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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 11:22

Ok. So first of all, Witch hunters get::

Witch hunters special skills list

Iron resolve (witch hunter captain only)
Witch hunter captain knows, that his holly mission is most important - it must be accomplished, no matter the cost!
This skill allows WHCaptain to re-roll any failed Rout tests.


Fearsome reputation (witch hunter captain/witch hunters)
This Witch Hunter is known for his single-minded determination and deeds (people who lack faith say atrocities), he "commited" in protection of peoples of Sigmar. After all, burned village is nothing when one heretic is discovered, and brought to justice....
This model causes fear in opposing models.

Righteous Fury (witch hunter captain/witch hunters)
The Wich Hunter feels cold fury and utter contempt towards any evil that pollutes the soil of the holy Empire with its presence.
The model hates all Skaven, Undead, Orcs, Dark Elves, Possessed or any Evil or Chaotic warbands and all models in them.

Skill name?? (witch hunter captain/witch hunters)
All Witch Hunters are trained in fighting with sword in one hand, and pistol in the other, but this templar became adept in this style.

Witch hunter gets +1 WS for using pistol and sword combination in any hand to hand combat phase. After firing a pistol in a first round of any combat, witch hunter must use it as a club - he cannot switch to other weapon under penalty of loosing +1 WS bonus.

(I know, that last one was weird Razz )

Equipment:
I would add duelling pistols and braziers to witch hunters armoury.
Warrior priest can choose only hammers or great hammers but (of course) gets acces to sigmarite warhammers, which he can wield in each hand. No missle weapons for warrior priest.

Zealots get witch catcher (basically it's man catcher but it sounds better IMHO Cool ):
this is a real-life man catcher. witch catcher looks the same Razz

Special rules:
Reach: Model with witch catcher may attack opponents up to 2" away
No damage: simple - no damage.
Two-handed: A model armed with a witch catcher may not use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close combat.
Entangled!: If a model with witch catcher hits, the target must immediately roll a D6. If the result is equal to, or lower than his Strength, he breaks free. If the result is higher, he may not move, shoot or cast spells in his next turn, and any model gets +2 to hit it in close combat. Entangled model may make a strenght test each turn in his recovery phase to brake free. If model using witch catcher is knocked down, stunned or put out of action, entangled model automatically breaks free. Model wielding witch catcher cannot move or attack if he succesfully entangles a target and is also +2 to hit in close combat and cannot strike back.
Price: no idea, rather expensive and with high rarity. Can be purchased when building a warband. too powerful?
(hope, I didn't stole this idea)

Special equipment:
Edict of absolution (witch hunters warband only) 30+3D6 gc Rare 8
This document bears a seal of Grand Theoginist himself. It grants absolution of all sins to any man, who will lend his strenght of arms to witch hunter's cause!

The maximum number of warriors allowed in your witch hunter warband is increased by +3. This additional 3 warriors must be either flagellants or zealots, or any mix of them. Note that this item repleaces halfling cookbook and cannot be combined with halfling scout's "cook" skill.

Oh and the Burn the witch! rule. I made it more complex.
Burn the Witch!: Witch Hunters hate all models who can cast spells. In addition Witch Hunter earns +1xp for each spellcaster he put OoA.
Considering burning hatred, that Witch Hunters feel for any magic users:
When any spellcaster, that was put OoA by witch hunters warband, finds himself captured (61 result on Heroe's serious injury chart ), he cannot be sold, ransomed or exchanged but will be burned immediatly with all his belongings!!!! (what would you expect?!) The leader of the Witch Hunter warband will gain +3(2?) XP.

hmm...I think that would be all.
so...what do you think? jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 14:20

What do you want to exchange for this special rules?
Do you give up some skill lists? Without it, it seems to much to strong.

I think your first skill is too strong. You can have Ld 9 and you can reroll each test. Make it like Cathayan silk, that you can reroll your first failed test. With a rabbits foot and a holy relic you have at least 3 rounds with a very good protection against running.

