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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 20:31

Lately I've been revisiting an old problem. The Arabian Merchant is supposedly an 'official' Hired Sword, but 3 of his items have really hinky rules.

The Monkey's Paw--the worst
The Lamp of the Djinn--pretty broken
The Flying Carpet--really, how does it work?

In the last campaign only 2 of us used the Merchant and we agreed not to search for Foreign items to avoid their use altogether. But the next campaign is set in Araby and Khemri and those items are part of the setting. Potentially not a good part, but it would be nice to use them without the endless discussion of HOW?

Any insights?


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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 21:23

For us who don't know this Hired Sword, can you link too it?
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Thu 23 Feb 2012 - 8:43

To make the items less broken you can do this:
-About the lamp and the paw consider the loss or the additio of a hero, not like the loss or the addition of a material hero, but like the loss or the addition of a slot.
For example if you have yet 6 heros, and with the paw you have to add more, you CAN have more heros, but only with the TLGT rule, and if you have to lose a hero, then you can only have a max of 5 heros, so when a hero die you can't buy it again.
-About the carpet, it has to land on the ground at the end of any moviment fase.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Thu 23 Feb 2012 - 22:22

Pervavita wrote:
For us who don't know this Hired Sword, can you link too it?
Afew months ago I would have sent you to Table Top Geeks, but now you have to join the Yahoo Mordheim group or have a copy of TC #22, "Many Bargains, Much Cheapness" p.22-26

Gherma--I really like the idea of adding slots. In past years we have immediately promoted a random henchman, but adding the potential of a hero is much better than 'poof' he's a hero!

The carpet. We play that way as well. Mainly our problem is with the rules printed in TC #17.
~The carpet "counts as a mount". Does that mean you roll on the evil Whoa Boy Table if a model is wounded? Or only if the 'driver' (whoever that might be) is wounded?

~At least one of the models riding the carpet must by a character. Who or what is a character in Mordheim? Is it a hero? Should that hero be the owner of the carpet? If that hero goes OOA, what happens to the carpet?

~The carpet can not be wounded. Well, ok. But if its a mount, how could it be attacked in the first place?

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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Fri 24 Feb 2012 - 5:51

I'd just replace the Lamp and the Monkey's Paw with some other items or come up with your own tables.

Here are the current rules for the Lamp of the Djinn.
Quote :

Lamp of the Djinn
These are exceptionally rare items that date back to the time of the Sultan Jaffar. It was said that the Sultan used magic and dark ritual to bind strange daemonic entities to mundane, everyday items so that he could call upon their powers but hide their true identity. Occasionally, one of these items finds its way into the hands of those foolhardy or reckless enough to try to use the powers of the dread Djinn.
Each time a hero uses the lamp it grants him three wishes but each time you roll on the 'Light table' you must roll on the 'Dark table' and apply the results.
D6 Light
1 Gain D6 Experience points
2 Gain one skill from your skill list
3 Gain D6x10 gc
4 Gain a random item from the equipment list
5 Choose an item from the equipment list
6 Roll twice more on this chart

D6 Dark
1 Nothing happens
2 Nothing happens
3 Lose D6x10 gc
4 Lose D6 weapons
5 Lose the lamp
6 Roll once on the injury chart

Possible alternative list. The rationale is to tone it down a little bit and to make the light and the dark tables more balanced. I know that this is quite extreme but the alternative is to simply exclude the items entirely from your campaign.
D6 Light
1 Nothing happens
2 Warrior gains one skill from available skill list
3 Gain D6x10 gc
4 Gain a random item from the equipment list
5 Choose an item from the equipment list
6 Roll twice more on this chart (if a 6 is rolled again then nothing happens)

D6 Dark
1 Lose the lamp (do not roll again even if a 6 was previously rolled)
2 Warrior is inflicted with a mutation - roll once on the Random Mutation Chart (it is a daemonic entity after all - refer Power in the Stones or Corrupted Characters article)
3 Lose D6x10 gc
4 Warrior loses a random item
5 Warrior is cursed and now requires +1 water unit before the start of each game to avoid dehydration (something to tie it more closely to the Khemri setting)
6 Nothing happens



Here are the current rules for the Monkey's Paw.
Quote :

