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 Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim

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shotguncoffee
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PostSubject: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 6:14

Okay, I ripped off Asp and a few others. Please help me brainstorm!

REIKLAND
Special item: Full Plate Armour (4+ save)
Special item: ?

Special Rule: Champions have the 'leader' abilility
Special Rule: All humans have +1" to the total distance moved when *not* running or charging.
Special Rule: ?

MIDDENHEIM
Special item: White Wolf Hammer (great weapon with +1 S vs. animals an beastmen)
Special item: Wolf Cloak (extra 6+ save vs. missile fire. no effect vs. Blackpowder)

Special Rule: All heroes have access to Strength skills in addition to their other skills
Special Rule: Captains and Champions do not wear helmets (it says so in the fluff)
Special Rule: Captains and Champions can use Throwing Axes - or something else??

MARIENBURG
Special item: Freetrader Ring: (+1 to rarity rolls and at the start of each battle, roll a D6: (1-3) Poison (4-6) Crimson Shade
Special item: Silks & Plumes: Wearer gains an additional +1 XP for taking enemy heroes out of action (in close combat only). If wearer is taken OOA, silks & plumes are automatically lost.

Special Rule: Each post battle, deduct 15gc from the upkeep of any 1 Hired Sword.
Special Rule: Champions have access to all five skill lists.
Special Rule: ??


Last edited by shotguncoffee on Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 17:42; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 6:22

Why do you think they have to be rebalanced?

Do you use another List for middenheim? In my version all heroes have already access to strength skills.

Reiklander are already very strong, why do you want to boost them?
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 6:24

I just think they could be spiced up, that's all.
An alternative list of sorts.

Which would mean that the existing bonuses do not apply.

REIKLAND
Their fluff says that they are great officers and well disciplined. Why does that mean BS4? It doesn't.

MIDDENHEIM
Automatic access to Strength means that henchmen promoted to heroes get three skill lists rather than the normal two.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 8:46

Why not rebalance them? I like the idea although i mostly play Marienburgers. I like their elitist snub background. Currently the best rules does have the Reiklanders due to their superior firepower

Why not give the leader of the Marienburger the possibility to purchase cathayan silk cloak from start.

Is the crmson shade or poison of the freetrader ring free of charge? Can i sell them ( which would mean an additional badic income, which i think is too strong in addition to the reduced hired sword costs).

Maybe the reduction for hired sword is only possible for " fitting" hired swords. I think of Imperial assassin, Tilean marksman, halfling cook, a bard, or a sophisticated warlock. I don't believe they would hire an beggar or so.

The middenheimers should get the possibility ( like now) to hire an Ulfric priest instead of an champion.

Maybe the Reikland champions ( and Youngblods) get an Ld boost of 1. Idon't know if Reiklanders are famous for their range combat abilities. Maybe they can hire 2 veteran marksman with BS4 and additionally BS3 marksman like he others?
Maybe give them access to a Pavise ( which needs sn rule rework anyway)
Maybe a plate armour costs at the start 75 gc and later 150 ( like gromril armour)
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 8:55

Thanks, SerialMoM

Marienburg is my favorite too. I hope I haven't made them the new 'best mercs'.

The Silks & Plumes replace Silk Cloak, basically. And ya, they are common at start.

Poisons and Crimson Shade from ring is intended to ONLY be used by wearer and ONLY for the upcomming battle or they are lost.

As for Hired Swords, we only use the ones in the core rulebook, so only: Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Warlock, Freelancer, Ogre or Pit Fighter. All have fluff that fit with Marienburg.

Middenheim Priest: I don't know about that. I know its very popular to give them Priest of Ulric. But they are mercenaries, not a cult or official regiment. Middenheimers are no more likely to have a Priest of Ulric on board than Reiklanders are of having a Priest of Sigmar aboard.

Reiklanders starting with +1 Ld is tempting. That is what Asp has done. I just think its boring because (1) Its not unique (2) Its not particularly helpful.