Why should a witch hunter be more feared by an orc than an average men? Outside of the empires folks they haven't such kind of renown. I would describe it more like the corresponding strength skill, that his look showed he should be feared (because of some skulls or something like that).

Your third skill sounds strong but good.

Your third skill is just waste. I wouldn't use a skill für +1 WS with a special weapon option... after some game you should have a good or better WS than your opponents, that you hit on 4+ or 3+. There are better combat skills...

Perhaps there is a good skill in Border Town Burning (warmonger from the battle monks) which could fit for your witchhunter:
You get W3 realy cheap and weak modells (peasants with forks and other tools)

Your rule Burn the witch is just broken. An instant kill of an enemy modell? If you consider that, you should make it, that every modell put OOA by undead is turned into a zombie and everyone put out by skaven is sold into slavery or becomes eaten.

The witchcatcher is a nice idea, but i would change it to a +1 bonus on attacks against an entangled enemy and remove the range of 2". It may fit the use, but its easier to handle. Perhaps even only one per warband.
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 16:20

I under the opinion that the Witch Hunters are mostly fine as is, the only thing I would change with them is the burn the witch rule so that it is better without being over-powdered. Here is an idea work off what you provided, Burn the witch: When a witch hunter warband takes a spellcaster out of action all Witch-Hunter Heros in the warband get +1 exp. And, replace the Burn the Witch rule that all the Witchhunters have with Righteous Fury (Which I think is a sisters special skill?) Of course what I just mentioned needs play tested.
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 16:22

Quote :
What do you want to exchange for this special rules?
Do you give up some skill lists? Without it, it seems to much to strong.

Nothing Very Happy I just did it in the name of fun. And fact, I forgot - this list replaces academics.

Quote :
I think your first skill is too strong. You can have Ld 9 and you can reroll each test. Make it like Cathayan silk, that you can reroll your first failed test. With a rabbits foot and a holy relic you have at least 3 rounds with a very good protection against running.

Actually I took it from Sisters of Sigmar special skills list. I guess it is less powerful on LD 8 sisters?

Quote :
Why should a witch hunter be more feared by an orc than an average men? Outside of the empires folks they haven't such kind of renown. I would describe it more like the corresponding strength skill, that his look showed he should be feared (because of some skulls or something like that).

Because he IS a Witch Hunter. Witch hunters are universaly feared. They are like gestapo or comissars... Besides Mordheim is in Empire - not in Lustria or Naggaroth. It's just "fearsome" from Strenght list with another background text. Yes, maybe this text applies to humans only, but on the other hand I don't now how avarage orc would be scared by human sporting skulls at his belt... I just thought, it fits WH. Smile

Third skill is also from Siters skill list.

Fourth was just for fun. I know it is wkinda weak but I couldn't resist. How about +1 to hit? too strong? scratch

I don't understand how is it broken. When you capture your opponent's vampire what would you do? Let him go? I honestly say - if I capture any enemy hero, that is/was troublesome to me I will sold it to slavery just because I can't kill it. And this rule is about SPELLCASTERS only. So only one model in entire warband. And most important it goes well with WH background.

Quote :
He may be ransomed at a price set by the captor or exchanged for one of their warband who is being held captive. Captives may be sold to slavers at a price of D6x5 gc. Undead may kill their captive and gain a new Zombie. The Possessed may sacrifice the prisoner. The leader of the warband will gain +1 Experience if they do so. Captives who are exchanged or ransomed retain all their weapons, armour and equipment; if captives are sold, killed or turned to Zombies, their weaponry, etc, is retained by their captors.
It is from rulebook. You know it. So by my rules, you'r not allowed to get ANY weapon or ANY money from selling or ransom. You gain NOTHING except for xp. Is that broken? And we are speaking of Witch Hunters! I don't think they would be merciful to a wizard they just captured...
After deeper thought: 2xp are better than 3xp.

About witch catcher - I gave it 2" range cause user cannot attack and is almost auto hit. 2' range is a kind of protection. As you can see, I just used rules for net, from equipment section and tried redone them for close combat use. It's more difficult than I thought... scratch
Any ideas?