Monkey's Paw
Fashioned during the strange religious rites of the nomadic Tuareg people, this item is of similar potency to the Lamp of the Djinn. As with the fickle powers of the Djinn the, Monkey’s paw is not always beneficial to its owner.
Each time a Hero uses the paw it grants three wishes but you only have to roll once on the dark side. If you roll this item you must take it. Every two games you have it and don't use it you have to roll on the dark side. You may not get rid of the paw unless you use it three times or roll lose the paw. After the third use it disappears.
D6 Light
1 Gain D6 Experience points
2 Gain one skill from your Skill list
3 Gain D6x10 gc
4 Gain an extra Hero even if it is above your maximum allowed
5 Gain an extra Henchman even if it is above your maximum allowed
6 Roll twice more on this chart

D6 Dark
1 Lose D6 Experience points
2 Lose one random skill
3 Lose D6x10 gc
4 Lose a Hero
5 Lose a Henchman
6 Lose the paw

Possible alternative list. Same rationale as for the Lamp of the Djinn to remove the stupid options. (I copied your idea of Hero slots, Gherma, as it was better than the rules but I'm still not convinced about changing the number of Heroes at all.)
D6 Light
1 Nothing happens
2 Warrior gains one skill from available skill list
3 Gain D6x10 gc
4 Gain an extra Hero slot (up to a maximum of 8 slots)
5 Gain minor magical artifact. Roll D3, 1 = Venom Ring, 2 = Scorpian Ring, 3 = Firefly (from minor artifacts in BTB and rules are below)
6 Roll twice more on this chart (if a 6 is rolled again then nothing happens)

D6 Dark
1 Lose the paw (do not roll again even if a 6 was previously rolled)
2 Warrior must roll on injury chart (treat results of 36+ as Full Recovery)
3 Lose D6x10 gc
4 Lose a Hero slot (down to a minimum of 4 slots). If this means that there are now too many Heroes in the warband then the Hero with the least experience may be kept but will have an upkeep just like a hired sword of xx gc per battle.
5 Warband loses a random magical item (if warband has no magical items then nothing happens)
6 Nothing happens

How the Monkey's Paw is used is also ambiguous. First it should be noted that it appears that the paw has a minor curse and that is why it has to be used 3 times (no more and no less). Here is my interpretation (and maybe adjustment) to the rules for using the Monkey's Paw. A Hero can only use the Monkey's Paw (and the Lamp of the Djinn) a single time between each game but the Hero cannot use it if he/she went OOA. This means that at a minimum it is necessary to have it for at least 3 games. When the Monkey's Paw is used for the third time then it is necessary to also roll on the 'Dark table' before the paw disappears. Also, if the Hero goes OOA for two consecutive games (or chooses not to use the paw - the fool) then it is necessary to roll on the 'Dark table'. Perhaps you could also add that the Hero using the Monkey's Paw (or Lamp of the Djinn) will not go searching for rare items meaning that there is more incentive to sometimes not use the paw and therefore more risk that it will become necessary to roll on the 'Dark table'.

Quote :

Firefly
A small jewelled brooch that glows with a constant warm light. The model wearing this will always count as carrying a lantern and once per battle the firefly can be used to send a small searing bolt towards an enemy model within 12" causing a single Strength 4 fire hit.



And while I'm at it here are the rules for the Magic Carpet.
Quote :

Magic Carpet
These wondrous items from a forgotten age are even rarer than the lamps of the Djinn and are thought to have originated from the distant long dead Sorcerer’s Isles.
A magic carpet is indeed just that – a carpet that flies! It counts as a mount and allows movement of 16" with no restrictions for terrain. You can move onto the roofs of buildings and other high places with no penalty. The carpet may carry up to three men or one large creature and a man. One of the riders must be a character. Due to its magical nature it cannot be destroyed.
The term "character" definitely refers to a Hero and would be the Hero that owns the magic carpet. If the Hero dies then the magic carpet is lost.
I think that you should use the Whoa Boy! table but only for the driver. This begs the question whether you need a "Ride Carpet" skill. The Whoa Boy! table would only be used when the driver loses his/her LAST wound (remember the Whoa Boy! table is not used when each wound is lost but only when the last wound is lost) and would not occur when any of the other warriors lose their last wound. Since the magic carpet cannot be destroyed it is unnecessary to roll to for the magic carpet when a 5-6 is rolled on the Whoa Boy! table. I would also allow the other warriors travelling on the carpet to jump to safety (maybe with an Initiative test to avoid falling) if a 3-6 is rolled by the driver on the Whoa Boy! table.

