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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 13:13

Oooops!!!!
I have an annoucement to nake:
I am wrong and, you're right! I beg every one of you for forgivness!!! Sad I just realised about what I was arguing about.sorry everyone! pale
Neverthless, Shooting with a magical-point-blank-shooting-attack sounds stupid to me. Models armed with missle weapons have to choose: firing or charging. Wizards can do both. And more then that: they de facto, have 2 attack sequences, which means the can knock/stunn someone in first and finish them of in a second. In my opinion, magical shooting attack shoud be restricted as normal shooting is. Is my reasoning bad?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 13:31

And now for something completely different:


@ catchafrog: I couldn't find a rule that prohibits this 2-attack sequences, so it seems you are right. I guess this isn't houseruled by many for no reason.

@ Saranor: too late! How was the game tonight?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Mon 16 Jan 2012 - 16:13

Eight witch hunter's didn't realise, that witch is posing with them?! Lack of vigiliance is a first step on the road to corruption! Twisted Evil

Generally, I can write whatever I want about my warband rules changing - it's all for nothing because my opponent said straightforward that he's getting no profit in return so he doesn't agree on anything I propose.heh. Neutral

Today we played dwarves (orc player) vs witch hunters. That was a weirdest battle i ever played - especially warhound surrounded by 2 beardlings and trollslayer, stubbornly refused to die for 7 turns until I eventually failed a rout test. I lost pit fighter and a crossbow witch hunter and didn't kill anything. Entire battle took place in a ruined building, which due to my mistake was occupied by dwarves from turn 2. (we played after rout neverthless)
General afterthoughs are:
Witch hunter's with crossbows are too difficult to use for me with their move or shoot (I know it's obvios). Although I managed to kill an engineer with a bolt it was 6/6/5 roll, so it doesn't count cause it was "lucky shoot". So I'm still against them. For now.
On the other hand, my sword/pistol witch hunter and brace of pistols/great sword captain were quite effective, with captain taking down 2 (dwarf noble included) and hunter 1 warrior. Captain's weapon combination though expensive is really handy when fighting T4 enemies. In fact, greatsword is almost exclusively used for finishing off knocked down enemies, but I'm glad to pay for it.
I had 2 flagellants - one didn't even get a swing with his flail cause ther was no room for him in a crowded building. The second, fought a strange duel with a beardling with neither side able to hit (or wound) the other. Finally he stunned the dwarf but the battle was over. After that I came to conclusion that my campaign flagellants will be equipped with two handed-weapons. When fighting skaven I will strike last (unless I charge) so it makes no difference , and when fighting orcs additional strenght would be a nice bonus and I can switch to dagger after all. Flails are not worthy 15 gc in my opinion. (in our games warriors with two handed weapons strike first when charging).
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Mon 16 Jan 2012 - 20:27

catachanfrog wrote:

Generally, I can write whatever I want about my warband rules changing - it's all for nothing because my opponent said straightforward that he's getting no profit in return so he doesn't agree on anything I propose.heh. Neutral

Yea, I'm soo bad Evil or Very Mad

Changes approved thus far:
war hounds count as half a model, just like "Not an Orc" rule (at a cost of not using flagellants Ld for purpose of rout, and you got to choose witch of those options was better for you)
you can equip buckler along with dagger gaining second attack and parry/ re-roll (Orcs don't have bucklers, but this affects skaven as well, but third players opinion is unknown, perhaps he doesn't remember)
Flaglellants don't have to take Bs advance at all and roll for another statistic.
Witch Hunters can take 15 models as a max

What Witch hunters demand:
cheaper zealots (17gc instead of 20),. Just because they are so much worse than my gobbos with their Bs value of 3 and short bows. Zealots don't have animosity, mind you, and nobody eats them with their equipment after getting LGT. Oh, they can use normal bows too - better range by 8")
Witch hunter starting experience lowered from 8 to 4exp. Two more advancement rolls as a total + slightly faster leveling at the beginning of campaign.