I repeat: I won't use any "warband homerules" cause my oponent says that "all warbands are balanced" - they are just to express how I think, witch hunters background, should affect their rules.
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 16:39

sorry, i missed the part of the 61. i thought every spellcaster who is OOA would get burned...
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 21:02

From a just-for-fun perspective, I think most of these ideas are fine with some tweaking here or there. But they do all benefit the WHs, so unless you do something to balance these new ideas (i.e. making it harder to recruit new warriors since WHs are widely loathed and feared; or make them have to pay higher prices for gear, or whatever), then these changes won't work well in competitive play.

In regard to Iron Resolve, I agree with Saranor that you need to adjust it. Statistically, on a 2d6 roll there is a significant difference between LD 8 (SoS Matricarch) and LD 9 (WH Captain).

Adding dueling pistols... I would say only if you remove crossbow pistols. Note that your captains and champions ("witch hunters") have access to shooting skills, so they all have access to dueling pistols already, if they use a skill slot.

The witch catcher: you do need to specify that a zealot can only attack someone with a WC if he declared a charge against that person at the beginning of the movement phase (otherwise, with the rules as written he can take OOA any model stunned by his buddies if the unfortunate fellow is within 2" of him).

I would not give the Siggie pries a Siggie warhammer. It might make some sense, background-wise (him being a Siggie priest), but where the SoS are part of an organized and affluent nunnery, the WH Siggie priest is roaming the counrtyside with a bunch of psychos. The problem with letting him take the Siggie hammer is that access to special (and very nice) weapons is the main advantage that the SofS have to counter-balance their weaknesses (particularly horrible access to shooting weapons). As an alternative, perhaps say that if he has the skill that lets him use any melee weapons, he has a chance of searching for and finding a Siggie hammer (normally people with that skill can only find a Siggie hammer if they take it off a prisoner). Make the hammer rare 10, perhaps, for the priest.

With captured enemy spell casters - there is no need for a special rule. Burn 'em and take their stuff. End of story.

Saranor: "Why should a witch hunter be more feared by an orc than an average men? "

catachanfrog: "Because he IS a Witch Hunter. Witch hunters are universaly feared. They are like gestapo or comissars... "

Balance-wise, I don't have a problem with this skill. As you note, it is one of the Strength skills, you are just making it available to the three champions, who don't have access to the Strength skills. Not a big thing. But I can't resist responding to your response to Saranor. First, he is pointing out that non-humans probably don't hold WH (if they know much about them at all) to be any more of a threat than other armed and trained humans. Face it: the basic Orc attitude towards hummies it that "them's good eatin'". Also, to use your analogy of the Nazis or commissars - normal people certainly tended to be afraid of them, but not particularly armed and trained soldiers. So, applied to the Empire, civilians likely fear WHs, but the hardened mercs crawling around the ruins of Mordheim, facing skaven, mutants, zombies etc. pretty much every time they go to work? I don't think so!
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 22:08

Iron Resolve - I kind of agree that it's a little strong. Even if you keep it, make sure you add "accepting the second result", otherwise, you can roll and roll all you like. (When in doubt, be redundant.)

Or as an alternative, what if it combo-ed with another item? Maybe, "A Witch Hunter Captain with a Holy Relic may ignore the first TWO Ld tests he must take, instead of the first only." Or maybe, he ignores each test on a roll of 4+ - the first time he rolls a 1-3 on a "Faith" test, he loses the ability until the end of the game.


Fearsome Reputation - all the members of a WH warband have access to Strength skills, which has the same ability. No need.

Pistol skill - fun, no needed, really. To me, WHs seem more about Crossbow Pistols than normal pistols. Or maybe add a Brazier skill? A lot more fluff-based.

Righteous Fury - See no problem with this.