Anyway, maybe some food for thought.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Fri 24 Feb 2012 - 7:06

here is the link to the merchant http://www.hong-crewet.dk/Mordheim/Warbands/MerchantHiredSword.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Fri 24 Feb 2012 - 23:00

Thanks for posting the link and the rules for the items guys.

RL@I have found 3 more rules variations for the Magic Carpet. One in Khemri, one in Relics and one other that I need to verify the source, but I hope to post those as well.

I have also found a modification of the Paw and Lamp in an old campaign module that someone sent me back in the days of snail mail. I just have to figure out if its online or not.

Thanks for the suggestions. I do want to keep the items, mainly because I don't want to re-write the various entries that they appear in in scenarios and such.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 26 Feb 2012 - 20:44

The Flying Carpet as invisioned by the Relics group,

Quote :
Flying Carpet
Many tales are told of the flying carpets of Araby and ownership of one
will bring great prestige to its holder. During the crusades, the Sultan
ordered all flying carpets to be brought to his armies so they could be used
against the invaders, so they were very hard to come during those times.
Scholars are in dispute over the origins of Flying Carpets, some claim
they are simply objects imbued with magic, whilst other contend that they
are possessed by benevolent djinn.

Flying Carpets have all the statistics and special abilities of Elven
Steeds, though they may be used by any race. They can also carry
two human-sized warriors, though it’s rider must always be a Hero.
As the carpet can fly, it ignores all terrain and can move vertically
without any penalties, though cannot attack or be attacked.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Feb 2012 - 3:45

The Relics of the Crusades version sounds good. I look forward to hearing the other version if you are able to post it but I see no reason not to choose the rules from Relics.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Feb 2012 - 11:43

For the magic carpet:

Yeah, just try putting a swivel gun on an elven steed.

OK, a few questions:

1. Does it give a +1 save like a horse?

2. Is it a large target like a horse?

3. Do you use mounted rules for getting on and off?

4. Do you use the "Whoa Boy!" table in HTH?

5. Does it bolt randomly if both the rider and guest fall off? ("Whoa Boy!")

6. Can it be captured after #5 happens?

7. Should verticle distance be counted for distance moved?
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Feb 2012 - 20:58

OK playtable and VK... who has had the Magic Carpet in the past and who was not happy about it? Razz

I cannot really answer you as I have no experience using those items (hence my total lack of understanding into the unresolved problems with the Magic Carpet). It is easy for me (and others) to quickly answer yes, no, yadda yadda yadda to your list of questions but will that be satisfactory? I think it would still leave your group with questions until you sit down and define the rules yourself.

Anyway, I'm bored so I will throw in my two cents...

1. The rules all imply yes although obviously this doesn't make sense (hence your question).
I'd say yes just to keep the rules simple.

2. How do you play shooting a mounted warrior on a horse? Do you randomise between the warrior and the mount? Would you randomise between the warriors on the Magic Carpet.
The rules say that mounts are large targets. The rules also say that any model whose main 'body' is over 2" wide or tall is a large target. The Magic Carpet would be larger than 2". I think that shooting a Magic Carpet would give the +1 bonus to shooting a larget target. Depending on how you play would dictate whether you randomise the shot between the warriors on the Magic Carpet (driver and passenger/s).

3. Yes. The warriors need to follow the rules for Mounting Animals. This may not make much sense if the Magic Carpet is lying flat on the ground (although the warriors need to secure themselves on the carpet) but does make perfect sense being landed on the ground actually represents hovering 1 foot above the ground.

4. I alluded to this in my previous post about the need for 'Ride Magic Carpet' skill. This can be argued either way (hence your question I guess). I would say 'yes' that a skill is needed to represent the warrior learning to ride the Magic Carpet well.

5. Depends on the truth of the fluff from the Relics of the Campaign rules. If it is "possessed by benevolent djinn" then it is not much of a stretch to think that it might flit around when not being controlled. If it is simply imbued with magic then it makes less sense. How are we supposed to work this out if even Arabian scholars do not know what makes the carpets magic? Wink
If using the rules from TC then no because the Magic Carpet has no Leadership value. If using the rules from Relics of the Crusades then yes.

