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 The Arabian Merchant Problem

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werekin
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Tue 8 May 2012 - 13:51

During the pre-Mordheim release era when I (like many other youngbloods I'm sure) stopped gaming altogether to concentrate on drinking wine, smoking drugs, playing guitar and making love to teenage girls the term 'ward save' was commonly attributed to any special save of a magical or supernatural nature.

These 'special' save throws were always unmodifiable meaning that you would always get the save roll after an effect negated a save or if an effect was described as ignoring armour. An infamous example was the Black Amulet which conveyed a 4+ ward save for 50 points (or approximately 250-300 gold crowns on a Rare 15+ roll from a black market dealer but more than likely priceless and unobtainable by legitimate purchasing means).

Ward save does not seem to have made the transition as a rules description from Warhammer to Mordheim guidelines. Shame really, as it's quick, punchy, characterful way to 'keyword' special save effects. No-one one ever got confused in the battles we played.

I'm not sure Step Aside is quite the same as a special magical save. It's a separate effect to an armour save. A ward save for all intent and purpose was still classified as an armour save. The only difference being that I believe you only got one armour save and one ward save. Step Aside would presumably permit a third (pre-armour) save which would be applied before the armour save.

Yes, Nick Kyme certainly contributed some top notch material to the Mordheim tapestry! Cianty wouldn't have re-introduced it in BTB otherwise. I would certainly recommend using it in games. I'm under the impression the majority of the community is interested in campaign style play. I haven't seen any tournaments advertised recently. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Fri 25 May 2012 - 6:24

werekin wrote:
Nick Kyme developed the rules for these items. They seem fine to me.

We have a flying doormat coming to effect in our current campaign. Carpet ought to be pretty cheeky for moving cargo objectives around! Let's hope the Cathayan house-guard riding across the canals ends up getting his magic rug soggy. Wink

The paw and the lamp are dicey. I like the way they behave irrationally. Irritating play effects always get a reaction from players. Getting rid of annoying followers when playing Talisman is similarly entertaining for the other participants. It certainly lends some spice to the story! Avoid using these types of effects if anyone in your campaign group is a bad sport. LoL

I was discussing the use or lack of use of these items with a colleague recently. He was of the opinion that people avoided these items and the Merchant in general because of the vagueness or brokenness of their rules. I felt that perhaps people just used them without seeing any problem.

You seem to focus on the possible negative side effects more than the crazy over-powered possibilities. Is the 'irritating play effect' the irritation of facing a warband with 12 heroes or having a henchman suddenly die?

For us the rapid acceleration in warband power (I gained a skill and 2 heroes this turn!) was more irritating than the occasional death of a goblin. (Oh! He had 2 experience too, bummer!)

How is the carpet working out?

How do you use the 'mount' rule? Does the carpet's rider have to have a skill?

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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 27 May 2012 - 10:00

There are two new warbands in our Marienburg campaign with a Hero each who acts a bit like a Merchant. On top of that we also have two more players messing around with a Merchant Hired Sword.

The Merchant is one of those characters who can become a liability in physical scenarios. Dependent on the scenario conditions and any campaign objectives the Merchant can potentially cause a player to want to voluntarily rout when things start to go sour.

Having the Merchants has opened up new options in our campaigns. In an urban setting trade quickly becomes a useful RPG feature when playing Mordheim. For this we adopted simple rules pioneered by Cianty in his Merchant Caravan warband list from Border Town Burning.

Both of the players with Merchants have used the Hired Swords to different ends. We have one assisting the Witch Hunters and the other is backing Battle Monks of Cathay.

Quote :
How is the carpet working out?

The Battle Monks have managed to procure a Magic Carpet. It is providing us with no end of entertainment!

Last week the carpet shot down a sewer pipe into a trap!! See the trap rules in underground scenario section from Land Of The Dead supplement for Khemri in Town Cryer magazine to see why this became highly amusing.

Quote :
How do you use the 'mount' rule?
Being mounted gives +1 to armour saves.

Quote :
Does the carpet's rider have to have a skill?

Hmmm... How about you go get these guys involved in our forum discussion...

Quote :
Pegasus knights aint got s**t on a Mordheim knight riding a horse riding a magic carpet!