Reason? Witch hunters are too weak, poor fellas. What are they doing in Mordheim, city of the damned? I guess they are lost, or maybe looking for their wet nurses Smile ( no offense intended for other Witch Hunter warbands, unless they are equally downtrodden Smile )

Other changes:
We will probably lower range/increase price of skaven slings. Currently they are by all means and purposes better than short bows, witch is very odd.

Changes in my favor as an orc player:
reloading rules apply for CC with pistols (makes sense in my opinion, they are no crossbow pistols to be always loaded, regardless of circumstances, when entering CC)
Maybe, just maybe Orcs will get to wear heavy armour (it appears to be undecided yet - and from what I recall flagellant heroes will have that ability too )

So, is it just me, or something is out of balance here? I'm getting tired and bored of constant bickering about how hard is to be a witch hunter. Having half a mind to play Mordheim using raw rules. You are trying my patience.
And quit blaming me for witch hunters being what they are.

catachanfrog wrote:

When fighting skaven I will strike last (unless I charge) so it makes no difference , and when fighting orcs additional strenght would be a nice bonus and I can switch to dagger after all. Flails are not worthy 15 gc in my opinion. (in our games warriors with two handed weapons strike first when charging).

When we were discussing orc animosity you were absolutely against letting orc warrior lay down his maces/2HW and attacking with his dagger. having a change of heart? I guess that a half mad flagellant right before charging a foul skaven really would swap Big, Bad Flail/2HW for his trusty dagger:) How could he harm such cuddly, furry critter? Laughing
Not that I have something against it, just never thought I could use your own arguments against you so soon (animosity thread is still warm). And I love poking people with sticks Twisted Evil

P.s.
That was flawles dwarven victory! eeexcellent!
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 5:37

Quote :
catachanfrog wrote:

When fighting skaven I will strike last (unless I charge) so it makes no difference , and when fighting orcs additional strenght would be a nice bonus and I can switch to dagger after all. Flails are not worthy 15 gc in my opinion. (in our games warriors with two handed weapons strike first when charging).


When we were discussing orc animosity you were absolutely against letting orc warrior lay down his maces/2HW and attacking with his dagger. having a change of heart? I guess that a half mad flagellant right before charging a foul skaven really would swap Big, Bad Flail/2HW for his trusty dagger:) How could he harm such cuddly, furry critter? Laughing
Not that I have something against it, just never thought I could use your own arguments against you so soon (animosity thread is still warm). And I love poking people with sticks Twisted Evil


How are you today? After reading you're post i conclude that rather not well. Can't you really see no diference? When I choose to strike with dagger, I do it to gain advantage of: my highger initiative and high strenght. He is still good with his S4 attack and doesn't strike last. So according to situation I'm choosing better option: strike fast but weaker or strike hard but last. and I'm using both combination to KILL something. You choose dagger to do less harm to another orc/goblin while I'm using it to be more effective. So you think you're still using my argument's agianst me? Or do you need more time than most people to see a difference?my arguments against me... Laughing Laughing Laughing