As far as I can see, there is nothing in *any* fluff what so ever that says that Reiklanders are better shooters than anyone else. But Champions with starting BS4 might be interesting to look into.

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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 9:47

I have nothing against changing rules, but "rebalancing" is not the term i would have used. You try to fit them better an the background.
I just wanted more introduction, that i can understand your intention.

I like your ideas, but i would have liked your response to reikland in your first post.
Perhaps something like that:
REIKLAND
Their fluff says that they are great officers and well disciplined. Why does that mean BS4? It doesn't.
Suggested Changes:
- drop BS4
- to represent their good chain of command all champions get +1 Ld and a smaller version of the "Leader"-Ability, that works in 3"
- they can buy the banner (Annual) and item X, Y and Z from start
- perhaps they get more specialized warriors (like 2 BS 4 marksmen, "Interceptors" that can interceps in 3" instead of 2" and even if he stand behind the target)
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 9:50

Okay, I get it. Well its a re-alignment with the fluff. Admins are welcome to change the thread title.

Nice ideas about Reiklanders. It would be fluffy to do something with interceptions to represent their superior drill. However, interception range 3" instead of 2" seems boring and not something that someone would read and go: "YES! I want to be reiklanders so bad!"
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 10:18

I like the LD +1, drop 4BS, and give the Champions a "Leadership bubble" though I think the standard 6" would be fine for them OR if at 3" allow them to also pick up the battle toungs (+3") skill. That means a clause that allows them to pick this one skill out of Academic skills.
maybe do the same for Young Bloods but they don't start with the skill (or allow them to start with it bug pay extra only at the hire phase) and allow them to earn this skill twice to get to a full on 6" LD bubble.

Maybe instead of a static unit allowing the interception to raise from 2 to a 3 for a special unit take the concept of there marksmen of altering a unit they already have and give all Heroes a new special rule.
-Any Warriors (yes Warriors not swordsmen or Marksmen or other heroes) that are with in the Leadership radious of a Hero can double there Interception range.

And as LD is there true skill this special rule/skill
-Cordinated Searche: At the end of any battle durring the search phase any Hero with this skill can add +/-1 to there search results for a henchmen not taken out of action.
This doesn't have to be a "skill" and could be a special rule with some modification; If the Leader did not go OOA he can add +1 dice to there search roll and then remove any one dice of there choice or a re roll on the search.
The reason I go this rout is because I remember reading in the FAQ (I think there) that the reason henchmen don't search is because it is not just heroes searching but rather the heroes directing the henchmen in the search. So it stands to reason that in this case that the Reiklanders leadership would expand beyound the battle field.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 10:35

Nice. I do think its important to keep the changes simple and coherent, though.

I also thought of this:

Tacticians: After the deployment zones have been determined, but before any models have been placed on the table, the Reikland player may choose two buildings and have them swap places. (When placing them anew, he may rotate them as well, as long as they can fit on to the board.)
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 11:12

Tacticians sounds cool but i'm not sure if thats a "leadership" kind of thing so much. though a cool rule to put in resever for another warband.

as to the LD radious, then i think maybe just give it as a static 6" for champians, 3" for young bloods
add to this the +1 LD for Champians and you should be good there.
And the warriors in the LD radious get double intercept range and maybe some other bonus like also double "I" for spotting hidden models?
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 12:29

Ok, if we say that Reikland is based off the Army of Preussia, this is what set the Preussians apart from the other armies of their time:

- Tirailleur tactics, skirmishing and harassing (hard to model in Mordheim)
- Combined arms, integration of cavalry, artillery and infantry (likewise)
- Many middle officiers (we already have this Very Happy)
- Maneuverability, and aggressive command (may the Captain could do something akin to Vanhel's Dance Macabre)
- Shock tactics, strking at flanks and rear, overpowering surprise attacks
- Good speed and offence; emphasis on attack
- Weak on logistics, spying, intelligence
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Fri 27 Jan 2012 - 13:05

Idea: They could have +1" to the total distance moved when *not* running or charging. This would also make them slightly better with bows etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Sat 28 Jan 2012 - 20:20

Reiklanders:

Military Drill: Due to their superior drill and organization, they may always re-roll the die when rolling for sides, and in scenarios where a warband must roll for reinforcements (ie: ambush) Reiklanders may re-roll reinforcement rolls.