6. If yes to 5 then definitely yes to this.

7. Yes. This made me think of another question though? If using the rules for Relics of the Crusades then can a Magic Carpet 'run'? Again I think yes so normal movement is 9" as per an Elven Steed but it can move up to 18" but only when there are no enemies around (so the Magic Carpet is not really running as such but merely this represents the caution taken by the driver). This question is mute if using the TC rules which says that a Magic Carpet can move up to 16".

playtable wrote:
For the magic carpet:

Yeah, just try putting a swivel gun on an elven steed.
This ultimately is another question. Is the passenger of a Magic Carpet treated like the passenger of a wagon and therefore allowed to shoot from the Magic Carpet? I think not though. It is a mount and just like two people riding on a horse it is necessary for the passenger to hold on so that they do not fall off.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 27 Feb 2012 - 21:00

That playtable he no like to fly unless the plane is going to Florida.

We will eventually get around to 'our' way of resolving the issues. I had hoped that because the Merchant is 'official' and I have seen posts singing his praises that someone would have ideas about his items use.

From the Khemri Land of the Dead site (downloaded several years ago, I hope they have edited it since.)
Quote :
Carpet
counts as mount allows movement of 16" no restrictions on terrain. Toughness 3 wounds 2: when one wound is gone movement is 1/2. You can move onto roofs and other high places with no penalty. If the carpet is taken OOA the rider(s) fall taking damage. After the game roll on the henchmen chart to see if the carpet survived. If the carpet is attacked by fire and taken OOA it is destroyed. No roll on the henchmen charts. The carpet may carry up to 3 men or one large creature and a man. One of the riders must be a character

My memory of the Khemri rules had more details and better punctuation. I do remember discussions of how the carpet could be attacked if it 'counts as mount'. These are the basis of the rules we used to play by before the TC.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sat 3 Mar 2012 - 12:28

It took longer than I had thought, but I finally found the source of my other rules for the 3 items, the Accursed Knowledge site.

Quote :
Rare Items in the Underground
Lamp of the Djinn 70+2D6gc/Rare 12
These are exceptionally rare items. It is said that magic and dark ritual can be used to bind strange daemonic entities to mundane, everyday items so that anyone can call upon their power. Occasionally, one of these items finds its way into the hands of a diabolical merchant in The Underground.
Each time a hero uses the lamp it grants him three wishes but each time you roll on the ‘Light table’ you must roll on the ‘Dark table’ and apply the results.

D6 Light
1. Gain D6 Experience points
2. Gain one skill from your skill list
3. +1 to any stat (not above your racial maximum)
4. Gain D6x10 gc
5. Gain a random item from the equipment list
6. Choose an item from the equipment list

D6 Dark
1. Roll once on the injury chart
2. Lose the lamp
3. Lose D6x10 gc
4. Lose D6 weapons
5. Nothing happens
6. Nothing happens

Monkey’s Paw 70+1D6gc/Rare 10
Fashioned during the blasphemous religious rites of crazed cultists, this item is made from infusing flesh with the essence of chaos. As with everything to do with the fickle powers of the dark gods, the Monkey’s Paw is not always beneficial to the user. A curse attaches itself to its owner, making him crave the power it offers.
Each time a Hero uses the paw it grants one wish (roll on the light table) and you only have to roll once for him on the dark side. Every game you have it and don’t use it you have to roll on the dark side. You may not get rid of the paw unless you use it three times or roll ‘Lose the Paw’. After the third use it disappears.
D6 Light
1. Gain D6 Experience points
2. Gain one skill from your Skill list
3. Gain D6x10 gc
4. Gain an extra Hero that you can have 2 or more of (do not exceed your maximum heroes) or treat as 5.
5. Gain an extra Henchman of your choice
6. Roll on ‘Rewards of the Shadowlord’ Chart

D6 Dark
1. Lose D6 Experience points
2. Lose one random skill
3. Lose D6x10 gc
4. Lose a randomly determined Hero
5. Lose a randomly determined Henchman
6. Lose the paw

Magic Carpet 70+D6x10gc/Rare 12
These wondrous items from a forgotten age are extremely rare, though the merchants in The Underground offer a chance to find one. They are thought to have originated from
the distant, long dead Sorcerer’s Isles.