A fleet of flying carpets would probably also be a fun endgame campaign strategy for ogres. (Not to mention visually stunning)
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 27 May 2012 - 11:27

Quote :
Hmmm... How about you go get these guys involved in our forum discussion...
I'm not sure what that link is or how to engage the posters in discussion. Seems kind of free form there.

Quote :
Being mounted gives +1 to armour saves.
I'll try again. Do you apply the Blazing Saddles rules to Carpets? If so how exactly, armor save excepted.

Quote :
Last week the carpet shot down a sewer pipe into a trap!! See the trap rules in underground scenario section from Land Of The Dead supplement for Khemri in Town Cryer magazine to see why this became highly amusing.

Obviously the Carpet triggered a trap. Which leads me to one of the dicussions we've had in the past in our group. The Carpet owning player argues that his carpet is flying and therefore CANNOT trigger traps.

Now the underground movement rules from TC 17 and say that one cannot use flying movement underground, but we have always allowed warlocks and the like to use Flight of Zimmerman or Wings of Darkness, but the warlock always took a test to see if he had set off any traps he encountered. So how does your group play those rules?
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 27 May 2012 - 15:54

It certainly seems like your skirting the questions, werekin. Razz The merchant hired sword is fine in and of itself as you are saying but some of its items are troublesome which is the point of this thread. The link you provided in regards to magic carpet is useless. I have a lot of respect for you in the material you develop but boy you can be frustrating in answering questions sometimes! Sad Whoops. Hopefully that didn't come out as a flame as no offense is intended. pirat
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 27 May 2012 - 16:58

Quote :
Hopefully that didn't come out as a flame as no offense is intended.

Bah dratted Ostlanders, always sticking their noses in when they should be busy inbreeding. Wink

Quote :
It certainly seems like your skirting the questions, werekin.

Oh my cards are on the table. As are my personal details!

I don't care particularly where Von Kurst hails from but it's nice to know where allegiances lie on the battlefield. Viking

The link was included idly for humour. If you'd rather hear what a half-elf has to say than a troll...

I don't personally buy or trade for troublesome artefacts. When goods are too hot to handle you will only end up with the Witch Hunters on your tail!

If a player chooses to go down this road it's bound to result in a great twist for the campaign story.

Quote :
Do you apply the Blazing Saddles rules to Carpets?

These advanced rules are frankly too narrow to operate a campaign based on. There are 3 pages of guidelines in the Empire in Flames supplement widening the scope for animal handling which includes the use of mounts.

Magic Carpets don't count as animals. They count as mounts though AND (Whoa boy!) they sometimes behave like they have a life of their own! It's the nature of artefacts subject to enchantments/curses.

Quote :
Does the carpet's rider have to have a skill?

Nah, not unless a warrior is riding into combat do you need to have a Cavalry Skill. A Hero is all that's required to get that carpet moving!

It seems practical to take the Cavalry Skill 'Ride Magic Carpet' to make the most out of it. I suppose you could make do with a Spear or Lightning Reflexes if you have high Initiative. Once you have the Ride skill there are a bunch of other groovy Cavalry Skills worth experimenting with.

Quote :
The Carpet owning player argues that his carpet is flying and therefore CANNOT trigger traps.

The standard rules for underground scenarios indicate that flying is not permitted. Speed isn't a factor that has been detailed when triggering traps. The way to avoid a trap is to become a Trap Expert!

Quote :
Now the underground movement rules from TC 17 and say that one cannot use flying movement underground...

That is partly true. The precedent wording is; Models may never fly because there is insufficient height.

Here is the perfect link to demonstrate how a Magic Carpet may perform in a tunnel. thumbsup

Quote :
but we have always allowed warlocks and the like to use Flight of Zimmerman or Wings of Darkness, but the warlock always took a test to see if he had set off any traps he encountered. So how does your group play those rules?

Four warlocks failed to live longer than one game in our campaign. Something to do with Witch Hunters zeal! The skaven have hired one with a knack for survival but he has Fires of U'Zhul.

And that's your lot.

Regards,

Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 27 May 2012 - 19:01

Sigh.

I believe we are getting somewhere.

It appears that your group allows flying carpets in dungeon adventures. As far as I can tell you do not require a Ride Carpet skill, which we had not bothered with in the past either.

