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 An idea for improving handguns

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Edyy
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PostSubject: An idea for improving handguns   Tue 14 Feb 2012 - 20:54

I was thinking about what the real world advantages of using a Handgun and it was that anyone could use it without much training and still be effective. So how about having them usable by anyone who can use missile weapons and give anyone using one +1BS as long as they are below BS4? what do peole think to this idea?
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Saranor
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 1:24

Sounds interesting, but Reiklander or marksmen with BS advance wouldn't use them.

I prefer mostly to give this weapons a special area to excel:
Option A: S5 on short range. With the rule that they can only fire every other turn the saying "shoot first if you see the white in their eyes" it would make them interesting to use. You can shoot at long range, to hit them earlier or you wait to get the S5 shoot at the risk, you get outmanoeuvred.
Option B: Improve all armor by 1, than give the handgun the rule "improved armor piercing" inlcuding S4 they reduce the armor save by 3. They would be can opener for enemies encased in gromril or heavy armor.
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Zero2Hero-DK
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 2:50

I've thought of a way to improve handguns as well, so this post is very interesting!
The current problem is that the handgun is so much inferior to the crossbow, because of the range and combination with quick shot (which IMO should be restricted to bows only).
I like the half range +1str modifier, and the gamble associated with the action.
There is another option to have accessories to your handguns such as precision scopes and counter weights to improve performance.

Say, the scope would increase the range and/or accuracy and counter weights would make the model move and shoot or some thing like that. In this way one would have to find all of these accessories and make it a personal quest to "develop" an unique handgun with special attributes.
consider this flavor text to a new academic skill:
"Black powder weapons are rare to find in mordheim, and accessories even harder to find crafters reckless enough to experiment on there weapons. The model is specialized in crafting accessories to their black powder weapons. Instead of finding rare items, dramatic personae and the like, the model may instead craft the below items..."

each attempt to craft such an item should have risks involved; ex the chance of exploding and causing injuries or something.

Then it could be made even funnier to collect rare materials such as black lotus, or an ithilmar hammer as ingredients to making the equipment.


That could be awesome to specialize a merc warband, and craft special equipment for the members Smile

btw, does the skill "Hunter" work on handguns as well? I don't remember.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 3:30

Remove "move or fire" rule (aureus idea) AND basic cost of handguns the same as crossbows, although rarity roll and D6 gc still applies
So now you can choose between long rage crossbow or shorter range but mobile handgun.

Quote :
There is another option to have accessories to your handguns such as precision scopes and counter weights to improve performance.
I think thats "too modern" approach considering quality of handguns in times of Mordheim. And there's always hochland long rifle if you want true marksman weapon.
This would be useful:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/400919.page
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 4:25

I don't see that giving +1 BS to using Handguns for warriors with BS3 and lower would solve too much. This is essentially a watered down version of 'Accuracy' for Duelling Pistols. Crossbows will still be the 'king' of missile weapons.

Saranor has mentioned a few ideas that have been mentioned in previous discussions. I think that improving armour goes a long way to making Handguns more viable. I also like the idea (proposed by Von Kurst) to slightly nerf Crossbows instead of buffing Handguns. Removing the ability to use 'Quick Shot' with Crossbows would help tone them down compared to Handguns.
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SerialMoM
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 5:50

We improved handguns to S 5 and nerfed Quickshot by adding a minus 1 for shooting twice.

Remove move or fire is an option but then crossbow and handguns are to similar in my opinion.
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Pathfinder Dubstyles
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 10:44

I like your thinking, most players agree some weapons/armor require house rules to increase diversity in warbands. But I just don't see shot and powder being any easier to operate than a crossbow, considering the technical knowledge (remember the society depicted) needed to reload and maintain it.

Crafting items is certainly an idea I have not yet heard for mordheim, which I think deserves a new topic.

But back to handguns, my group's house rule is to exclude crossbows from quick shot, while giving handguns and long rifles +1 on injury rolls ("large bore"). We also have a new strength skill:

Strong pull: after shooting a crossbow this model may shoot again if they pass a strength test.

It is supposed to simulate strong guys being able to reload crossbows faster. That way it encouraged different types of warriors to invest in different items, and hopefully makes them all viable options.
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 15 Feb 2012 - 17:40

In my circle we halved the price of mundane body armour and made handguns roll two injury dice, choosing the highest. That, combined with the armour-piercing has seen their use increase, but not to the point that everyone takes one that can.
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MyLittlePwny
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Fri 17 Feb 2012 - 0:00

We're playing with s5 on short range. We did also change the criticals on all weapons to make armor better though, so now it's a real can-opener and people actually buy them (or vampire-opener yay!)

