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Saranor
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 5:24

RationalLemming wrote:
SerialMoM wrote:
Mordheim is not a really good game to decide who is the best tactican on the board, i think it is also not good as a competitive tournament game. But it is perfect as beer and pretzel game with friends. And you will get some really good stories to tell.
Totally agree. I like winning but I like playing even more.

we need an "Agree" button thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 5:49

Quote :
but they have monster with stupitity
But do orcs HAVE to take a troll? Well, if you're trying to show how weak troll is I have to disagree - it's the only henchmen/warrior in Mordheim that has a rule which says that he CANNOT DIE. No matter what. I find it particulary stupid when considering wounds caused by fire. Trolls can't regenerate them, but after the battle, when killed by fire, he's as good as new?strange... Besides trolls have regeneration (mentioned above) and can make 1 attack that autohits. Nobody will tell me that troll is underpowered. Stupidity with warboss's ld isn't that dangerous. Of course someone may say that there's an upkeep to pay but you are paying 15 gc for something that will last forever. That "regeneration" rule really,really sucks IMHO.

And at last - in my opinion, trolls, minotaurs, ogres, rat ogres should count as 4-5 models when counting models for exploration or warband building purposes.

I just think that troll's ruleset, is a little bit fanmade.


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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 6:05

Even though it says 'does not die' because of the upkeep you are effectively repurchasing him roughly every 13-14 games. At the start of a campaign this a bit much, but at the end of the campaign this is a pretty good deal.

Personally I never bother with the troll because I don't like the models, but I have fought against them and as far as big guys go I think they are like the others. A pain to deal with at the start but to a leveled up warrior they are not much of a problem. Quickshot and Fire arrows/bolts, torches, brasier staffs, fire bombs, etc. can take them down pretty reliably. The firebombs (and the brasier staffs, if you can get them) work on other targets too.

I fear a tooled up Posessed or levelled up ogre more than I fear a troll.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 6:23

Quote :
i sincerely do not think that witch hunters are on the same power level with O&C

20 models, lots of S4 and T4, monster, special skills, 15gc henchmen, 25gc, T4 henchmen

yes, WH have pistols but these are expensive and we all know that quantity > quality in mordheim

I agree with every word but it seems that we are alone. Everybody's telling me that witch hunters are soooo strong and balanced that I'm starting to believe it... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Orcs wound everyting I have on 4+/3+ - Flagelants are exception but I can't take more than 2 without weakening rest of my warriors. I wound them on 5+ unless I take ONE ATTACK flagellants or warhounds. To wound Orcs on 4+ I need pistols (for one round only) , and buing a lot of pistols means less money on warriors. Sure, there are other warbands with T4 - dwarves and beastmen but orcs are much, much cheaper.
Quote :
And they start with only four heroes, and all those cheap gobbos cannot be promoted to heroes. On average, WH should make a lot more money early in the campaign and will have a lot more equipment.
Poor Orcs... In fact Beastmen(!), Possessed(!), and Dwarves also start with 4 heroes. I think it's a fourth time when I'm telling, that I don't want to make wyrdostone-hunting warband. And if that's only REASONABLE way of progressing my heroes it means that's something's wrong with witch hunters. Giving wyrdhunter also makes my heroes less effective on the battlefield - and it should not be like this. That "I can loose a battle but hey, I get more money on exploration" approach is something I really don't like. I'm under impression, that giving academic skills for wh was an attemp to mirror their hm... investigating skills, knowledge (you now waht I mean), but for me it shows nothing. Academic list should go to marienburgers (which would be perfect - they are the best monemakers after all), not wh who should get special skills list.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 6:46

Lord 0 wrote:
Even though it says 'does not die' because of the upkeep you are effectively repurchasing him roughly every 13-14 games. At the start of a campaign this a bit much, but at the end of the campaign this is a pretty good deal.

Personally I never bother with the troll because I don't like the models, but I have fought against them and as far as big guys go I think they are like the others. A pain to deal with at the start but to a leveled up warrior they are not much of a problem. Quickshot and Fire arrows/bolts, torches, brasier staffs, fire bombs, etc. can take them down pretty reliably. The firebombs (and the brasier staffs, if you can get them) work on other targets too.

I fear a tooled up Posessed or levelled up ogre more than I fear a troll.