A magic carpet is indeed just that – a carpet that flies! It is counted as a flying, animal mount. It’s an exception to the rule, in that it can be targeted by enemies, though hits against it are randomized between the carpet and any passengers It can move onto the roofs of buildings and other high places with no penalty. The carpet may carry up to three human sized warriors. One of the riders must be the Hero it has been assigned to as equipment.
Profile M12 WS4 BS0 S3 T5 W3 I6 A0 Ld 10

SPECIAL RULES
Unliving: For all intents and purposes, the Magic Carpet is not alive, so all the rules that apply to Undead also apply to the Magic Carpet (immune to poison, doesn’t need water etc).
It is also made from strange magical rituals, so effects like Blessed Water also work on the Magic Carpet in the same way as they would to Undead.
Airborne: The Magic Carpet’s only form of movement is flying. It has a fly speed of 12” and ignores terrain. It doesn’t double this range when running or charging however.
Golden Threads: Only slashing weapons can wound the Magic Carpet as other types of weapons cannot damage it severely enough.

I am a bit confused that they (whoever they are) wrote these rules before they wrote the Relics version as the above Majic Carpet Rules seem much clearer. Perhaps the composition of the group changed between projects.


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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Wed 14 Mar 2012 - 19:20

My gaming Group has been using Magic carpets and lamps of the djinn for a while, we have adapted the following rules.

It requires a hero to operate the magic carpet.
(originally i don't think it was a mount so it didn't require a skill, this also ment it was easier to steal from other players)

If a magic carpet moves anyone stepping on to a magic carpet must pass an initiative test if the carpet moves this turn.

When shooting at the magic carpet or someone on the carpet
1-2 Hits the carpet. Toughness 6 Wounds 3 .Can only be wounded by magical fire based attacks
3-6 Hits a random crew.
(this was a compromise situation between players of the carpet being able to be destroyed as originally in the town crier and it then becoming immortal)

if the carpet is destroyed in mid air all the passenger fall however far they were high
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Wed 14 Mar 2012 - 21:41

Thanks for posting your Carpet solutions.

We've never had anyone capture a carpet, though in the old days we used to shoot them down occasionally.

Any house rules for the Paw and the Lamp?
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sat 24 Mar 2012 - 7:10

We are nearing the point in the campaign when the action will move to Khemri. Thus I need to move on how to use the Paw, the Lamp and the Carpet.

The Paw and the Lamp.
I like the versions the Accursed Knowledge group came up with because they got rid of the roll twice result, which is what really breaks the item for me.

I also like Gherma's suggestion of making the gained and lost heroes into slots for heroes. Thus the warbands capacity for heroes may be increased or decreased, but the current number of warriors who are heroes doesn't increase or decrease immediately and not without a little luck.

Quote :
Lamp of the Djinn 70+2D6gc/Rare 12
These are exceptionally rare items. It is said that magic and dark ritual can be used to bind strange daemonic entities to mundane, everyday items so that anyone can call upon their power. Occasionally, one of these items finds its way into the hands of an unscrupulous merchant.
Each time a hero uses the lamp it grants him three wishes but each time you roll on the ‘Light table’ you must roll on the ‘Dark table’ and apply the results.

D6 Light
1. Gain D6 Experience points
2. Gain one skill from your skill list
3. +1 to any stat (not above your racial maximum)
4. Gain D6x10 gc
5. Gain a random item from the equipment list
6. Choose an item from the equipment list

D6 Dark
1. Roll once on the injury chart
2. Lose the lamp
3. Lose D6x10 gc
4. Lose D6 weapons
5. Nothing happens
6. Nothing happens

Monkey’s Paw 70+1D6gc/Rare 10
Fashioned during the blasphemous religious rites of crazed cultists, this item is made from infusing flesh with the essence of chaos. As with everything to do with the fickle powers of the dark gods, the Monkey’s Paw is not always beneficial to the user. A curse attaches itself to its owner, making him crave the power it offers.
Each time a Hero uses the paw it grants one wish (roll on the light table) and you only have to roll once for him on the dark side. Every game you have it and don’t use it you have to roll on the dark side. You may not get rid of the paw unless you use it three times or roll ‘Lose the Paw’. After the third use it disappears.
D6 Light
1. Gain D6 Experience points
2. Gain one skill from your Skill list
3. Gain D6x10 gc
4. Gain a Hero slot.
5. Gain an extra Henchman of your choice (you must still pay for equipment as normal)
6. Roll on ‘Rewards of the Shadowlord’ Chart

D6 Dark
1. Lose D6 Experience points
2. Lose one random skill
3. Lose D6x10 gc
4. Lose a Hero slot (down to a minimum of 4 slots). If this means that there are now too many Heroes in the warband then the Hero with the least experience may be kept but will have an upkeep just like a hired sword of xx gc per battle.
5. Lose a randomly determined Henchman
6. Lose the paw

The Magic Carpet
Counts as a Mount--I see this as a huge problem with the item. The rules for mounts don't cover any animal that may carry more than one rider. People have suggested that the roll on the dread Whoa Boy table be made when any passenger suffers his last wound or when the last passenger suffers his last wound or...