As has been determined you have your own caveats for how the rules for the Carpet actually work in your campaign. To you 'counts as mount' is distinct from counts as an 'animal'. An important distinction, but not one specifically mentioned in the actual rules for carpets. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for, so thank you.

Now, when someone on a carpet is wounded do you roll on the Whoa Boy! table and if so how do you resolve the result of 5-6?

Depending on the type of owner our carpet riders either use the carpet to overwhelm one foe with 3 mounted opponents or use the carpet as a shooting platform and a quick way to grab objectives.

Quote :
The standard rules for underground scenarios indicate that flying is not permitted. Speed isn't a factor that has been detailed when triggering traps.

Actually in the scenario The Gauntlet speed is a factor in triggering traps (we play The Gauntlet a lot). However, I believe our example was putting froth the proposition that because his warriors were flying they could not trigger traps because they were ABOVE any triggers. Otherwise he would have triggered a trap on a D6 roll of 2+.

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The way to avoid a trap is to become a Trap Expert!

So true, but so few bother in these later days.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 27 May 2012 - 23:01

werekin wrote:
Quote :
Hopefully that didn't come out as a flame as no offense is intended.

Bah dratted Ostlanders, always sticking their noses in when they should be busy inbreeding. Wink
Inbreeding AND drinking. Don't forget drinking. And big guns. We like big, shiny guns. Wink

werekin wrote:
The link was included idly for humour. If you'd rather hear what a half-elf has to say than a troll...
I appreciate your humour but sometimes your real answers get lost or neglected at the expense of humour. tongue

werekin wrote:
Quote :
Does the carpet's rider have to have a skill?

Nah, not unless a warrior is riding into combat do you need to have a Cavalry Skill. A Hero is all that's required to get that carpet moving!

It seems practical to take the Cavalry Skill 'Ride Magic Carpet' to make the most out of it. I suppose you could make do with a Spear or Lightning Reflexes if you have high Initiative. Once you have the Ride skill there are a bunch of other groovy Cavalry Skills worth experimenting with.
You have a point, werekin. I have not played with the magic carpet but I am leaning towards requiring a "Ride Magic Carpet" skill in order to avoid passing a Leadership test when hit by missile fire or at the start of each round of Close Combat. If Leadership is high or the magic carpet avoids Close Combat then the "Ride Magic Carpet" skill could easily not be taken. Missile fire would still a concern but I would only require the Leadership test to be taken if the Hero driving the magic carpet is hit by missile fire (or if the magic carpet is hit by missile fire depending on the rules that you use).

Von Kurst wrote:
Now, when someone on a carpet is wounded do you roll on the Whoa Boy! table and if so how do you resolve the result of 5-6?
VK, remember that the Whoa Boy! table only applies when someone loses their LAST wound.
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t6109-warning-different-losing-control-rules-for-mounts
I personally would apply the Whoa Boy! table for the magic carpet but only if the hero controlling the magic carpet loses his/her last wound.
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werekin
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Thu 31 May 2012 - 14:35

Quote :
It appears that your group allows flying carpets in dungeon adventures.

Existing guidelines state that no flying is allowed underground, rather than stating models which can fly cannot go underground. That being the case the increased move &/or any height-based benefits would seem to be disallowed underground for an animal or mutant that flies etc.

As the carpet has no function except transporting models by flight then it doesn't appear very useful in a dungeon.

There are few models in Mordheim which can fly that one might consider the guideline to be redundant and a waste of a paragraph's worth of space on an underground scenario specification. A rule for the sake of it is of no great value. This is a point of view that I have been considering as ultimately the game needs to be fun (which it might not be for the player who invested in a flying carpet only to be told he cannot use it).

Quote :
As far as I can tell you do not require a Ride Carpet skill, which we had not bothered with in the past either.

The rules state that models cannot charge into combat while riding the mount unless they have the relevant ride skill. To some players combat is the be and end all. Meaning that is the same result as not being allowed to ride at all!

Quote :
As has been determined you have your own caveats for how the rules for the Carpet actually work in your campaign.

Freestyle dungeon GM'ing. That's what I'd like to call it. Wink

Quote :
To you 'counts as mount' is distinct from counts as an 'animal'. An important distinction, but not one specifically mentioned in the actual rules for carpets.