Upkeep 15 is NOTHING, when you pay for something that is in fact immortal. I find it really unjust tha ther is something in Mordheim that cannot be killed...
Other warband's can hire mercenaries - they must be paid like a troll but unlike him they can die. The problem is not with hitting, or wounding a troll, but with his 4+ save that cannot be modified. To negate this save I have to buy specalised equipment (both fire bomb and brazier are expensive, brazier also requires a skill). Fire arrows would be fine (alas, for one battle only) but they are costy. Fighting with torch at basic strenght with -1 modifier doesn't sound good. A question: where are the "rules" for fire bolts? Or fire bolts=fire arrows because it's not specified what weapon can fire them?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 6:58

how about another fix, if you don't like his number:

introduce another income column for 19+ modells, that way he get around 15-20 gold less than you if he bolster up his numbers to twenty. Every loss will be crucial for him, because of his small income and perhaps the fee for his troll.

An Orc warband with troll and 20 modells had without the extracolumn around 25 gold less every game than a witchhunter with only 12 members. Mostly you get around 3-4 wyrdstones, that are 50 gold crowns for 16+ members warband. Subtract 15 for the troll you are left with 35 gold.
An Witchhunter warband with 12 modells get 65 gold without including academic skills, and you tell me, you have less money than your orc player?

But you should consider to play another warband, which fit better your playing style.
It is the same, if i like Reikland from the fluff but dislike shooting and drop all marksmen and complain at the weakness of them, i would have many people arguing against me, too.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 7:04

The warbands are all ballanced, but not all warbands are good at all ways forward. If you want to take a shooty warband, don't pick Posessed. If you want a sniper warband, don't take sisters. If you want a warband that has its main strength as melee then, really, Witch Hunters aren't a prime candidate.

If you are playing competatively then Witch Hunters get 1 melee hero - the priest (the leader has to take too many leadership skills to really be a combat power-house). They are good at shooting and their combat skills mean they won't go down easy if they get into melee and can support the melee hero if they have to.

You don't have to take the money skills if you don't want to, but, like the Marienburgers, you are not a melee warband. In fact, also like the Marienburgers, your heroes get combat, strength, and speed so build your warband like that also. Lots of long range and close range. Get your Zealot hero and train him into a sniper with Shooting and Speed. He will only be as good as a Youngblood hero, but it doesn't take that long to get BS4 and a few shooting skills and then he will be just as good as any other shooting hero and ranged combat will keep him safe from fickle melee. Crossbows and crossbow pistols for everyone. Dual crossbow pistols to the face is better than any spear.

Unlike the Marienburgers you have your priest to spec up as a melee specialist to give the melee support where needed, so make your priest as hard in melee as you can.

As for flaggies, screw 'em. Your wardogs make *much* better meatshields to start out with for the simple reason that they are cheap. As your zealots die replace them with flaggies for your second wall of meat (you did get your zealot hero right?). Don't bother with arming your flaggelants unless you find a weapon for them. A t4 dagger is just as good as a t4 flail at soaking hits.

Some don't like wardogs because they don't gain xp. I don't know what hippie Society For The Protection of Henchmen houserules they have, but in my circle we treat our henchmen rough. The turnover of henchmen means that it really doesn't matter if they earn xp or not, they are going to die before it matters that much. Yes, granted, once in a blue moon you will get a hencman that is +S, +A, but guess how much of a priority target *that* makes him/them?

Just by-the-by, vs orcs remember that your leader has access to academic skills. Orcs do not. Feel free to Tactician and Hunch to your heart's content safe in the knowledge that he can't do it back.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 7:05

"...that I don't want to make wyrdostone-hunting warband. And if that's only REASONABLE way of progressing my heroes it means that's something's wrong with witch hunters. "

All warbands need heroes to find wyrdstone to sell to hire recruits and buy kit. All warbands need heroes because they earn experience and gain improvements more swiftly. The hunting of wyrdstone is the heart of the campaign system. Thus, warbands that start with only four heroes start at a significant disadvantage, independent of whether they, or their opponents, want to grab skills to improve wyrdstone hunts. The warbands that start with four heroes have other things that balance this disadvantage - in the case of the orcs, higher-than-average T on the orcs themselves and a high max number of warriors.

You may not see it, but starting with five heroes (none of them the weak younglbloods) is a pretty serious boost for your warband (however, if you are unlucky in early fights and lots of your heroes go OOA, you will not particularly benefit from this advantage).