I would rather the carpet counted as a living vehicle. Thus when the hero that owns the carpet is taken OOA or perhaps falls off after being stunned or knocked down, then the carpet could crash or fly off in a random direction. Also counting the carpet as a vehicle explains how it may be attacked separately from the riders, etc.

The owner must have the skill Drive Carpets or whatever (Command Carpet?) The carpet may be damaged and removed from play when it suffers its last wound. Passengers may suffer damage when the carpet is removed due to damage. Such things would be much easier to figure out than a crashing wagon for example.

As for the carpet being a shooting platform, that is how we have played it in the past (certain vocal complaints notwithstanding). The carpet is magical and doesn't have anything to hold on to if you wanted to. Its not like two riders on a horse who can hold on to each other and grip the horse with their legs or hold on to saddles, ropes or straps. its a flying piece of fabric.


Last edited by Von Kurst on Sun 8 Apr 2012 - 19:58; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 8 Apr 2012 - 19:52

Magic Carpet house rules

Quote :
Magic Carpet 70+D6x10gc/Rare 12
These wondrous items from a forgotten age are extremely rare, though the merchants of Araby offer a chance to find one. They are thought to have originated from the distant, long dead Sorcerer’s Isles.
A magic carpet is indeed just that – a carpet that flies! It is counted as a flying, sentient vehicle. Enemies can target it, though hits against it are randomized between the carpet and any passengers. It can move onto the roofs of buildings and other high places with no penalty. The carpet may carry up to three human sized warriors. One of the riders must be the Hero it has been assigned to as equipment.
Profile
M 12 S 0 T 5 W 3
SPECIAL RULES
Unliving: For all intents and purposes, the Magic Carpet is not alive, so all the rules that apply to Undead also apply to the Magic Carpet (immune to poison, doesn’t need water etc). It is also made from strange magical rituals, so effects like Blessed Water also work on the Magic Carpet in the same way as they would to Undead.
Airborne: The Magic Carpet’s only form of movement is flying. It has a fly speed of 12” and ignores terrain. It doesn’t double this range when running or charging however.
Shooting at the Carpet: The Carpet counts as a Large Target. Missile weapon and magical ranged attacks at the carpet hit the carpet on a roll of 1-2, a roll of 3-6 hits a random passenger.
Attacking the Carpet in Melee: The carpet may not be attacked if there is an unengaged passenger.
Golden Threads: The Carpet has a 5+ save against all attacks except magic, magical weapons and fire. Weapon or strength modifiers do not modify this save.
Flammable: The Carpet takes double damage from wounds caused by fire.
Command: As long as its owner has the Skill Command Magic Carpet, the Carpet will move normally.
If the owner wishes to fly his carpet without this skill, he must pass a Ld test every time he or the Carpet suffer a wound. Failure of the test, or if the owner of the carpet is OOA or falls off the Carpet for any reason, results in the Carpet moving 2D6 in a random direction. If this movement takes the Carpet into contact with any type of obstacle, the Carpet will crash. The carpet and any passengers suffer D3 S4 hits. If the Carpet collides with a living obstacle, the unfortunate takes D3 S4 hits as well.
Falling: If the Carpet is destroyed or if a passenger falls off of the Carpet, the passenger suffers a S2 hit if the Carpet is on ground level. If the Carpet is above ground level (on a roof for example) the passenger suffers falling damage from the height above the ground.

I probably have forgotten several things, but I tried to cover more occurances than the other rules, since I know they come up. C&C welcome. We won't start using these rules for a couple of days at least! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 8 Apr 2012 - 20:04

Revised Lamp and Paw
I was trying to find a way to incorporate more Khemri elements and to make the Hero and Henchmen slot idea work for me. Result:

Quote :
Lamp of the Djinn 70+2D6gc/Rare 12
These are exceptionally rare items. It is said that magic and dark ritual can be used to bind strange daemonic entities to mundane, everyday items so that anyone can call upon their power. Occasionally, one of these items finds its way into the hands of an unscrupulous merchant.
Each time a hero uses the lamp it grants him three wishes but each time you roll on the ‘Light table’ you must roll on the ‘Dark table’ and apply the results.