All other mounts happen to be animals. The carpet is not an animal but it is a mount, therefore I would presume that a flying carpet is subject to all of the relevant criteria for a mount, including the need to have a ride skill to charge into combat (which relates to an animal being a mount, rather than it being an animal).

Quote :
Now, when someone on a carpet is wounded do you roll on the Whoa Boy! table and if so how do you resolve the result of 5-6?

The carpet rider hasn't been wounded yet so like Rational says it's no created discussion yet. He rolls a lot of 6's being as he's Irish!
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 21:46

Thanks for the continuing discussion.

Carpets in dungeons. In the distant past we had not thought to attempt our carpets underground, then a new player brought his to a dungeon and his opponents didn't argue, but complained of once it zipped to the treasure chamber ahead of them and they realized why it was there. In general the carpet would not be very useful by any of the rules we play by unless it was ridden by someone who could see in the dark or had a bright light source.

My attempt to clarify the rules for the Carpet has grown out of interest in using them more often by some players and disgust over the current rules on the part of others. Naturally no carpets have appeared at all this cycle so I'll have to wait for an opportunity to playtest.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 2:20

Sight is only reduced for the purpose of shooting.

If a model cannot see an archway they can still move towards it and go through it. That being the case the notion of zipping across so many squares/tiles on the carpet it utterly unreasonable. My suspicion is that this is the reason why flying is disallowed underground.

Do you wanna PM me Von Kurst. I can email you the scenario file from MiM containing the underground game we're having fun with. Smile

Regards,

Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 8:22

Quote :
Sight is only reduced for the purpose of shooting.
If a model cannot see an archway they can still move towards it and go through it.

In your world perhaps. In ours you may not move farther than you can see. We use modified Relics Darkness rules for night time or underground scenarios. With a 3D6 range of vision most models may move as normal in most scenarios. Every now and then a low roll will slow things down a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Thu 9 May 2013 - 21:57

Arise Minion!

Some of you might have noticed we are back in Araby/Khemri again. I've been testing out some of the items because we still rarely see these unless they are found in a treasure trove or such.

I am still bothered by the Lamp and the Paw. Mainly I don't understand the why of the items. Why are they written this way? Looking at the original rules for the lamp and the Paw, you have to roll for a 'dark' result every time you roll for a wish on the Lamp; so 3 good things=3 bad things. The Paw on the other hand seems to be worded so you rolled 3 good things then one bad thing. I could be wrong but as I recall, the Monkey's Paw in fiction is very deadly, while the magic Lamps from Aladdin, etc didn't seem that way. Mischevious perhaps but not cursed.

So I was thinking that instead of 3 good=3 bad perhaps the Lamp should function more like a spell or something. If you make the difficulty roll you roll on the good table. If you fail, off to the dark with you...

Or perhaps there is a one in 6 chance that you will fail to phrase the wish properly:

Quote :
Light
D6--Result
1---- There was a flaw in the wording of the wish! Roll immediately on the Dark table.
2 ----The Owner of the Lamp gains one skill from his skill list
3 ----Gain D6x10 gc
4 ----The Owner of the Lamp gains D6 experience points
5 ----Choose an item from the equipment list for Araby
6 ----Gain a Genie Hired Sword for no Hire or upkeep fee for the next game. If you wish to keep the Genie beyond the next game you must pay an upkeep fee for subsequent games. Unless this result is rolled again, in which case the Genie will wave the upkeep fee for one game per additional roll of this result.

D6 Dark
1 Roll once on the injury chart
2 Lose the lamp. If the warband also has a Genie Hired sword tied to the lamp, the Genie leaves as well.
3 Lose D6x10 gc (If the warband does not have the amount of gold in its stash, equipment mutst be sold to balance the account.)
4 Lose D6 random weapons from randomly chosen warriors. (A warrior may lose more than one weapon. Chose from melee and missile weapons.)
5 Nothing happens
6 Nothing happens

Comments welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sat 25 Jun 2016 - 17:38

As per Von Kurst's request, here are the Magic Carpet rules we have been using in our campaign (after a lot of grief with the original ones):

A magic carpet follows the same rules as a wagon (requiring a driver) but it moves 16" (even upwards!), has no limited turning angle and can safely land on top of buildings or other flat surfaces. Its movement does not make use of 'Apply the Lash'. At the end of the movement, the carpet lands (and may be charged).