Man-catcher - A good start. Personally, I'd streamline it some:
Range; HTH - get rid of the reach- since the erratas, all weapons are missiles, or strike in hth.
Strength: As user
Two Handed
Awkward: A man catcher user suffers -1 to hit opponents.
Hooking: A model successfully hit with a Man-catcher is Hooked. The attacker can only attack that model, and may not attack any others until that model is taken out of action or the catcher wielder is knocked down or stunned. The continued attacks against the Hooked model represents not further "strikes", but rather that catcher wrestling the hooked opponent to the ground.
Hooked: A model that is currently Hooked cannot leave for any reason- he cannot flee, crawl away, or use any skill or spell that would let him go. While hooked, he suffers -1 to hit on any attack rolls, to a minimum of 1, and all spells he would cast count as having Difficulty +2. Also, any other enemies attacking a hooked model gets +1 to hit.
Breaking free: If the catcher wielder leaves combat (ex. flees), is knocked down, stunned, or taken out of action, the attacked model is no longer hooked.
Caught: If a hero that is currently hooked is taken out of action, do not roll for Injury- his result is automatically -"61 Captured." Henchmen models roll for injury as normal.


Thus, there is no break out tests. The greatest virtues are:
Can't run away (I've had a Liche run out of combat, turn around, and blast 2 guys with arrows. OUch).
Have trouble casting spells (seems appropriate)
Potentially snagging enemy heroes (if doing this, though, drop the "burn the witches" rule, otherwise it will be too cruel. If you want to torch them, that's your call, but it's bad for diplomacy amongst players.)

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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sat 21 Jan 2012 - 23:18

StyrofoamKing: "Fearsome Reputation - all the members of a WH warband have access to Strength skills, which has the same ability. No need."

My pdf of the rulebook indicates that WHs (the champions) do not have access to Strength skills - only the captain and the priest. Is that table incorrect?
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 4:38

Quote :
In regard to Iron Resolve, I agree with Saranor that you need to adjust it. Statistically, on a 2d6 roll there is a significant difference between LD 8 (SoS Matricarch) and LD 9 (WH Captain).
@ mweaver Hmm... In my rulebook WHCaptain is LD8. Is there something I'm missing? scratch Generally speaking this skill is in 3 warband lists: sisters, orcs and beastmen. Beastmen are LD7 but orcs and sisters "captains" are LD8. Why would it be broken on LD8 WH? As StyrofoamKIng pointed out, of course you can't reroll reroll. And as I said before this skill is literally "copy-paste" from sisters Very Happy
Quote :
I would not give the Siggie pries a Siggie warhammer. It might make some sense, background-wise (him being a Siggie priest), but where the SoS are part of an organized and affluent nunnery, the WH Siggie priest is roaming the counrtyside with a bunch of psychos.
I disagree. Sister's order is relatively new, while warrior priests were established, when cult of sigmar became official imperial religion. I don't think, that sisters would get any better eq or weapons then a warrior priest. But on the other hand (your comment made gears in my head turn), sisters fight "on their own ground" with their monastery behind their backs... So yes, let's say he can use sighammers but he requires a skill Very Happy
Quote :
Also, to use your analogy of the Nazis or commissars - normal people certainly tended to be afraid of them, but not particularly armed and trained soldiers. So, applied to the Empire, civilians likely fear WHs, but the hardened mercs crawling around the ruins of Mordheim, facing skaven, mutants, zombies etc. pretty much every time they go to work? I don't think so!
Well, russian soldiers (and Imperial Guard Very Happy ), feared comissars more than an enemy... Of course, witch hunters and let's say merceneries are on differnt sides of the conflict, but neverthless they know that falling into witch hunter's hands means painfull death cause "there's no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt". Smile and they just opposed holy templars of Sigmar...
Description in "fearsome" doesn't make sens either - I don't think that orcs, beastmen or any chaos, or even skaven could run away because someone just looks mean. It's just a background text.