D6 Light
1 Gain D6 Experience points
2 Gain one skill from your skill list
3 Gain D6x10 gc
4 Gain a random item from the equipment list for Araby
5 Choose an item from the equipment list for Araby
6 Gain a Genie Hired Sword for no Hire or upkeep fee for the next game. If you wish to keep the Genie beyond the next game you must pay an upkeep fee for subsequent games. Unless this result is rolled again, in which case the Genie will wave the upkeep fee for one game per additional roll of this result.

D6 Dark
1 Roll once on the injury chart
2 Lose the lamp. If the warband also has a Genie Hired sword tied to the lamp, the Genie leaves as well.
3 Lose D6x10 gc
4 Lose D6 weapons
5 Nothing happens
6 Nothing happens

Monkey’s Paw 70+1D6gc/Rare 10
Fashioned during the blasphemous religious rites of crazed cultists, this item is made from infusing flesh with the essence of chaos. As with everything to do with the fickle powers of the dark gods, the Monkey’s Paw is not always beneficial to the user. A curse attaches itself to its owner, making him crave the power it offers.
Each time a Hero uses the paw it grants one wish (roll on the light table) and you only have to roll once for him on the dark side. Every game you have it and don’t use it you have to roll on the dark side. You may not get rid of the paw unless you use it three times or roll ‘Lose the Paw’. After the third use it disappears.
D6 Light
1 Gain D6 Experience points
2 Gain one skill from your Skill list
3 Gain D6x10 gc
4 Gain an extra Hero slot to a maximum of 8.
5 Gain an extra Henchman slot. This result may increase the number of possible warriors in the warband to a maximum of +5.
6 Roll on ‘Rewards of the Shadowlord’ Chart.

D6 Dark
1 Lose D6 Experience points
2 Lose one random skill
3 Lose D6x10 gc
4 Lose a Hero slot to a minimum of 4. If you have more heroes than slots the hero with the lowest experience becomes the equivalent of a captured Swabbie Hero from the Pirate warband. He does retain his equipment and skills, however he does not gain more experience, nor may he search for rare items or count for exploration.
5 Lose a Henchman slot to a maximum of 10 warriors. If this causes the warband to exceed its maximum number of warriors, a random Henchman dies or leaves the warband. He takes all of his equipment with him.
6 Lose the paw

Again C&C is welcome.

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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 8 Apr 2012 - 20:27

Von Kirst -

If the Magic carpet "crashes" is it destroyed or can it be captured or controlled by smeone coming into contact with it?
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 9 Apr 2012 - 5:29

If it suffers 3 wounds it is OOA(?) But if it is has lost its passengers, it may be captured.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Sun 6 May 2012 - 20:28

The Lamp of the Djinn revisited.

So I thought that adding a genie to the lamp was pretty clever. There's a genie hired sword in the Khemri setting that never gets used, so why not?

~Well maybe because the genie hired sword was never completed? I've skimmed the rules a couple of times and never gotten past the 80 gold hiring fee. Oops. It turns out the HS was used as the basis for the Dramatis Personae Karmel the Djinn.
~Maybe because the text seems to be full of cut an paste errors that are contradictory? ~Maybe because there is no entry that tells you how much the Genie adds to the warband rating?

So I adapted a new Genie HS from the previous rules.

Quote :
Genie
Loosely based on a concept by Tommy Punk and Steven Gibbs
40 gold crowns to hire + 20 gold crowns upkeep
Genies are magical spirits that reside in the desert, they may be summoned, a ritual similar to that of daemon summoning. Genies come in many sizes and forms they are all independent spirit and have their own name. As with daemons knowing a genie’s name gives a person great power over it. The genies are ancient and know many forgotten secrets. Many sorcerers and priests summon genies to answer their questions. Sultan Jaffar was known to have been in prolonged contact with the mightiest of them. Araby sorcerers use genies as guardians. They also use lesser genies as servants. If an araby sorcerer has a familiar this will usually be a lesser genie.
Common forms of genies are a whirling column of air, a small sand storm, a pillar of fire, a fat harem guard or just an insubstantial haze. Genies are also called Efreet, Djinn, elemental, spirit, jinn, jann or sand/wind/fire daemon.