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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 7:27

If you want a more melee-heavy WItch-hunter warband, use the Middenheimer warband and give them a Warrior Priest of Sigmar as a hired sword (Town Cryer #28 has the WP of S). Use witch-huntery models, give them a witch-huntery background story, and wade in, swords and axes a'swinging.

The root problem, as Lord O notes, is that your vision of how you want WH to play does not fit well with how they were designed to play. They are not an under-powered warband... you just don't want to play them in a way that takes advantages of their strengths.

The human mercenary bands were designed to be the most generic/flexible. The others are all specialized in some ways. If you don't like the strengths of one of those specialized warbands, don't play it. We had a similar thread a month or so back where a couple of people were arguing that the Sisters of Sigmar were badly designed because they had so few choices. Same thing. If warrior nuns with whips, big-honking hammers and slings bores you, then don't play the Sisters. Me, I like 'em, and they are my wife's favorite warband by far.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 7:37

Lord O: "I don't know what hippie Society For The Protection of Henchmen houserules they have, but in my circle we treat our henchmen rough. The turnover of henchmen means that it really doesn't matter if they earn xp or not, they are going to die before it matters that much. "

But, but, they are people too! They have names, they have families, they have personalities! I love my henchmen. Every one has a hero's baton in his backpack, right next to his union card.

I am primarily a role-player, and that colors my approach to Mordheim. If I am playing Undead, or Skaven, or a band of that ilk, I will sacrifice henchmen with cheerful abandon. But more often I am playing human mercenaries, SIsters, dwarves, etc., and they don't see anybody as sword fodder. They have a job to do and they are going to do it, but they want everyone to make it home for the division of the spoils.

In my brother Jim's current campaign (See the "Vampire Hunters" threads in the Battle Reports section) he is planning on making a graveyard with headstones for all of the fallen warriors, hero or henchman or hired sword. I think that is a pretty fun idea.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 7:43

@ mweaver - I was refering to a "wyrdstone hunter" ability...
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 15:47

mweaver wrote:
Every [henchman] has a hero's baton in his backpack, right next to his union card.
I *knew* it! Gorram hippie commie henchmen! Razz. I think we are kind of in between there. Sacrificing your henchmen with abandon will see you run out of money in the long run, but allowing your heroes to be exposed instead of your henchmen will see a more significant loss.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 13:06

I don't think Witch Hunters are per say underpowered, I play them quite often and do quite well. My play group house ruled Witch Hunters (not the captain) to start with 4 experience, as the Burn the Witch! rule is rarely applicable, and it allowed them access to a few quick advances to diversify their profiles.

This said, I do feel some of the perceived "weakness" of Witch Hunters (which several players in my first mordheim group commented on) is that certain bands (Chiefly skaven and Orcs and Goblins) are a bit on the powerful side. We raised the point cost on the Assassin Adept (no way should he cost as much as a Mercenary Captain), and reduced the usefulness of slings (better than a short bow......no...) and made it so Orcs and Goblins still could take 20 models, but at least 5 of them had to be goblins/squigs, otherwise they had to stop at 15.

However, I do feel a special skill table or something along those lines would be cool in making the Witch Hunters a bit more unique.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 14:51

Oh!Would you kindly share your experience with witch hunters vs orcs? Very Happy As you know, they are one of two warbands I will be set against and expect them to be hardest than skaven (less experienced player).
I said it again: it is unfair and retarded that my warband's max size is almost half of skaven and orcs. I agree with you on all points about changes you make. Especially with assassin adept (and black skaven) who is one of most unbalanced heroes (cost and profile) in "legal" mordheim.
We play this campaign without any changes (we had too much arguing) in warbands and I'm still thinking about switching to averland/ reikland for this campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 17:50

Sure Catachanfrog! I found what works well against Orcs as Witch Hunters are crossbows and pistol from an item prospective, as they make wounding orcs a lot easier. Also as Orcs don't have access to heavy armor these items will blow trough any armor they do have. I found the best tactic is to make them come to you, preferably do a bit of climbing first (cluster your models up high), as this gives you free targeting and your average orc is only Initiative 2 (though I think their heroes are 3), this way you can fire your pistols down on top of their heads as they try to climb up, and if one does manage to get up you will 1) Outnumber them 2) Have pistols to help in hand to hand. Orcs also tend not to be too hot at range, sure their orcs can buy bows and crossbows, but this doesn't allow them to really take advantage of melee, which tends to be their strong suit. I have really only seen short bows in Orc bands on a regular basis (on the goblins), so you will generally out range them and be able to pick off a few before they can close the distance.

