention all the undead perks- it derails my rant Razz).

But I digress, and so allow me to share my viewpoint on the halfling. These are ruddy, stout folk- and while their small stature may justify a Strength of 2 it certianly does not do the same for their Toughness. I can not imagine a world where Goblins are tougher than Halflings- those fat little farmers smoking pipes all day. It speaks to a degree of stout teneciaty. Are Dwarfs so tough because of their physical stature, yes in part- but I imagine it more as 1 part physical, 2 parts mental.

So yeah.. lets go off that idea- dwarves. Would it not make sense to make the following changes then to our halfiling scout:
M:3 (yes 3, makes sense to me! like dwarf treasure hunters) WS:2 BS:4 S:2 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 LD:8 for 20GC.

the only changes made were a -1 to Movement and a +1 to toughness. and I like the sound of keeping it at 20GC. Please share your thoughts! (and opinions!)

Also share your thoughts and experience with making the Halfling Elder Toughness 4, and within that vein perhaps changing his WS:3 BS:5 to 4 and 4 respectively (and the points change respectively). I would like to hear everyone's feedback and I hope this wasn't just a rant in your eyes.

I want this warband to be a centerpiece faction when the Vampire Counts invade their little homeland, not being a weaker than goblins (despite being twice as round), faster than dwarves (despite being half as tall) bow spam army.

A preemptive thanks!

edit: fixed some copy pasta errors




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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Mon 7 May 2012 - 21:01

As someone who has suffered his vampires to be pincushioned by the little furry-foots I fail to feel your pain. All I remember is the not so gentle falling of sheets of arrows and the giggling. I did catch the little thieves later when they tried a dungeon raid, but even there they fled before any meaningful revenge could truly be taken. Sigh.

Is the Mordhiemer version the one with pigs and an ogre? The Mordheimer site seems to be falling under the influence of the Warhammer Ring, which sounds like a Dark Lord is involved.

I would recommend StyrofoamKing's Wee War campaign which is scattered about this section of the forum. He is taking an opposite approach by embracing the halfings as they are, but still you might glean something interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Mon 7 May 2012 - 22:49

Yes the Mordheimer version is the S2/T2, "war" "pigs" (yes double quotation![and parenthesis]{DANGEROUS LOOP STARTED}]) and an ogre. I just don't like it.

I will give it a look Kurst, thankums and bestums.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 0:48

I think your idea is interesting, but tougher halflings who are still good archers should have a lower warband member maximum, IMHO. I run a band of Halflings, and their volleys of arrows can be quite difficult to manage. If you keep a bodyguard near them you can handle cc threats as well.


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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 1:07

folketsfiende wrote:
If you keep a bodyguard near them you can handle cc threats as well.

I agree. If you play them right, a plucky group of halflings is a match for any other warband. A shooter's toughness shouldn't matter too much with the right positioning.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 2:56

Spectre76 wrote:

I agree. If you play them right, a plucky group of halflings is a match for any other warband. A shooter's toughness shouldn't matter too much with the right positioning.

That's the point - the are not supposed to fight in cc. And besides they ARE fat farmers living in relative comfort compared to goblins, who's everyday is battle for survival (poor goblins) Sad It's like comparing averland city watch to norse reavers Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 11:48

If your group agrees on it I think you should change the halflings. Rules are meant to be changed, beaten, broken and warped if it makes playing fun (or funnier).

But I think the tougher / better halfling should perhaps represent a more elite soldier. A halfling ranger or sell-sword cook perhaps. Something to make him stand out from the rank and file farmer-turned-adventurer.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 12:13

you do get "warrior" halflings in that band don't you who are S3, T3? I haven't actually played them although I did tot up a little roster (I was thinking of using them but my group aren't too keen on unofficial warbands) and I think I had all the heroes, 3 or 4 archer henchmen, an ogre and a warrior. My reasoning being that the archers and elder shoot volleys of BS4/5 arrows while the ogre, cook and warrior guard them (ogres usually draw quite a bit of attention)
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 16:33

Thanks for all the replies, but I see a trend in them- an interesting one- or at least a question being begged: does effective shooting outweigh all other manners of attack? And another that springs to mind now: how can I(we) manage that shooting on the stat line?

To the latter question the high BS of halflings to me needs to remain where it is, at least on the scouts- but look at the Dwarf Thunderers. Their WS4/BS3 is easily swapped with the halflings WS2/BS4 with some left over. But what makes in this case the halfling a better archer? First I would say is the Initiative, 2v4 respectively. With such a low Init, dwarves will have a hard time finding higher ground to make their shots more effective. The other of course which may not seem as pivotal is Movement, of 3. It takes longer for them to get into position, and are easily outflanked by enemies and avoided. Example: that human mercenary can run 8 inches to get behind cover from a dwarf killzone- that dwarf can only move 3 inches and still be able to shoot (with a minus 1 at that). But dwarves with their engineer also have anywhere from a 3" to 6" range increase along with longer range weapons available on top of that. Dwarves have their compensations- can the halfling say the same?

So would then making the scouts toughness 3 and movement 3 even things out a bit? Remember dwarves are still toughness 4! I'm starting to not think so anymore... or at least I'm be swayed by all of you.