Quote :
What Witch hunters demand:
cheaper zealots (17gc instead of 20),. Just because they are so much worse than my gobbos with their Bs value of 3 and short bows. Zealots don't have animosity, mind you, and nobody eats them with their equipment after getting LGT. Oh, they can use normal bows too - better range by 8")
These are not my ideas the are taken from shotguncoffee's link on the first page.
http://indadvendt.dk/fixed-mordheim/core_warbands.pdf
Your only reaction on that changes was: THAT SIGMARITE GREATHAMMER IS BULLSHIT!!! Zealot wit BS 2 with bow is better than BS 3 goblin with shortbow? You're getting ridiculous. And that's supposed to be an argument?
Witch hunter starting experience lowered from 8 to 4exp. Two more advancement rolls as a total + slightly faster leveling at the beginning of campaign.
Quote :
Witch hunter starting experience lowered from 8 to 4exp. Two more advancement rolls as a total + slightly faster leveling at the beginning of campaign.
Yeah. Look at Big Uns and Shaman starting xp - shaman get's a first advance for SURVIVING A BATTLE ONLY, while Big Uns for surviving and getting a killpoint. And that's fair? You seem to mistake possibility with actual advantage - my wh with their crappy stats can get more xp and advance rolls but your heroes with better stats will almost certainly advance after a first battle. But that's ok I thing.
Quote :
Reason? Witch hunters are too weak, poor fellas. What are they doing in Mordheim, city of the damned? I guess they are lost, or maybe looking for their wet nurses Smile ( no offense intended for other Witch Hunter warbands, unless they are equally downtrodden Smile )
So in fact you're insulting not only me but EVERY player (not only WH) who thinks that some warbands require some changes.
Quote :
Other changes:
We will probably lower range/increase price of skaven slings. Currently they are by all means and purposes better than short bows, witch is very odd.

Changes in my favor as an orc player:
reloading rules apply for CC with pistols (makes sense in my opinion, they are no crossbow pistols to be always loaded, regardless of circumstances, when entering CC)
Maybe, just maybe Orcs will get to wear heavy armour (it appears to be undecided yet - and from what I recall flagellant heroes will have that ability too )

I agreed on reloading rules as an logical obviousness. Sure I argued about that when we started playing mordheim, which was long ago and I was rather inexperienced and thought that pistol were godsend with "every first close combat round S4". But that was long time ago. You on the other hand don't agree on anything that makes another warband more balanced (you say powerful) or makes yours weaker in your opinion (ex animosity). Buckler+dagger rule is no longer existent since yeasterday, when you told me "it would be too good - we play by the rules". And do not dare to say otherwise. Demanding that flagellants or let's say beastmen, must take BS when they couldn't take shooting weapons at all is fu$@#@% retarded, unjust and WAAC point of view. And you say that I should be thankful for your generosity?
Yesterday you frowned a lot about me using that "not a witchunter" wardog rule. Remember that skaven grats also use it. And it was not AT THE COST of my flagellant's ld. I agreed on that without any profit cause I thought it would be more snsible for using heroes LD not henchmen's.

And after all it is you who said that any changes to my warband are unaccapted as long as you gain nothing in return. I feel cheated.

So people tell me: are my changes too blatant, unjust or gamebreaking to accept?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 7:27

catachanfrog wrote:
So people tell me: are my changes too blatant, unjust or gamebreaking to accept?
I for one do not feel that Witch hunters are in need of any changes. Sure, Zealots are crap, but can be treated as such. Throw 'em at the enemy to slow down their movement, or as an extra attack or two (preferably with mace or hammer). Buy an extra henchman now and then to sacrifice for the cause. Flagellants and warhounds on the other hand are excellent henchmen. Witch hunters with pistols or crossbow pistols are great, if you want to move in for some close combat. While you do not have the high T of orcs, you do have better equipment, and should have more gold. Use that to your advantage. Witch hunters are slow starters, like many warbands, but when they get their speed up, they're really great - give them some time!

Also, perhaps both Aureus and you could tone your arguments down a bit - there really is no need for the ad personam-stuff. Keep it civil, and you stand a better chance of convincing each other.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 8:55

Aureus wrote:
Changes in my favor as an orc player:
reloading rules apply for CC with pistols (makes sense in my opinion, they are no crossbow pistols to be always loaded, regardless of circumstances, when entering CC)
Sorry, of course this makes sense, because this is no change at all. Smile
The rules never allowed pistols to be fired in close combat when they were fired in the same turn's Shooting phase already. Smile