@ StyrofoamKing - I like your changes. Most of all, they are not as complicated as my rules thumbsup
But I would also add that a "hooked" model cannot shoot. I guess that witch catcher wielder doesn't benefit from +1 to hit? I made a rule that witch catcher model is hit easier to represent that he is entirely focused on using man catcher. That's why I also made reach.
Quote :
Potentially snagging enemy heroes (if doing this, though, drop the "burn the witches" rule, otherwise it will be too cruel. If you want to torch them, that's your call, but it's bad for diplomacy amongst players.)
But this rule is only about spellcasters and witch hunters hate them. I find it strange, that nobody shares my opinion about that. Burning witches is the sens of their existence and really, I'm wondering why captured witch/wizard should not be burned...because of the rules? Smile
This rule was made according to wh background and IMHO it mirrors eventuality of capturing magic users perfectly. After all possessed can sacrifice captured heroes and nobody cries about that. I'm also thinking that xenophobic, racist witch hunters wouldn't allow to live any captured non human, suhc as orc, beastman or skaven...
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 6:08

Maybe, just maybe, the Sisters of Sigmar get Sigmarite Warhammers because they are the ones really blessed by Sigmar? Wink

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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 6:34

you left out some very critical information, namely whom are they going to play against? orcs and dwarfs are stronger than middenheimers and undead.

also, you wont find much support for modding the rules in this forum, try here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?97-Mordheim-Discussion
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 6:43

shotguncoffee wrote:

also, you wont find much support for modding the rules in this forum, try here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?97-Mordheim-Discussion

I think that's a tad disingenuous, from what I've read and experienced here myself you get well-thought out responses that take both fluff and balance into account. They tend to be delivered in a respectful manner to, from my own foray into rules tweaking on this forum.

No one here has shot catachanfrog down completely, it seems people are just trying to get him to think about balancing his ideas and concepts and to see the wider picture and potential impact of any changes he is proposing to use in his gaming.

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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 8:07

I knew that my changes proposal, was destined to be critisised but that's normal thing and I'm happy with that. Very Happy
On the other hand, I'm amazed by opinion, that giving an option of rerolling rout for witch hunters is broken. As I mentioned before, 3 warbands have it. Two of them have leaders with LD8. And most of all, they are more numerous than witch hunters, who are the only official warband that is limited to 12 (I know - dwarves...). I think that this ability, would be a logiccal bonus for a warband that will rout earlier. Remember Beastmen - max 15, Sister of Sigmar - max 15, Orcs - max 20, WH - max 12...

I feel that witch hunters warband, needs mending - I noticed, that only viable tactical option in this forum (no offence), is a 4crosbow-wyrdstone hunter list. I didn't get an answer about other possibilities.
How I see witch huters - excellent background and idea, screwd by the rules. Explanation, that they are only 12 because they move in small groups is ridiculous. They have no elite: a) equipment b) stats and their choice of henchmen looks tlike they were made for horde warband not least numerous one. They have only two reasonable choices of warhounds and flagellants (who cost fortune).
To the point: my changes, although imperfect, were a proposition for more cc oriented WH. If somone says, that WH heroes are meant to be shooting heroes, I ask: so why they have only one long range weapon choice? Someone answers: because crossbows fit to their background. And I think it's not an answera at all... Biggest pain: why they are not as numerous as other warbands, even when in fluff, they are described as "charismatic rabble rousers" that control CROWDS of angry people?And so on, and so on...
That's just my point of view - we discussed it later. Hope, I didn't offend anybody. I really appreciate all of your comments. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 8:18

catachanfrog wrote:
Quote :
In regard to Iron Resolve, I agree with Saranor that you need to adjust it. Statistically, on a 2d6 roll there is a significant difference between LD 8 (SoS Matricarch) and LD 9 (WH Captain).
@ mweaver Hmm... In my rulebook WHCaptain is LD8. Is there something I'm missing? scratch Generally speaking this skill is in 3 warband lists: sisters, orcs and beastmen. Beastmen are LD7 but orcs and sisters "captains" are LD8. Why would it be broken on LD8 WH? As StyrofoamKIng pointed out, of course you can't reroll reroll. And as I said before this skill is literally "copy-paste" from sisters Very Happy

Oh. Well, in that case, it's probably fine. My bad. (I still think making him have a Holy Relic to use it would be fun.)