It can carry a total of three human-sized warriors, or a single Large warrior. As per wagon rules, the driver must attend to driving at all times (cannot shoot, cast magic or attack) and other passengers will take a -1 penalty on ranged attacks if the Carpet moved that turn.
Enemies shooting against a Carpet gain a +1 bonus to Hit it as it counts as a Large target. When it is being shot at roll a D6: on a 1-2 the carpet is hit and (in addition to roll for wounding) you must roll on the Out of Control table; on a 3-6 a random passenger is hit. When being attacked by enemies in base contact, passengers on the wagon *do not* benefit from bonuses from defending an obstacle (an exception to the wagon rules).
When an Out of Control roll is made, the carpet only moves horizontally, along the ground, or downwards if already in an elevated position. Models and objects that collide with it during the Out of Control movement, as well as its passengers, take a single S4 hit. As per wagon rules, the Carpet moves through enemy models during Out of Control movement, and is placed at the nearest available space after coming to a stop.
The carpet has T4 W3, takes double wounds from fire attacks, and takes no damage from bludgeoning weapons.

The driver of the carpet can take the Driver skill to try to mitigate the effects of Out of Control rolls.



I droned on a bit regarding some of the stuff already on the wagon rules, just to add clarity in this case.
Im not sure I have an opinion on whether it should be banned from underground scenarios... but if it's allowed, it better damn well trigger traps, otherwise it's too much of an advantage. It ain't only pressure plates that are used for triggers: tripwires will catch that carpet every time.

These rules have now worked for us, but I do think the "possessed" Carpet with the Elven Steed rules can also be pretty cool. Like Disney Aladdin's carpet, with a mind of its own. Very Mordheim. Anything that unpredictably screws players in absurd comical ways, at the worst possible time, is OK in my book thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 11:43

Thank you for posting your rules Nuno. Always a pleasure to discover how other groups do things.

Quote :
The driver of the carpet can take the Driver skill to try to mitigate the effects of Out of Control rolls.
The driver skill does not impress me since there is no 'maintains control' result. My experience has been that its just an extra die roll in an already complicated process. In addition the Driver skill is an academic skill which just annoys me to no end. (My mother was the first college graduate in her family. She could drive a team of horses, but so could her father who didn't graduate from secondary school. He taught his daughter to drive a wagon, not the other way around.)

I am also very interested in your response to the Paw and Lamp. Our next campaign cycle was intended to be Araby/khemri, thus my renewed interest.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 14:52

Ah, yeah. Academic tends to be the dumping ground for skills that don't fit into any sort of combat/physical activity.

In our group we moved several skills to a "Common skills" list that anyone can take. That included Driver, Animal Trainer, etc etc. Things that aren't really that academic.

I'll have a go at the Paw/Lamp (we didn't really change anything yet from the original rules, cause it never came up). I think some of the previous suggestions work ok too (as long as they stay away from Hero/henchie slots!).
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 20:34

I tried for a few campaigns to get Animal Handler to catch on with Witch Hunters and the like, but the lads would have none of it.

We have tossed Riding and Drive and such into a Special Skills category that anyone can take. Though no one takes Drive no matter where it is, as it doesn't seem to be of much use.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 1:45

Right let me give this a shot.
Warning: this has NOT been playtested Razz

--------------------------------

Lamp of the Djinn 75+2D6gc/Rare 12
These are exceptionally rare items. It is said that magic and dark ritual can be used to bind strange daemonic entities to mundane, everyday items so that anyone can call upon their power. Occasionally, one of these items finds its way into the hands of an unscrupulous merchant.
Once found, a Hero will not discard or pass the lamp to any fellow warrior. A Hero can ask 3 wishes from the lamp. Once per Trading phase, the warrior can choose to make a wish. Roll a D6 on the Wish table to see what the Hero desires this time. Once all 3 wishes have been asked for, the lamp immediately frees itself from the warrior and is magically whisked away! Remove it from your roster.

D6 Wish Table
1 There was a flaw in wording the wish! Roll on the Wish Mishap Table.
2 Gain one skill from your skill list
3 Gain D3x20 gc
4 Gain D6 Experience.
5 Choose any one item from the equipment list
6 Gain a Genie Hired Sword for free for the next battle. (Genie Hired Sword has the Wanderer special rule, which means it will leave after the battle).