While T4 is an advantage as well, if an orc does get wounded from a strength 3 attack, there is a 50% it will be a critical, so when your weaker attacks do strike home, they will hurt a lot more.

Intercepting works well against Orcs too, I often set a few zealots with spears at the front of my formation in case some orc heroes try to charge by. This holds them at bay relatively well, because as long as you set up your counter charges well, you can jam a flail-wielding flagellant and a few warhounds down his their throats (and bring a witch hunter to finish him off in case he gets knocked down or stunned for the experience).

Not sure how your opponent will play his orcs, but that has worked really well for me.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 20:00

I keep seeing references to Flagellants using a dagger. I think this is wrong, the "first free" dagger is not on their hand-to-hand combat list. Am I missing something or is this a house rule change to the original rules?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 1 Feb 2012 - 22:18

Crimson Udder wrote:
I keep seeing references to Flagellants using a dagger. I think this is wrong, the "first free" dagger is not on their hand-to-hand combat list. Am I missing something or is this a house rule change to the original rules?

You raise a good point. I guess that generally it accepted that all warriors that have weapons come with a free starting dagger unless stated otherwise that cannot be sold or given away (but can be stolen). This may be incorrect as you have pointed out (e.g. the lack of dagger in the Flagellant equipment list may be interpretted as 'stated otherwise') but I guess this assumption comes from different parts of the core rulebook. Below are two quotes taken out of the core rulebook.

In the "Starting a warband" section of the core rulebook (second page of second rulebook PDF).
Quote :
weapons and armour
Each warrior you recruit can be armed with up to two close combat weapons (in addition to his free dagger), up to two different missile weapons and any armour chosen from the appropriate list.

Under the "post battle sequence" heading in the "Campaigns" section of the core rulebook (second page of third rulebook PDF).
Quote :
8 Hire new recruits & buy common items. New recruits come equipped with their free dagger and may be bought common items.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 2 Feb 2012 - 2:04

Quote :
I keep seeing references to Flagellants using a dagger. I think this is wrong, the "first free" dagger is not on their hand-to-hand combat list. Am I missing something or is this a house rule change to the original rules?
If someone don't have it, it is stated in weaons/weapons as "none" or in some other text that prevents model from using eq (animals, ghouls, some monsters, zombie....) Only additional dagger and other weapons are listed in weapon options.

@ sabotage! Thanks! That is really helpfull. thumbsup Ork player tends to move his entire warband in one group with henchmen screening heroes, goblins and squigs at the fore. When coming in range/line of sight of my crossbows, he often hides every model behind the building and refuses to move until I'll do something that let him charge, move further (skirmish scenario). That's what I remember - I had a last battle against the orcs long time ago...
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 2 Feb 2012 - 8:25

catachanfrog wrote:

Poor Orcs... In fact Beastmen(!), Possessed(!), and Dwarves also start with 4 heroes. I think it's a fourth time when I'm telling, that I don't want to make wyrdostone-hunting warband.

Beastmen have 5 heroes. Three or witch have stats very mych like orc boss (Bestigors and chieftain Ws4 S4 T4) only with better movement and Ld 7 instead of eight. Both Chieftain(65gc.) and bestigors(45gc.) are much cheaper than orc boss too. Yup, they have an expensive centigor, but he is not bad a hero by half. Possesed? they can have 5 heroic guys too, if you cut on henchmen. Only Dwarves remain, and I wouldn't say there is anything wrong with them.

Sorry for responding to such an ancient post, just that part didn't seem right to me.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 10 Feb 2012 - 14:10

Flagellents arent supposed to have daggers, thats why its not included.
not only isnt it included with the models description when you buy it. but the dagger isnt in their equipment list either. meaning they couldnt use it even if they had it!
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 11 Feb 2012 - 4:49

Supposed? EVERYONE has a free dagger. Except for animals and other "non equipment" models. If daggers were on their equipment list, I don't think anyone would bother with flails or great weapons...
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 12 Feb 2012 - 3:44

Flagellants without ANY daggers? Man, that would suck Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 12 Feb 2012 - 3:53

Indeed. I never thought that such issue would ever appear. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 12 Feb 2012 - 4:01

Relax, I guess they can use daggers Smile But If people here should claim otherwise... tongue
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 12 Feb 2012 - 4:04

I'm not worrying. Cool And it's not my problem if someone thinks otherwise. check your PM, would you?
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