Quote :
Quote :
I would not give the Siggie pries a Siggie warhammer. It might make some sense, background-wise (him being a Siggie priest), but where the SoS are part of an organized and affluent nunnery, the WH Siggie priest is roaming the counrtyside with a bunch of psychos.
I disagree. Sister's order is relatively new, while warrior priests were established, when cult of sigmar became official imperial religion. I don't think, that sisters would get any better eq or weapons then a warrior priest. But on the other hand (your comment made gears in my head turn), sisters fight "on their own ground" with their monastery behind their backs... So yes, let's say he can use sighammers but he requires a skill Very Happy

Make the skill for the Priest only... that way, at most only ONE model can have them, while the hunters stay relatively "impure".

Quote :
Quote :
Also, to use your analogy of the Nazis or commissars - normal people certainly tended to be afraid of them, but not particularly armed and trained soldiers. So, applied to the Empire, civilians likely fear WHs, but the hardened mercs crawling around the ruins of Mordheim, facing skaven, mutants, zombies etc. pretty much every time they go to work? I don't think so!
Well, russian soldiers (and Imperial Guard Very Happy ), feared comissars more than an enemy... Of course, witch hunters and let's say merceneries are on differnt sides of the conflict, but neverthless they know that falling into witch hunter's hands means painfull death cause "there's no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt". Smile and they just opposed holy templars of Sigmar...
Description in "fearsome" doesn't make sens either - I don't think that orcs, beastmen or any chaos, or even skaven could run away because someone just looks mean. It's just a background text.

I thought they had strength skills, which I had wrong. Go ahead and leave this in.

Quote :
@ StyrofoamKing - I like your changes. Most of all, they are not as complicated as my rules thumbsup
But I would also add that a "hooked" model cannot shoot. I guess that witch catcher wielder doesn't benefit from +1 to hit? I made a rule that witch catcher model is hit easier to represent that he is entirely focused on using man catcher. That's why I also made reach.

Well, the simple version on requires the catcher to hit ONCE- then the model's autohooked. That's why a -1 to hit the model is important- because once they due, it's a huge difference. To the WIELDER, the weapon sucks. Its goal is to help OTHERS, and to pin down and debuff the target, while other models can hit him easier.

Reach - the old whips had reach - it just got confusing and ugly. I recommend you drop it.

I don't think you need the cannot shoot- if they're in hth combat and literally stuck in it, they can't shoot anyway. Worse still, SOMEONE will misinterpret it as "cannot shoot a shoot in your hth", which doesn't make sense. Let it drop.

Quote :
Quote :
Potentially snagging enemy heroes (if doing this, though, drop the "burn the witches" rule, otherwise it will be too cruel. If you want to torch them, that's your call, but it's bad for diplomacy amongst players.)
But this rule is only about spellcasters and witch hunters hate them. I find it strange, that nobody shares my opinion about that. Burning witches is the sens of their existence and really, I'm wondering why captured witch/wizard should not be burned...because of the rules? Smile
This rule was made according to wh background and IMHO it mirrors eventuality of capturing magic users perfectly. After all possessed can sacrifice captured heroes and nobody cries about that. I'm also thinking that xenophobic, racist witch hunters wouldn't allow to live any captured non human, suhc as orc, beastman or skaven...

I recommend you drop IF you use the man-catcher's "any hero taken ooa is Captured" rule. Why? Because one or the other is fine, but the two of them together equal- "take a hooked spellcaster out of action, he's automatically dead."

No player likes having a model auto-killed. It comes across as mean and overpowered.

If a player with Man-Catchers wants to play "in-character" and kill every witch he finds, that's his choice. But to use a capture item and force the player to have no mercy is just too mean, I think.

If you don't use the catcher item or drop the "auto-capture" rule, then I recommend you make it +2 ex for killing a witch- or maybe 1 exp for every full 10exp the witch had (thus, 23 would be 2). I like the "burn the items" rule, it has a lot of flavor.
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 10:40

"I feel that witch hunters warband, needs mending - I noticed, that only viable tactical option in this forum (no offence), is a 4crosbow-wyrdstone hunter list. I didn't get an answer about other possibilities. How I see witch huters - excellent background and idea, screwd by the rules. "

As noted before, they are not "screwed by the rules" - you just want them to play a bit differently than they were intended to play... You want melee-specialized heroes. I understand your desire to build a warband that fits your vision of how WH should work. The fact that the official WH band does not conform with your preferences doesn't mean they are badly designed, unbalanced, etc. etc.