D6 Wish Mishap Table
1 Nothing happens.
2 Forget a random skill or Characteristic upgrade.
3 Lose D3x20 Gc (if the warband does not have enough, remove their most valuable items until the amount is covered).
4 Lose D6 weapons (at random from the whole warband).
5 Lose the lamp (remove it from the roster).
6 Roll on the Injury chart.

----------------------------------

Monkey’s Paw 75+1D6gc/Rare 11
Fashioned during the blasphemous religious rites of crazed cultists, this item is made from infusing flesh with the essence of chaos. As with everything to do with the fickle powers of the dark gods, the Monkey’s Paw is not always beneficial to the user. A curse attaches itself to its owner, making him crave the power it offers.
Once found, a Hero will not discard or pass the Paw to a fellow warrior. A Hero can ask 3 wishes from the Paw. Once per Trading Phase, the warrior can choose to make a wish. For each wish, roll once on the Light Table and once on the Dark Table. Every two games you have it and don't use it, you have to roll on the Dark Table.
After the third wish, it disappears (remove it from the roster).

D6 Light Table
1 Gain D3+2 Experience points.
2 Gain one advance.
3 Gain D3x20 gc
4 A random Henchman from a random enemy warband must roll on the Injury chart.
5 A random Hero from a random enemy warband must roll on the Injury chart.
6 Roll on ‘Rewards of the Shadowlord’ Chart.

D6 Dark Table
1 Misplaced: Lose one of the Hero's weapons (at random).
2 Cursed! The Hero must re-roll all successful rolls during the next battle.
3 Hole in the pocket! Lose D6x5 gc (if the warband does not have enough, remove their least valuable items until the amount is covered).
4 Minor accident: The Hero must miss the next battle.
5 Major accident: roll a D6, 1-4 a random Henchman from the warband must roll on the Injury chart; 5-6 a random Hero from the warband must roll on the Injury chart.
6 Lose the Paw.

-----------------

I significantly changed several of the effects... I wanted to have the right mix of incentive to use it versus the risks.

The Lamp can be safely hoarded for its wishes if desired. The Paw on the other hand will curse you if you don't use it, regardless.

The Lamp's nasty effects only trigger on misworded wishes, so it's a 1/6 chance. But it's results are mostly very very annoying.
The Paw's curses are a bit minor, just annoying, but they trigger every time.

It needs polish I'm sure, but I wanted to focus the items more into their flavour. The lamp is hoarded for it's wishes (to the exasperation of it's genie), and sometimes the genie can be compelled to fight. So the lamp can be kept for a long time. The Paw on the other hand, entices you to use it, and risk the minor curses that pop around you to the misery of your warband. And just like in the story these unfortunate accidents happen (off-camera) to other people. But it can be used for really nasty voodoo on your opponents, making them roll on the Injury table.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 4:17

Really interesting to read your feeback using this hired sword for the past few years. I'm using an Arab Merchant with dwarves in my current campaign, a revised version without fencer market and with different item tables, but still with classic maginc carpet, monkey pawn and djinn lamp (since we are playing short campaigns those aren't very cost efficent, but fencer market would be too good with half priced dueling pistols and ithilmar weapons).

Merchant has been working too well for me. He has great sinergy with dwarves and pays for himself every game buying better equipment with discount and selling outdated stuff at full price. He's an extra body with more movement and Initiative than the rest of the band for no cost, and he even became a bit useful in hand to hand to avoid being outnumbered since he earned bodyguard.

Too good IMO, a no brainer pick for a dwarf starting band, I have been using him with a halfling from the starting band and far from penalizing my grown, those two hired swords combined have been giving support without taking any extra gold. Needs a big revision to be official, maybe with a higher unkeep rate or taking away some of his starting skills.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 9:46

@Nuno--Man I really like your ideas. (So of course that means I want to change them.)
Lamp of the Djinn
D6 Wish Table
1 There was a flaw in wording the wish! Roll on the Wish Mishap Table.
2 Gain one skill from any skill list in the main rulebook (exception an evil warband may not gain a skill from the Sister's warband and vice versa.) Obviously I have to think about this...
3 Gain D3x20 gc
4 Gain D6 Experience.
5 Choose any one item from the equipment list (we would keep it the Araby list as I have different lists from different campaign settings.
6 Gain a Genie Hired Sword for free for the next battle.