Reasoning: "A pistol takes a whole turn to reload" (LRB, p. 31).
A whole turn = One Recovery phase + one Movement phase + one Shooting phase + one Close Combat phase (cf. LRB, p. 8 ); and the reloading sequence does not continue in the Close Combat phase if the warrior is engaged in combat, i. e. he must have the time to actually do something to his weapon (cf. FAQ, too lazy to look up the exact phrase now Wink).
Between a Shooting phase in which the pistol is fired and the Close combat phase of the same turn there are obviously not nearly enough phases that the pistol can possibly be reloaded again, so no shooting. Smile

You should try to squeeze a real change in your favour out of the bargain. Wink

If you bargain at all, because I second folketsfiende: In my opinion, too, Witch Hunters are not broken at all and do not need changes. Smile
/Edit: In catachanfrog's favour (and because of his phrasing), I have to say, however, that the changes in question are (in my opinion) not too game-breaking or would cause Witch Hunters to magically wipe the floor with everyone, neither. They are simply not necessary, so should be discussed as true gentlemen discuss: With a good cigar, a glass of wine, a beautiful woman at one's side and a bucket of dice and toy soldiers on the table! piratWink


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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 8:57

folketsfiende wrote:

I for one do not feel that Witch hunters are in need of any changes. Sure, Zealots are crap, but can be treated as such. Throw 'em at the enemy to slow down their movement, or as an extra attack or two (preferably with mace or hammer). Buy an extra henchman now and then to sacrifice for the cause. Flagellants and warhounds on the other hand are excellent henchmen. Witch hunters with pistols or crossbow pistols are great, if you want to move in for some close combat. While you do not have the high T of orcs, you do have better equipment, and should have more gold. Use that to your advantage. Witch hunters are slow starters, like many warbands, but when they get their speed up, they're really great - give them some time!

Also, perhaps both Aureus and you could tone your arguments down a bit - there really is no need for the ad personam-stuff. Keep it civil, and you stand a better chance of convincing each other.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
I got a bit worked up about this argument. I guess if we wont find a solution, we will just play by the book.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 9:11

Quote :
Hand-to-hand: Pistols can be used in hand-to-hand combat as
well as for shooting. A model armed with a pistol and
another close combat weapon gains +1 Attack, which is
resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier. This bonus
attack can be used only once per combat. If you are firing a
brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the
first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a
modelís Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack
and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are
resolved at Strength 4 and with
a -2 save modifier, regardless
of the firerís Strength.
It was about hth not shooting. And as I said it was when we started playing mordhiem - so we were inexpierienced and young.
Ok. I'm tired of squeezing other option than 4 crossbows witch hunters, and fighting opinion that zealots are good warriors.So I give up.cheers Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 9:16

catachanfrog wrote:
It was about hth not shooting. And as I said it was when we started playing mordhiem - so we were inexpierienced and young.
I know, but a pistol is still fired, whether in the Shooting phase or in the Close Combat phase. And to be fired, it must be loaded first, which it is not if it was fired before in the same turn.
You can only fire a pistol in close combat if you did not use it for shooting before (or enough time has passed for you to have reloaded it again). Smile
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 9:20

Mephysto wrote:
Aureus wrote:
Changes in my favor as an orc player:
reloading rules apply for CC with pistols (makes sense in my opinion, they are no crossbow pistols to be always loaded, regardless of circumstances, when entering CC)
Sorry, of course this makes sense, because this is no change at all. Smile
The rules never allowed pistols to be fired in close combat when they were fired in the same turn's Shooting phase already. Smile

Well our previous reasoning was based on sentence " a model armed with a pistol and another cc weapon gains +1 attack". Thus, if he gains attack with pistol, then he gains it (reloaded or not - fired in previous shooting turn or not) It is unrealistic by my standards, and and in my opinion its just result of bad choice of words in the pistols cc rules.

