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Plutz
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PostSubject: Help With Magic   Tue 17 Apr 2012 - 17:31

So I started running a campaign for the first time yesterday and need some help with magic. I've never used a character that has magic but one of my players has a necromancer. I know he rolls a random spell for the game but does he roll a new one for the next game in the campaign? Does he need a certain level of experience before he can? Can he then choose from the two different spells or does the other spell stop being usable for him? I looked through the rules but didn't find anything about that.
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brokenv
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Tue 17 Apr 2012 - 18:15

Plutz wrote:
So I started running a campaign for the first time yesterday and need some help with magic. I've never used a character that has magic but one of my players has a necromancer. I know he rolls a random spell for the game but does he roll a new one for the next game in the campaign? Does he need a certain level of experience before he can? Can he then choose from the two different spells or does the other spell stop being usable for him?

Magic Users can only roll for a new spell in lieu of taking a Skill Advance
They can use however many spells they gain, but can only cast one spell a turn
If they roll the same spell, they can choose to lower the diffiulty by 1 or re-roll for a different spell
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 0:02

brokenv has the right of it. There are also skills that make spells easier and allow multiple casting in the 2002 Annual. In the base book there is the Tome of Magic that allows a magic user to gain a spell. It is no further use after that so you might as well sell it.

In my group we use a house-rule that lets one select the first magic spell a magic user gets and then further spells are rolled for. This lets a magic user pick a decent xp earning spell so they aren't gimped for the campaign.
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brokenv
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 1:26

Lord 0 wrote:
we use a house-rule that lets one select the first magic spell a magic user gets and then further spells are rolled for. This lets a magic user pick a decent xp earning spell so they aren't gimped for the campaign.

Totally this. Fixes so many issues with magic right there.

My Necromancers always seem to have the worst luck of getting the opposite random spell to the warband design
(Zombieless with reanimation, Lifestealer when I have a slow zombie hoard, etc)

For Mordheim Magic 201, check out Familiars, Warrior Wizard, Magical Aptitude, and Sorcery.
Or if you are prayer inclined, Holy Tomes and Mind Focus.

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 2:21

Low level necromancer are supposed to be gimps! Always randomise your spell results people.
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brokenv
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 2:39

werekin wrote:
Low level necromancer are supposed to be gimps! Always randomise your spell results people.

Let's say I'm a vampire with some useless peons a few ugly ghouls and a herd of zombies. When I'm scouting around and doing my Necromancer interviews, am I going to take a 6" spell caster with barely any equipment or the zombie re-animator? Beyond the fluffy idea of warbands choosing a mage/priest because their spell fits the warband design, there is the fun factor of a mage/priest with useless spell/prayers making the game not fun to play, while just 1 useful spell actually makes it fun again.

Sure, vanilla rules and white bread taste, random all spells. Casual fun games? choose the first one I say.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 5:22

Woot white bread! I like the random choice option. Picking spells means that every warlock, etc. follows 'best choices' and the game gets more predictable, more magic the gathering.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 6:24

Just the first spell. Everything else is random as normal. I can't tell you how unlucky our last campaign was with magic. The witch hunter priest got the 'immune to magic', but the necromancer got the fear spell and the beastman shaman got a spell he would never use (the injure yourself to do damage spell, and the guy was a chronic bad roller that never took chances). Finally, the Possessed player got eye of god, which took his own man out no less than the first 3 games. So, the witch hunter never used their prayer until like game 20, the necromancer would cast fear that was never, ever useful for the entire campaign (40+ games). The beastman shaman ended the whole campaign with a total of 2 spells, only getting the 2nd one in the last 3 games and only using the first one once, which ended in the shaman stunning himself and that's it (chronic bad roller, it's really amazing to watch). Ultimately, the Possessed player pulled out ahead, even with the first 3 games taking out a dude at the start, as his spell actually did something in the first three months. I know that this is not typical, but it's quite likely with just a couple warbands in a campaign that you get stuck with a mage who gets spells designed for warbands that aren't there or for a different style of warband than the one you are playing. We don't extend it to hired swords, or anything after warband creation, as the idea is that the warband you create is designed around this one mage who can do this one spell that fits your one warband design, and anything else is random luck. I know if I was a Witch Hunter who knew they were going to fight Undead/Chaos, I would want to hire the priest who can blow them up instead of the pansy who hides behind his faith shield. If I was a vampire with no zombies, I would eat my reanimating necromancer and find a new one. If I was a Magister failing to ever cast my difficiulty 10 spell for the first 15 games, the Shadowlord himself would smite me as a disgrace and replace me. I know you could just replace them after one game and keep their gear (unless they are a leader, and then you are hopeless until the random dice let you have fun again), but then it's not fun, it's playing a random numbers game before I even get to have fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 11:58

Mordheim advantages close combat monster or extreme range combat warbands. To strengthen the few mostly bad magic users is also what we do.

The first spell may be chosen.

Why?

Because basically you could create as many similar warbands until the spell is fine for you and as written above magic users with the wrong spells suck and take away fun in campaigns at the beginning.

After this they have to roll like defined in the vanilla rules.
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WarbossKurgan
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 12:45

SerialMoM wrote:
Because basically you could create as many similar warbands until the spell is fine for you
I see what you are saying but we always play it that you roll your spell in front of your opponent, just before playing your first game with a new warband. The random nature of the spells you get is one of those things that we enjoy about Mordheim - like Von Kurst's group we like the variety this gives to starter warbands that are already pretty limited.

In my experience, having a spell-caster whose magic is almost useless is more valuable for story-telling than one who always casts just the right spell! Laughing

Game balance is over-rated. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 14:50

I get both sides of this argument.
there may be a middle ground as I have to agree with the desire to chose the first spell as nothing worse then a useless spell for the warband.
maybe allow a re-roll on the warband creation. 2nd roll stands?
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 23:39

Everybody should justplay the game as they want. So if you are lucky in your group to roll the spells before the game, than it is fine.

I had a caster in the past who i threw in the cc because of the uselessness of his spell. He did fine, but the point is he is a caster and should throw spells.

I often see necromencers shooting with a bow instead of casting a re- animation or they have the spell of awakening which they don't cast within the gameat all.

But in the end everybody should play as they want to.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Thu 19 Apr 2012 - 2:37

Yes everyone should play as they want. We play the middle ground and roll two dice and choose for the first speedwell. The spell is rolled in front of opponents so cannot keep choosing. If the same number rolled twice then too bad.
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Plutz
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Thu 19 Apr 2012 - 8:58

Thanks for clarifying and great discussion. Everyone plays the way they like to but it is still fun to see the differences. Since we already had him roll for his first spell he is stuck with it and it didn't turn out to be too bad either. Thanks again for clarifying how he progresses.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 8:55

I generally let magic users pick their first spell as well.

My justification is that no other part of the warband creation is randomised so why should magic be?

Also considering that magic is basically a spell casters primary "weapon" as such it would be akin to randomising what weapons and armour each of your warriors starts the campaign with...although now this strikes me as a potentially awesome game type...COMPLETE RANDOMISATION! xD

After the initial choice everything becomes random, so just like with melee/ranged heroes you can roll undesirable or outright useless advances, but at least you can always fall back on what you started with.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With Magic   Wed 2 May 2012 - 1:07

We discuss at the moment a houserule that you can pay an extra fee to choose your FIRST spell or you roll normaly and stick with the result.
It is a huge advantage to get the spell you want, but this come with costs.
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