Monkey’s Paw
D6 Light Table
1 Gain D3+2 Experience points.
2 Gain one advance. (What a great idea!)
3 Gain D3x20 gc
4 A random Henchman from a random enemy warband must roll on the Injury chart.
5 A random Hero from a random enemy warband must roll on the Injury chart.***
6 Roll on ‘Rewards of the Shadowlord’ Chart.

***For the last campaign that we allowed these items I did a "Sometimes They Come Back" table. The Paw would summon a hero from any warband that had died (we kept a pool of all our dead heroes). That hero would join the summoning warband as 1-2 A zombie hero as per the Undead warband rules. 3-4 A Possessed soul as per the Secrets of the Buejuntae or 5-6 A Reanimated Hero.

The Possessed soul was really powerful but might turn on his fellows at inopportune times...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@bitxo--
bitxo wrote:
Needs a big revision to be official, maybe with a higher upkeep rate or taking away some of his starting skills
Well GW didn't agree. They made him 'official' eleven years ago. He is obviously flawed though, so many groups do not allow him. Others have responded to how broken (read insanely good) by house ruling him to work for more warbands, to spread the wealth.
There are a variety of versions of the Merchant as well as versions of the Paw, Lamp and Carpet. A recent one can be found here--
http://cianty.ashtonsanders.com/mim/pdf/swords_of_the_empire.pdf

We have been playtesting a goblin version that must earn the merchant skills through advances. He is not worth much if you don't roll a skill (but that is the point since he doesn't cost much). See the Big Toof Hired Swords thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 20:04

Von Kurst wrote:

***For the last campaign that we allowed these items I did a "Sometimes They Come Back" table.  The Paw would summon a hero from any warband that had died (we kept a pool of all our dead heroes).  That hero would join the summoning warband as 1-2 A zombie hero as per the Undead warband rules.  3-4 A Possessed soul as per the Secrets of the Buejuntae  or 5-6 A Reanimated Hero.

The Possessed soul was really powerful but might turn on his fellows at inopportune times...

That's great flavour right there. Nails the Paw really well. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 16:58

For what it is worth, in my group we just disallowed both the Lamp and the Paw. Far too much shenanigans to be bothered with. We had exactly one campaign when we allowed them (we always play at least one game RAW before tinkering, just in case there is something counter-intuitive) and they instantly became the item that you went for at the earliest opportunity. One would purchase the lamp and immediately set a Youngblood (or equivalent) to lamp-polishing duty. 5's would almost invariably result in either more lamps or paws if you already had a good stockpile of lamps.

I think one of the biggest issues with the lamps and the paws is that whoever is using them ends up either a) a tiny god amongst men or b) dead. This means that whoever got luckiest first would win and there wasn't really anything else you could do against it except to get luckier. Less fun all around.

For the Magic Carpet we made it a piece of equipment and not a mount per se at all. It gives the owner M8 and can fly (so ignores difficult terrain penalties while moving, can fly over things, but not through them, etc.). It can carry 1 Large Target model or 2 normal models.

We used a model of the carpet about 2" by 3" and it had to land at the end of each movement. If it landed in water or swamp or something it was considered to be floating just above it. We have a house-rule for flying and climbing models that are trying to land/stop climbing somewhere awkward and that is you get your I value in chances to place the model where you want it to land/perch and if you don't get it settled by then, well, the model has fallen from where you were trying to put it. If the owner of the carpet fell then they were considered to have crashed and the passengers would fall also.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 16:13

Quote :
We have a house-rule for flying and climbing models that are trying to land/stop climbing somewhere awkward and that is you get your I value in chances to place the model where you want it to land/perch and if you don't get it settled by then, well, the model has fallen from where you were trying to put it. If the owner of the carpet fell then they were considered to have crashed and the passengers would fall also.

I love this.

Thanks for the feedback.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 18:25

Oh yeah, I forgot. For the Arabian Merchant that can supply Fists and Lamps we changed that result to rare trade from another scenario (if the campaign involves multiple areas) or a warband-only piece of equipment.
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