Look our sir! Reiklander henchmen may intercept missile attacks in the same way that they may intecept charges. Henchmen may also re-roll fear tests when intercepting charges for a hero.

Military Equipment: Reiklanders may purchase larmor for 1/2 the normal cost during warband creation.

Replace +1 BS for marksmen with +1 WS for warriors who use halberds (the standard weapon for the Empire).

What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Sun 29 Jan 2012 - 5:16

some good ideas, certainly also very fluffy.

i like the look out sir, rule. military drill, i dont know.

halberds: i personally do not like skills that only work with certain weapons. at least not from start as it forces the player to use the warband in a certain way. like the strongmen from carnival of chaos. why would one ever use anything but great weapons on them? poor design.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Sun 29 Jan 2012 - 8:43

What about giving Reiklanders a henchmen "Veterans" or such. +1 WS, +1BS or even T, reroll all failed Psych tests (or immune to psych?). Something to show they have tough men who are calm, skilled, and have survived a lot to get where they are now. Seems like the thing Reiklanders would produce.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Sun 29 Jan 2012 - 10:49

shotguncoffee wrote:
Ok, if we say that Reikland is based off the Army of Preussia, this is what set the Preussians apart from the other armies of their time:

- Tirailleur tactics, skirmishing and harassing (hard to model in Mordheim)
- Combined arms, integration of cavalry, artillery and infantry (likewise)
- Many middle officiers (we already have this Very Happy)
- Maneuverability, and aggressive command (may the Captain could do something akin to Vanhel's Dance Macabre)
- Shock tactics, strking at flanks and rear, overpowering surprise attacks
- Good speed and offence; emphasis on attack
- Weak on logistics, spying, intelligence

If they are in 6" of their leader or 3" of a champion they can make a Ld-Test to march even in 8" of an enemy. Or they can intercept normal moving, not only charging. That would give them an edge on combat movement over their enemies.

Or they are very good at maneuvers that they are very difficult to intercept. Enemies have to make an Ini-Test to intercept them.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Sun 29 Jan 2012 - 12:39

thanks for more suggestions! keep them comming, all!

how about:

REIKLANDERS
SUPERIOR DRILL: Automatically pass I tests for charging enemies out of line of sight and may intercept up to 4".

?

These rules are fluffy, but are they enticing? Would anyone actually pick Reiklanders over Marienburg's tricks or Middenheim's force? I don't think so. Reikland needs something more.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 1:51

I personally have always had trouble with the balance and uniqueness of the mercenary bands as well.

I really like your ideas on Marienburg and Middenheim, they make both considerably different than the others.

For Reikland what we have been doing is the following:

-The Captain starts with the Battle Tongue Skill
- The Champions have 6" leadership bubbles
- The Captain and Champions gain +1 to their parry rolls (allowing them to essentially roll a 7). I felt this was representative of the extensive training and skill with a blade that I feel the Empire fluff uses to portray Reikland ( I mean look at all the elite units out of there, Reiksguard, Reiksguard foot knights, can't remember the greatsword regiment...., you get the picture).

Just a suggestion.

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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 5:20

Quote :

- The Captain and Champions gain +1 to their parry rolls (allowing them to essentially roll a 7). I felt this was representative of the extensive training and skill with a blade that I feel the Empire fluff uses to portray Reikland ( I mean look at all the elite units out of there, Reiksguard, Reiksguard foot knights, can't remember the greatsword regiment...., you get the picture).