Mephysto wrote:

You should try to squeeze a real change in your favour out of the bargain. Wink

Maybe I will Smile Too bad there is precious little that I would like to change in my warband. Allowing orcs to wear heavy armor is the only thing, that comes to my mind at the moment. Not that I think it would make orcs unstoppable, any model with 2HW ignores heavy armor bonuses to begin with. I just like to think of my orcs as an armor clad behemots Very Happy And light armour would kind of put my boss conversion to waste Cool
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 12:29

(1) These are not my changes but Asp's

(2) These changes are NOT meant to be taken ON TOP of the other changes that you guys have agreed on. So if you are going to use that, use it as-is. You should. It features nifty modifications such a Witch Hunters starting with the correct about of XP (4 instead of Cool.

(3) Both GW Orc Warband and GW Dwarf Warband has a powel level that is well above With Hunters from the book.

(4) Again, Sigmarite Great Hammer can ONLY be taken by the Warrior Priest and he pays a heavy price in the form of reduced missile weapon choices.

(5) As per official rules, pistols do not reload in Close Combat.

(6) In any forum, but especially this one, there will always be a lot of people saying that the game is balanced and doesn't need fixing. I belive this is wrong. The people who stick with the game are the people who can accept the poor design and balance. The people who want something more balanced find other games. This is a problem known as self-selection bias.

(7) It is obvious that GW's warband lists are not even remotely balanced. Of the warbands in the core book Skaven and Sisters are the strongest and Middenheimers and (maybe) Witch Hunters are the weakest. Then came all the later warband lists, such as Orcs, Dwarfs and Carnival of Chaos, who are even better than Skaven and Sisters.

(Cool Since you seem to care so much about balance, try checking out some other rules modificiations, there are some out there that are far more balanced than the official rules.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Tue 17 Jan 2012 - 12:33

(1) These are not my changes but Asp's

(2) These changes are NOT meant to be taken ON TOP of the other changes that you guys have agreed on. So if you are going to use that, use it as-is. You should. It features nifty modifications such a Witch Hunters starting with the correct about of XP (4 instead of Cool.

(3) Both GW Orc Warband and GW Dwarf Warband has a powel level that is well above With Hunters from the book.

(4) Again, Sigmarite Great Hammer can ONLY be taken by the Warrior Priest and he pays a heavy price in the form of reduced missile weapon choices.

(5) As per official rules, pistols do not reload in Close Combat.

(6) In any forum, but especially this one, there will always be a lot of people saying that the game is balanced and doesn't need fixing. I belive this is wrong. The people who stick with the game are the people who can accept the poor design and balance. The people who want something more balanced find other games. This is a problem known as self-selection bias.

(7) It is obvious that GW's warband lists are not even remotely balanced. Of the warbands in the core book Skaven and Sisters are the strongest and Middenheimers and (maybe) Witch Hunters are the weakest. Then came all the later warband lists, such as Orcs, Dwarfs and Carnival of Chaos, who are even better than Skaven and Sisters.

(Cool Since you seem to care so much about balance, try checking out some other rules modificiations, there are some out there that are far more balanced than the official rules.
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PostSubject: On warband balance   Wed 18 Jan 2012 - 2:05

When people say that a certain warband is unbalanced, they obviously can mean different things:
1) That the warband is more or less difficult to play than others involved in the campaign.

This can be difficult to handle, unless the playing skill or accuracy of the player in question in some way compensates. If it is discovered that the perceived unbalancedness creates problems for the campaign, these should be adressed. The aim of the game is to have fun, and if some players feel that they're at severe disadvantage, this damages the campaign. The other players should then concede some changes. I would though advice to be patient - some warbands reveal their strengths later than others, and in some cases players choose to play warbands against their strengths.

2) That a warband is only "playworthy" when played in a certain single manner.

It is not given that each warband should have different playstyles. There is a plethora of warbands available. If one seems unfitting for how you want to play, then move on. This forum is full of people that can point in the right direction. That said, experienced players can play a warband even in a manner which is not meant to be played, and succeed. Also, a group of flexible minds should be able to reconstruct a warband in another vein, as stated above.

3) That the warband is fundamentally flawed.