I actually read an article about the first handguns and they were very inaccurate - actually up until the american civil war, the longbow was easier to hit with if you had the training. Thus I think it would make good sense, that it's easier to hit vital parts if the enemy is closer and therefore it does more damage up close..
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BalrogTheBuff
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Fri 17 Feb 2012 - 8:24

As Edyy mentioned the nice thing about early blackpowder weapons was that it only took around 3 days to train men in the use of them to battlefield standards. Since they were using them into formations (look up Pike and Shot formations) accuracy was not a big issue. Also the gun was loud and harder to see coming so was much more a psychological issue.

One idea to represent that is anyone hit by a gun could take an all alone test. So if you are caught alone and shot at you might run. Of course anyone who is in a group would be immune.

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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Fri 17 Feb 2012 - 8:35

That is a really interesting idea balrog! It makes sense and combined with str5 at half range, they would become feared weapons. Would you apply that to all black powder weapons, pistols included, or just the larger ones?

I have had bad experiences with Nuln Gunners mostly armed with db handguns, which with our current house rules decimated two equally rated warbands at the same time! I urge you all to be weary of this warband, or other mercenaries abusing them on their heroes. I have since outlawed Nuln, it works well with no house rules to improve black powder, but the two in combination seems like overkill.
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Fri 17 Feb 2012 - 8:44

I think I would say it would only be for Handguns and Swivel Guns (at least Ball, maybe not others), Rifles etc. I think a blunderbuss is scary enough and you see it coming even if you can't react. A pistol I think is too short range and already good enough.

The real psychological impact seemed to be from the unknown source of danger. Or at least highly difficult to predict.
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Fri 17 Feb 2012 - 10:39

So the real first handguns were easy to learn to use and i bet they were cheap too.

I think you would only use an accurate weapon when it a cheap and easy to produce.

Maxbe a total other idea.

Handgun with rules as they are, but with an additional-1 to hit modifier for long range ( inaccurate)
Cost: 15 gc

A marksman costs 40 gc. You can choose between handgun and longbow for the same price

What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Sun 19 Feb 2012 - 22:57

I kind of like the idea of dropping move-or-shoot from both crossbows and handguns, and make both fire every other turn. Makes sense to me that way. All you have to do to shoot them is pull the trigger, but they're slow to reload. Add skills that let them fire every turn or whatever.

Seems a little more usable in game, too. In my experience I barely get to fire crossbows because the enemy just never moves into LoS of models armed with them, and I'm constantly chasing a position to shoot at something.
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Sun 19 Feb 2012 - 22:59

Or maybe you can only fire two turns in a row if you haven't moved (you sat focused on reloading, whatever) but otherwise you can fire after moving.
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Mon 20 Feb 2012 - 14:33

I think that fire every other turn with both crossbows and handguns would work well. Its a real pain having hencmen with crossbows who cant take skills as they just never get a decent shot at anything. I use them in my Estalian warband as it suits the fluff, yet they never get to shoot so end up being rather expensive cannon fodder. This rule might cheer them up a bit.


Last edited by The Yak on Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 6:14; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 6:12

Had a trial game last night using the Crossbows/Handguns can move and fire but only fire every other turn. Took two henchmen with crossbows and one with a handgun. It was interesting as my little Estalians got to shoot!!! Ok they never hit anyone (-1 move and fire -1 cover as usual = 6 to hit) but it definitely felt better. My mate said he did have to think about where he positioned his men unlike usual were he just ensures they finish their move out of site of a crossbow wielder.

I think in a campaign it could be different. When marksmen start to accumulate characteristic increases the chances of them hitting something and justifying their cost should improve drastically.

We will have a few more trials over the next week or so with increased stats to see how it works.
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 7:12

One question by the way. Why haven't you used any bows yet?

What i don'tlike is that the both weapons are too samy, with your current draft house rules.

But if it works for you, than it is finei think.
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 7:44

I dont personally care for historiacl aspects too much.
But I do like the idea of S5 at half range. Atm I see no reason to take one over a crossbow. Also liked the idea of -1 for firing twice with quickshot.

edit:spelling
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 10:17

maybe to keep them diffrent have the hand gun remove "move and shoot" and the x-bow keep it.
this will give the hand gun a reason to have it for the higher cost and still considering that it has the rule of "prep shot" it may still balance out.
also like the 5 s at half range for the hand gun.
should make it usefull with both those rules and make it so people take them more.
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The Yak
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PostSubject: Re: An idea for improving handguns   Wed 22 Feb 2012 - 11:48

The problem with bows is self inflicted. I have made my warband out of the classic GW Estalian's and Pirazzo's Lost Legionaires. The weapon types available are crossbows or handguns and it suits the theme well. Bows are so usefull and after each battle I declare that I will get some, then I look at my poor little crossbowmens faces and cant bring myself to do it.

I will try the +1S at half range, sounds interesting.
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