May hire: Any warband except Witch Hunters and Sisters of Sigmar may hire a Genie.
Rating: A Genie increases a warband's rating by +20 points, plus 1 point for each Experience point the genie has.

Profile: Genie M5 WS3 BS0 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 L8
Special: Fear, Elemental Magic. Equipment: magic and a 5+ Ward Save against all attacks except magic and magical weapons.

SPECIAL RULES
Fear: The Genies naturally radiate an aura of strength and courage. Therefore Genies cause fear in their enemies.

Elemental Magic: Genies tend to be related to one of the magical elements of water, fire, earth or air. The Genie uses the Elemental Magic lsit from the Araby Tomb Raider warband, TC #20

Genies may start with one spell and the special skills below when they are hired. If they roll a skill for an advance, they may choose a spell from the same list or the academic skill sorcery.

SPECIAL SKILLS
Genies have special powers that are a part of their magical nature. You may use one of these powers at the start of your turn, the power lasts till the end of your opponents turn. The Genie must choose a different power on each of its turns

Whirlwind: The Genie has the power to turn into a whirlwind to move around faster. This can take many forms E.G. a pillar of sand, a blazing fire or a hazy movement in the air. The Genie can run at triple his move but may not charge or be charged. The Genie can make no attacks or cast magic while using this power, but it is at -1 to hit with missile weapons.

Genie's Curse: The Genie attracts and controls a host of mischievous sprites. These interfere with all of the Genie's enemies within 4" causing them to have a -1 penalty to their hit rolls and all saves.

Lucky: The Genies are very lucky and by summoning his luck he can avoid being harmed. This power confers a Ward save of 4+ against all wounds.
C & C welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Mon 7 May 2012 - 10:20

Nick Kyme developed the rules for these items. They seem fine to me.

We have a flying doormat coming to effect in our current campaign. Carpet ought to be pretty cheeky for moving cargo objectives around! Let's hope the Cathayan house-guard riding across the canals ends up getting his magic rug soggy. Wink

The paw and the lamp are dicey. I like the way they behave irrationally. Irritating play effects always get a reaction from players. Getting rid of annoying followers when playing Talisman is similarly entertaining for the other participants. It certainly lends some spice to the story! Avoid using these types of effects if anyone in your campaign group is a bad sport. LoL
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Tue 8 May 2012 - 3:29

@werekin... You sure hold Nick Kyme and his Mordheim rules in high esteem. Smile I concur that the rules as written (and probably even VK's rules) should only be used in gaming groups focusing on 'fun' (and 'story') as much or more as 'competition'.


@VK... The genie sounds interesting. I don't have enough games under my belt to be able to provide much comment. I do have two questions though...

Quote :

SPECIAL SKILLS
Genies have special powers that are a part of their magical nature. You may use one of these powers at the start of your turn, the power lasts till the end of your opponents turn. The Genie must choose a different power on each of its turns.
It says you "may use one of these powers at the start of your turn" and then it says the "Genie must choose a different power on each of its turns." The simple explanation is that if you choose to use a power then it must be different to the power that you last used. Would that be the correct interpretation?

Quote :

Lucky: The Genies are very lucky and by summoning his luck he can avoid being harmed. This power confers a Ward save of 4+ against all wounds.
I'm not familiar with Khemri. Does the term "Ward save" have any special meaning. I recall in Warhammer Fantasy Battle (and I could be very wrong because I haven't played WFB) that a "Ward save" has a special meaning that is more powerful than a mere "Armour save". Is this what you mean or do you simply mean an Amour save?
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Tue 8 May 2012 - 9:46

@RationalLemming: "Ward Save" refers to a save unmodified by the strength of the attacker. The "Step Aside" skill would be considered a 5+ Ward Save in melee combat. It is an additional save taken after a failed armor save (if the model has armor).
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PostSubject: Re: The Arabian Merchant Problem   Tue 8 May 2012 - 13:01

Quote :
Nick Kyme developed the rules for these items.
Mr. Kyme, eh? I should have known he was involved. tongue

@Rational--
Quote :
The simple explanation is that if you choose to use a power then it must be different to the power that you last used. Would that be the correct interpretation?

Yes. Thank you.
Quote :
I'm not familiar with Khemri. Does the term "Ward save" have any special meaning.
Being familiar with Khemri would not help, since they are as bad as I am for using different terms for similar concepts. Ward save is a Warhammer term as explained above. In some editions of Warhammer it is also sometimes called a Special save.
I blame my editor.
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