Reiksguard were founded almost 500 years after mordheim by Wilhelm III. The only famous "reikland" unit in time of mord were carroburg greatswords (1865). I think that reikland rules need no changing especially turning their heroes into best officers in the world. 12" leadership is enough to represent how fine their OFFICER is. I'm not considering champions as officer - only the captain. note that only he get's that bonus - if he dies, champion's "leader" is common 6".
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 12:44

Hmm, I thought the Reiksguard were older than that, especially considering that Mordheim took place only 500 years ago, but I could be mistaken.

As for Reikland rules, they definitely need changing, +1 BS on their marksmen is absolutely unfair.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 14:49

So am I correct in that the criteria for a fitting change for Reikländer should be
1. making them fit the background
2. keeping them appealing (BF4 is quite appealing to me ^^)
?

I read the suggestions and what would make me pick the Reikländer is not getting marchblocked ( I HATE it and I don't often use that word) or the tactician skill

So possibilities could imo be
A: 12" Leader bubble for the leader and the tactician skill (leader being a Captain or not)
B: 12" Leader bubble for the leader, 3" for the sergeants, Ld7 for Youngbloods + every model being able to always march when passing a leadership test. I think B would represent the chain of command quite well and lets the models interact rather nicely
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 15:34

"B" fits them better for there fluff and also I am always found of having models work well together. It would make them of more use as well.
I would also make it so that all heroes can get Battle Tongue Skill. Even Young Bloods as they are in my mind training to become full fledged heroes. like a squire to knights.

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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Thu 2 Feb 2012 - 6:06

While Leader Range 12" is in the rulebook is actually think that it is an uninteresting, even bad, mechanic.

Three bubbles of 6" is much preferable to 1 x 12" and 2 x 3" IMO. In terms of design that is.
With 1 x 12" you always just want to increase Ld for the Cpatain but with 3 x 6" you'd want to increase Ld for ALL of them. Also 3 x 6" reflects their ability to maintain coherence should the Captain go down. They're a paramilitary group, after all. Not serfs who are held in line by a mighty commander. (That would be Talabheim.)

So REIKLAND SPECIAL RULES

Army Officers: Reikland Champions start with Ld8 and have the 'Commander' ability. (Friendly warriors within 6” may use Champions' Leadership instead of their own. Not active while Captain is fleeing or stunned.)

AND

Superior Drill: Reiklander Warriors and Swordsmen have the Battle Sense Combat skill. (They may intercept 4" instead of the normal 2" and automatically pass Initiative tests for Charging enemies that are out of Line-of-Sight. (That are behind a wall, around a corner etc.)

OR

Battle Reaction: Reiklander Warriors and Swordsmen may intercept non-Charging movement if they pass an Ld test.
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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Thu 2 Feb 2012 - 7:39

Is interception really so appealing?
Variant B: Being able to intercept non-charging movement messes up the whole turn-system I think. And why would an enemy not charge if they are so close to you?

A: if this works without Ld-tests, why improve it so much on the heroes?In MH, Ld is not THAT important to anyone besides the captain if you are not up against undead. If you don't give the warband an additional chance to use that higher leaderchip, there is not much need for the additional bubbles.

3 6" bubbles instead of 12/3/3 sounds fine...

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PostSubject: Re: Re-balancing Reikland, Marienburg, Middeheim   Thu 2 Feb 2012 - 8:09

Grimscull wrote:
Is interception really so appealing?
Variant B: Being able to intercept non-charging movement messes up the whole turn-system I think. And why would an enemy not charge if they are so close to you?

A: if this works without Ld-tests, why improve it so much on the heroes?In MH, Ld is not THAT important to anyone besides the captain if you are not up against undead. If you don't give the warband an additional chance to use that higher leaderchip, there is not much need for the additional bubbles.

3 6" bubbles instead of 12/3/3 sounds fine...

Interception is crucial. I think increasing the interception range is a huge benefit, as it allows for the non-charging player to decide who fights the enemy a lot more. I always place my warband members carefully so as to be able to intercept as many charge routes as possible. It's definitely a fitting bonus for the Reiklanders? But, IMHO, no intercepting ordinary movement, that's too powerful.
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