A lot of the problems originally with the Siggie whips and the "reach" rule was that the original description did not make it clear that you still had to declare a charge at the beginning of your turn to attack someone with them. Consequently, someone with a whip could move behind a line of friendly and take out enemy models the friendlies knocked down or stunned during the round. After a FAQ pointed out you had to declare a charge on someone before you could whip them, the whips became less of a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 13:19

I dont think anyone can sincerely claim that WH were designed to be like they are. their fluff, their equipment lists, everything contradicts that they are designed to be the money making powerhouse that hey are. its more a case of players finding a way to work with the list as written; bad design may still work out in the real world, even though the designers were smoking crack
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 14:25

Quote :
As noted before, they are not "screwed by the rules" - you just want them to play a bit differently than they were intended to play... You want melee-specialized heroes. I understand your desire to build a warband that fits your vision of how WH should work. The fact that the official WH band does not conform with your preferences doesn't mean they are badly designed, unbalanced, etc. etc.

I again agree with shotguncofee.
Their long range shooting weapon is a crossbow. Only crossbow. I don't think it's a hint given by rules makers that they should be played as a shooters. They also have pistols and crossbow pistols. As far as I know, no one use pistols as "missle weapon" and crossbow pistols, although very nice, are way too expensive to use them in numbers - especially, when wrband is created. The crossbow-money-making spam (as shotguncoffe said) was made by players who realised, that its the only way to play wh effective.I'm little confused about that, cause their melee weapon list, even when less impresive than a mercenary one, is far greater then their shooting weapon list. Crossbows in my opinion, limits heroes horribly - good strenght and range, sure, but lack of ability to move and shoot makes them effective (BS3....), only on turn they don't move. Considering terrain and line of sight, and fact that enemies are not standing in place but are moving (often in cover) makes crossbows almost usless for me. My opponents are not stupid and when I find a good vantage point, they change routs to avoid my missles...
Warbands in the rulebook (not mentioning others), even when accepted as official, can be broken. These rules were not given by a god, but made by gw...
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 15:54

Acidently I pressed that thanks button - what does it mean Shocked ?
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Sun 22 Jan 2012 - 17:44

catachanfrog wrote:
Acidently I pressed that thanks button - what does it mean Shocked ?
I think that if this was a Question thread then your Thanks would represent that you received the Answer to your original Question. This would allow mods to lock the thread. However, since this thread is just a alternate rules thread then it really means nothing so don't worry. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Mon 23 Jan 2012 - 12:43

catachanfrog wrote:

Crossbows in my opinion, limits heroes horribly - good strenght and range, sure, but lack of ability to move and shoot makes them effective (BS3....), only on turn they don't move. Considering terrain and line of sight, and fact that enemies are not standing in place but are moving (often in cover) makes crossbows almost usless for me. My opponents are not stupid and when I find a good vantage point, they change routs to avoid my missles...
Warbands in the rulebook (not mentioning others), even when accepted as official, can be broken. These rules were not given by a god, but made by gw...

And what other missle weapon would you prefer? Longbows? They are S3 weapons, reasonably priced, though I get a feeling they would not satisfy you either. Reason: with longbows you can keep your heroes on the move, but you'll get penalties for that, and as you have noticed terrain will provide opposing warbands with lots of cover. As a result WH with longbows will very often hit only on a roll of 6 (when they are in range - I guess it would be somewhere after WH second/third movement phase). Shooting on the run could also result in being restricted by "closest target" rule - either you look for a good shooting position (as with crossbows) or run for the melee with rest of the warband ( and this often occurs on ground level). Not to mention, closest target in our campaign would very probably be some squig or gobbo with huge sign " born to die" on his forehead Smile , covering the advance of slightly less expendable orcs. Lastly S3 will work nice against skaven, squigs and gobbos, but against T4 orcs (if you manage to hit them at all)? Besides, WH with bows are not very fluffy.