There are a few warbands that are now and then claimed to be too much (or too little). I won't name any, since I don't subscribe to this view, due to the general uncompetetiveness of my group, which makes them a non-issue to me. These warbands should probably be altered from the start of the campaign. The problem is that there are many fixes floating around the internet, and choosing among them can be troublesome. Here I would advice a policy of conservatism. Make small changes, and few. If the changes are perceived as insufficient, make one more change or enhance one already made. The rule of changing rules in the Mordheim system is that surprisingly small changes can have tremendous impact on the game mechanics as a whole.

Generally, strong opinions and harsh words lead nowhere, as does reluctance to try changes. So, my final advice is this: give the changes a try, and if they don't work out, it's not the end of the world. Just remake the changes, and go again. Asp, Shotguncoffe and the others have put lots of work into their changes - and if you like the look of Coreheim or their Mordheimfix, try it! If you want smaller changes, there are loads of good ideas on this forum! But don't be afraid to try!

Lastly, I would like to apologise for the unnecessarily complicated English I've used in this message. I've been reading David Humes An Inquiry concerning the Principles of Morals the last few days, and its a treasure chest of wonderful prose.


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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 18 Jan 2012 - 2:08

shotguncoffee wrote:
(6) In any forum, but especially this one, there will always be a lot of people saying that the game is balanced and doesn't need fixing. I belive this is wrong. The people who stick with the game are the people who can accept the poor design and balance. The people who want something more balanced find other games. This is a problem known as self-selection bias.
I'm curious as to how exactly this can be considered self-selection bias, but then again I'm not quite familiar with the term. Perhaps you can shed some light on the matter?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 18 Jan 2012 - 2:52

folketsfiende wrote:
shotguncoffee wrote:
(6) In any forum, but especially this one, there will always be a lot of people saying that the game is balanced and doesn't need fixing. I belive this is wrong. The people who stick with the game are the people who can accept the poor design and balance. The people who want something more balanced find other games. This is a problem known as self-selection bias.
I'm curious as to how exactly this can be considered self-selection bias, but then again I'm not quite familiar with the term. Perhaps you can shed some light on the matter?
Wiki it (I had to). Laughing I don't know whether the Swedish Wikipedia is blacked out but if you would be using the English Wikipedia then you'll need to wait until tomorrow! Shocked

In terms of this forum though, shotguncoffee is essentially saying that since we are a group of people who are passionate about Mordheim we attract like-minded people who are also passionate about Mordheim and as a group it is quite likely that we will be resistant to large changes to the Mordheim rules. The people who don't like Mordheim look for other games and leave this forum which is focused on Mordheim. (I wish them well in their searching and I hope that they can find a game that they will enjoy as much as I enjoy Mordheim.) Hence it is likely that there is a bias in this forum towards people who like the Mordheim rules how they currently are (or with only minor changes).
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 18 Jan 2012 - 5:32

So essentially, we only want to pat ourselves on the shoulders about how great Mordheim is. How ... boring. This place should be named the Boring Mord... oh, wait. Razz;)

I agree to folketsfiende's post - and thank you for it. This brings it to the point and is well articulated, friendly and a good foundation for discussions to which 'even' people who would want more of Tom's Progressive Mordheim Forum should be able to agree. Hume was obviously not the worst reading choice you could have made. Wink


One of the key points, in my opinion, is the approach to changing rules - the general consensus (here, as shotguncoffee correctly points out) indeed seems to be what folketsfiende describes as 'Conservatism, but not opposed to changes on principle' - but this does not have to collide with a more progressive approach; the only thing different is the speed with which a change that proves to have been necessary (on the global, game-system-itself basis - individual gaming communities of course should not wait for changes on this level, but take matters in their own hands, if they see the need) is incorporated, and that the one side lets this necessity prove itself in hindsight, while the other one goes about it in a direct and frontal way. Both positions have their merit, and both can profit from each other.