What I would like to see changed, mostly the movement down to 3- the addition of slings- a T4 on the Elder- but I'm also starting to agree that the scouts should remain as they are (M4/T2/BS4). But this doesn't feel right having multiple movement values within one warband (with the exception of beasts that is, or the heavy support). Before I try and write up a revised list- any thoughts on this- or should I just curb my attempts here?

edit: how about dropping all halfling movement to 3, bumping base toughness to 3 in select henchmen- and the rationale to the canonized Hired Sword Halfling Scout, being just that, a scout- increased M to 4 but lower T to 2. This would also explain his much lower cost (15gc), even with his +1 to Warband size rule (normally a 30+3D6 gc; Availability: Rare 7 item)


Last edited by fanfav on Tue 8 May 2012 - 16:57; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 16:35

folketsfiende wrote:
I think your idea is interesting, but tougher halflings who are still good archers should jave a lower warband member maximum, IMHO. I run a band of Halflings, and their volleys of arrows can be quite difficult to manage. If you keep a bodyguard near them you can handle cc threats as well.

Remember an Orcs 'n' Goblins horde can have ALL orcs with a 20 maxim member warband. Its just harder to fill up (expensive). On top of that goblins are cheaper and almost just as effective as the halfling henchmen.

edit: and those Orc Boyz have a comparable statline to their dwarf equivalents for almost half the price. Animosity is a factor in this though I would imagine.


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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 16:37

Edyy wrote:
you do get "warrior" halflings in that band don't you who are S3, T3? I haven't actually played them although I did tot up a little roster (I was thinking of using them but my group aren't too keen on unofficial warbands) and I think I had all the heroes, 3 or 4 archer henchmen, an ogre and a warrior. My reasoning being that the archers and elder shoot volleys of BS4/5 arrows while the ogre, cook and warrior guard them (ogres usually draw quite a bit of attention)

This was exactly my reasoning- the warriors are WS/BS- 3 S/T - 3, why couldn't the scouts be WS/BS-2/4 S/T -2/3?

edit: probably due to GW's Halfling Scout hired sword acting as the standard for all future halflings- warband or otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 17:09

I concede!

According to this old unofficial (still better than experimental!) Dogs of War army list put out by GW, prolly through White Dwarf from the looks of it- halflings have always been, are, and begrudgingly should always be S/T -2.

http://www.tilea.org/download/[Tilea.net][ENG]Official_Note_165.pdf

I will still tweak the hell out of this Mordheimer Info Center list though. The points or something isn't quite right. And I will add slings to the warband yes, you all thought bows were bad- not uh!


Sorry for the blur of posts - I feel like I'm talking to myself... again.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 18:28

I don't think that it is really fair comparing dwarfs to halflings because Dwarfs fall into the super human warband category (like elves and arguably Orcs) which aren't based of the standard human warband model they have extra resilience or skill in exchange for higher costs and less heroes. whereas halflings are largely human just with a bent towards ranged rather than close combat so I think that the cheaper cost makes them pretty much balanced. One thing that might hold them back is that with the maximum S/T of 3 they could suffer later in the campaign as shooting becomes less effective as you start getting combat kings cropping up in other warbands (ogre might help this if you can get him to a hero).
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Tue 8 May 2012 - 20:22

You know you're right. I wouldn't call them superhuman necessarily- just, wel,l NOT human. Halflings being demi-humans, they're pretty much the same except in stature. I am working on my revision of the halfling warband keeping in mind all your suggestions. While studying the other warbands, most notably my reference to dwaves, I realize now just as you said,

"they have extra resilience or skill in exchange for higher costs and less heroes",

The Dwarf warband has a hemp of special rules applied across the board. Ignoring Concussion and only out of action on a 6. Yes I understand completely now- it is not fair to merely compare stat lines and derive points. But inadvertently its given me the edge to make a great warband revision.

But you do understand my point on Orcs 'n' Goblins having better stats across the board with minimal special rules for the better/worse in regards to comparing warband max size?


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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Wed 9 May 2012 - 0:37

You get for the same gold normaly twice the models than a dwarven warband...

But you compare the halfings with two of the top-warbands...
Perhaps compare them with "normal" warbands like Mercenaries.

Most enemies are only T3 (Goblins, Humans, Skaven, undead, elves etc.). A good shooting makes them very strong. Most warbands are outnumbered by your halflings, you have an Ogres to protect them. A Oger with a good advance is a though foe...

If you want to tweak them give them some cool stealth skills, like "You have to halve your spotting range to spot a ranger", "Halfings may run and hide" or even better "Halflings are used to run away unseen and can run even if the enemy is in 8". They normaly just defend their homeland, if there is no danger they don't drill or exercise, they just enjoy their life...

Do you have thought about reducing max stats for melee stats? If you roll a max stats you can choose your next advance. That can be a real good advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Halflings Tough (I mean srsly now)   Wed 9 May 2012 - 0:56

No, no I agree. I was only comparing them to the top warbands because they're the ones with the big point costs. But to a human Reikland warband- you get BS4, S/T3 marksmen for 25gc. Halflings are still under shot. This does include Special Rules though and so is not a good example. I was just driving at my first reactions to the stat line- I hadn't considered the big picture. But I get the point they're halflings as you've all put it best in your own ways, I'm throwing in the towel on my Toughness rant. I am now focusing not on what shouldn't be changed, but would perhaps not should, but COULD be- in this thread here:

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t6473-new-halfling-warband-rules#92044

This thread should be locked though, as anything suggested here should be posted in the above thread.



P.S. I like the max stats, choose next advance. Even kind of rhymes. I will PM you for more on this though as I don't think I quite understand. Or feel free to PM me.
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