In my opinion there are only two reasonable weapons for such an advancing warband ( and one of them you already have on your list). Crossbow pistols and dueling pistols. Good enough range, S4 and pricy - both of them. Crossbow pistols only WH and dark elves have, from what I recall, and dueling pistols are one of mercenaries greatest boons (exclusive one,too). Want to have both of them? I call that greedy Very Happy I guess duelling pistolls would be more effective choice, but they are for mercs. Want them bad? Give your hero appropriate skill. Tired of move or fire with crossbows? Get nimble. Easy.

Any other weapon choice preferred? Shoot Twisted Evil

Recenty we were talking about WH lack of elite equipment. From what I see only warbands havig access to "elite" equipement are skaven and sisters. Mercenaries? They have duelling pistols, you have crossbow one. They have wider selection of bows and a blunderbuss - its their advantage as a jack of all trades warband. Armors? not every warband can have the heavy ones - and WH can. Oh, forcing me to take the gronmill artifact armor should I ever find it is... discourteous... for a lack of a better (and still civil) word. I can't wear it, can't sell it - I don't like it (just like forcing a flagellant to take Bs).

catachanfrog wrote:

Warbands in the rulebook (not mentioning others), even when accepted as official, can be broken. These rules were not given by a god, but made by gw...
Then make a fanmade WH Smile but after the campaign, if you please. I'm rather a conservatist I've seen fanmade rules and warbands who went simply too far into "awesomeness". Too much change can make WH more broken than (and if, because I don't share that point of view) they were before, only the other way Smile


Yesterday my orcs were rolled over by WH, and not a single crossbow on them. Really, I lost bad Very Happy. They had a n ogre bodyguard, but he didnt do much damage - WH defeated me suffering no loses . Not thanks to their superior strategy - battle was fought on my terms, and ogre had to jump out of the building just to get to me in time (he even received a wound doing so). Maybe you should wait for our campaign and see how it goes, instead of reading rules over and over again ,comparing WH to other warbands?
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PostSubject: Re: WItch hunters alternative rules   Tue 24 Jan 2012 - 0:44

Of curiosity, has noone else seen them played as close-range shooters like Marienburg? In fact, they are even *better* at it than Marienburgers because they have crossbow-pistols as a starting weapon.

If you play WH like movie Van-Helsings with pistoleer, dual crossbow pistols, and eagle-eye for damage, with sprint and wardogs for mobility and meatshields, and strike to injure and step aside for when things get close you can do pretty darn well indeed.

They don't *just* get crossbows for range, they also get crossbow pistols - the pistol you can shoot twice in the shooting phase or charge in and shoot twice in the melee phase and still get all your attacks! They get one of the best long-range shooting weapons and possibly *the* best pistol.

While the *can* be used as a stand-back-and-shoot warband I have most often seen them do better as a shoot-them-in-the-face-and-then-punch-them warband. They are strong in melee, but not in the unsubtle crushing way that beastmen or Middenheim are, nor are they a stand back and shoot like dwarfs or Riekland tend to be. You have to use their strong melee *and* their strong shooting to best effect to take full advantage of both their skill sets and their

Personally, I suspect that this *is* the way they were intended to be played because when we experimented with the Witch-hunters being allowed to have 15 models (6 heroes, 5 wardogs, 5 flaggies*) the extra meat-shields made them a diabolical close-range hail of stake-through-the-heart doom. Being able to have *all* the M6 meatshields *and* all the T4 meatshields was just a bit hard.

If you would prefer a more melee oriented warband I wouldn't have any problem playing against you if you simply removed Shooting, swapped Academic for Strength, and went up to 15. I don't think that would be too strong or too weak, but without playtesting I couldn't say for sure, but on paper it looks close enough for me that I would let you use it in any campaign I was running.

Although Possessed *can* sacrifice captured heroes in my experience they mostly don't. Possibly it would be fine if you are playing in a story campaign where everyone cares more about the story than their attachment to their own heroes, but in any campaign I have been in doing that sort of thing is a real good way to get yourself vendettas against you.

*Halfling influence goes without saying.
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