Oh yes, and sorry if engaging in meta-discussion derails the thread too much. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Wed 18 Jan 2012 - 16:58

Back in my day there were only SIX warbands!!! Dang kids and your Tomfoolerly!

(Sorry had to say it...) lol!
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 19 Jan 2012 - 8:48

That's why I prefer to write NEW rules rather than changing the old ones.

Ex. Rather than making an even less official change to the Bretonnian warband, which would be met with protests and ranting, I made a new group, "the Bretonnian Chapel Guard."

Keeps the creative juices flowing. The liberal gamers can comment all they want, and the purests can simply ignore me without feeling their "way of life" is being threatened or insulted.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 19 Jan 2012 - 9:46

That's why I prefer to write NEW rules rather than changing the old ones.[/quote]

Nothing wrong with that, I say. Unfortunately we are a competitive bunch, always vigil of the other players tampering with the rules too much in their favor Twisted Evil

StyrofoamKing wrote:

Keeps the creative juices flowing. The liberal gamers can comment all they want, and the purests can simply ignore me without feeling their "way of life" is being threatened or insulted.

I think we will chill out a bit after our first campaign. For now we intend to apply only small fixes, just to see how will it go. But later on, who knows Smile There are some nice ideas to find in the web. I liked the recently posted undead warband concept ( the one with wraith), though I would change some details. As of now even unofficial warbands are a big NO-NO, not to mention player made ones (not without a reason, though - people tend to get carried away creating them).
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 4:08

i sincerely do not think that witch hunters are on the same power level with O&C

20 models, lots of S4 and T4, monster, special skills, 15gc henchmen, 25gc, T4 henchmen

yes, WH have pistols but these are expensive and we all know that quantity > quality in mordheim
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 4:33

hm... O&G may be strong, but they have monster with stupitity and all suffer animosity. They have no access to academic skills (for income or if you use the annual for hunch, tactician).
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 5:14

And they start with only four heroes, and all those cheap gobbos cannot be promoted to heroes. On average, WH should make a lot more money early in the campaign and will have a lot more equipment.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 5:19

shotguncoffee wrote:
i sincerely do not think that witch hunters are on the same power level with O&C

20 models, lots of S4 and T4, monster, special skills, 15gc henchmen, 25gc, T4 henchmen

yes, WH have pistols but these are expensive and we all know that quantity > quality in mordheim

Yeah O&G are tough. If you have an orc+1 troll only 20 member warband in the end it is clearly much stronger. But as Wh you may have 14 members with halfing and ogre bodyguard at the same time probably with flagellant heroes.

I seethe differencesin the rules as modified potential.

The badic rules may influence the potential. skaven and orcs have mor than witch hunter or mercenaries. But the most important thing is what happens to you between the games.

Do you only get I and Ld improvements or A, T and W improvements.

The most of the unused potential is lying there. I started with my witch hunters very well and have after three games 14 members + halfling+ pit fighter and 2 flaggelants. I had no losses which is awesome. I can shoot well, but also can give you a hard close combat.

Basically the WH can do both well.

My Tileans on the other hand are a better warband at the beginning, as Miragleans they are a range combat power, maybe even stronger than reikland mercenaries. But what happened to them? I lost the games due to some really bad shooting and also lost a lot of members which i needed to rebuy. After three games they are only 11 members without hired swords.

I now you love the coreheim rule variant. But basically in this game it could happen to you too. A bad developement between the games also leads to unfair warband strengths.

But this lucky warband development is part of the game too. Is it fair? No, but it is exciting and gives you the roleplay kick.

Mordheim is not a really good game to decide who is the best tactican on the board, i think it is also not good as a competitive tournament game. But it is perfect as beer and pretzel game with friends. And you will get some really good stories to tell.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 5:23

SerialMoM wrote:
Mordheim is not a really good game to decide who is the best tactican on the board, i think it is also not good as a competitive tournament game. But it is perfect as beer and pretzel game with friends. And you will get some really good stories to tell.
Totally agree. I like winning but I like playing even more.
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