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Mephysto
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 8:33

shotguncoffee wrote:
actually i am quite amazed at the poor arguments in favor of what is plainly bad design.

that said, the FORM of the debate is civil. thats great.
Well, if there are arguments (coming from more than only my own single delusional mind), it is not so "plain", innit? Wink

And I agree, the Witch Hunters are the way they are by design - good or bad design, that remains for the individual to decide for him- / herself. But this decision hinges on more than just number-crunching, and if only number-crunching arguments can be made (that do not hold once the warband is taken to the table and actually played and half of the oh so feared, but purely hypothetical situations never come up), that is what I call a bit of a "poor" argument. Wink

/Edit: Well, the Weaver beat me to it. But at least I make this topic page 2! Yay. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 10:09

shotguncoffee wrote:
actually i am quite amazed at the poor arguments in favor of what is plainly bad design.

that said, the FORM of the debate is civil. thats great.

Regarding the arguments i totally disagree.

I myself have the elitist witch hunter feeling when i play this warband. Brethren and flagelants and war dogs are fitting very well to the background.

Playing Mordheim is not a tournament where you have to proof that you are the best player.

Playing Mordheim is like playing a movie / story on the board with a couple of friends.

There is no need for perfect rules, there is need for room for the creativity and stories of the players.

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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 10:59

I had the rare opportunity to play a Witch Hunter warband in our current campiagn. They are so popular in our group that I rarely get a chance. But I wanted to experiment so I went with the Reiklander rules joined by a Sigmarite Priest from Werekin's Miracle Worker rules.

I'm getting my ass kicked. I do miss the income potential of the Witch Hunters and the punch of flagellants. I rarely use zealots.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 13:36

Quote :
I think it is telling that you have not actually played them yet, catachanfrog. It is always a good idea to play with a warband some before altering them.

mweaver - I played them a lot. I had no serious problems (or even no problems at all) against dwarves, delves, middenheim or possessed.


Quote :
There is no need for perfect rules, there is need for room for the creativity and stories of the players.

TOTALLY disagree about that rules part. I'm under impression that about 50% (if not more) of the topics in "rules and gameplay" are about changees in official rules. So rules are rather important.
Problems appeared when my friend decided to play orcs. Well... I didn't win a single battle against him. And with shame I must admin that the point is: I canno't win with WH when fighting orcs Crying or Very sad
Orc lists I fought against were all like this:
15 warriors total
9 orks
6 goblins/squigs
3-4 archers (mixed).
I lost because there were too much orcs with their T4. Orcish thoughness affects my warband on 2 levels: building the list and playing it. When building it I have to spend more money on s-boosting equipment which means less money for warriors. In this case, warhounds are "great" because they let you wound orc on normal 4+. And flagellants - well I still think they are OVERPRICED or UNDERPOWERED. 2 orcs wih dagger and mace = 56. 1 flagellant with d-h weapon/flail 55. what would you prefer? I still can't understand why all of you see a flagellant as ubertroop Very Happy Expensive, with only one attack,limited selection of expensive weapons (and good S,T)...
In last battle my warband was 12 man strong (with tilean marksman). I had 2 flagellants, 4 warhounds, wh with crossbow, whc with crossbow and rest of heroes a mix of mace,sword,pistol.

Anyway, who of you have played and won against the orcs with wh? any lists? tactics?
I'm little tired now so may post is surely incoherent.sorry

P.S ANd I didn't loose because my friend is better strategist. He loses almost EVERY battle when he's not playing orcs.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 14:12

Sorry, catachanfrog. Lept to a conclusion based on your opening sentence (that you were going to be playing them in a campaign... which of course doesn't mean you haven't played them before).

Orc boy vs flagellant - could go either way. But the flagellant has better overall stats, so he does cost more. The Flaggie has +1 Str, +1 Init, and +3 Ldr compared to the orc boy... and the flagellant is not going to take one of his buddies out of action due to an animosity roll!





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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 15:00

Yeah Orcs are hard opponents.

But with 4 crossbows and the Tilean marksman you should have the superior firepower which can take out one or two of them.

In close combat you may get the two or three others before he gets you below 75%.

Maybe the orcs ( or the oponent who plays them) are your personel kryptonit.

The 15orc warband is nothing too special in my opinion.

I haven't played against orcs withmy WH too often, more against dwarves. They were solvable by a massive combined strike of wardogs and pit fighter hired sword. Yeah their numbers were lower but they fight harder.

@rule changes: we also play with house rules to increase variability of close combat weapons. But we wouldn't change the official warbands.

What i really like most in the rules section is the generating warband part. We have some really cool warband writers here in the forum
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 15:52

Quote :
But with 4 crossbows and the Tilean marksman you should have the superior firepower which can take out one or two of them.

In close combat you may get the two or three others before he gets you below 75%.

I had 2 shooty heroes and tilean - and believe me - they best they did was, 1stun and 1 knock for entire game. Sad
Quote :
Maybe the orcs ( or the oponent who plays them) are your personel kryptonit.

That may be true. Very Happy
I'm considering fielding my captain as a hth fighter again.Mayby he's good shooter and it's safer on the rooftop than surrounded by enemies, but... I still remember how effective he was with brace of pistols, gw and sword/mace. I know it's a lot of points on one model, but as far as I can recall he always put 2 - 3 enemies OoA per battle. With crossbow he killed none Mad

I'm wondering about shooting hired sword(s). Assuming that I have 40 gc to spend, I can choose between elf ranger and halfling scout+tilean marksman (orc player doesn't agree on mounted warriors so roadwarden is useless). Elf ranger is cool, I'm converting one in this very moment. He is excellent shoot and almost impossible to hit back by most warriors. He's fast, his range is great and seeker rule makes him a big deal. On the other hand he's expensive, his elfbow is weaker against T4 and has only sword for cc...
Halfling scout: BS4,I4,bow and abillity to increas my warband max size. Tilean marksman hits always on 3+ with S4, and is well equiped for cc when compared to elf ranger (light armour, sword, dagger). However, he's move-or-shoot and I3.
What's better?
Or shoud I boost my warband's melee prowess by hiring pit fighter?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 17:48

catachanfrog wrote:

P.S ANd I didn't loose because my friend is better strategist. He loses almost EVERY battle when he's not playing orcs.

Damn, now you've hurt my feelings Crying or Very sad

Won a battle or two..grumble... grumble... and now he's... more grumbling...

Anyway, flagellants underpowered? Each one has a profile comparable to my ork boss (with lower ws/bs, of course) and giving them more attacks/equipment would really turn them into "ubertroops". And if they are too expensive, well, you always can leave them with their daggers Laughing (ow, come on that's still 1 attack S4, and you save 15gc - just enough to buy one war hound per flaggellant Cool )
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 19:18

catachanfrog wrote:

I'm wondering about shooting hired sword(s). Assuming that I have 40 gc to spend, I can choose between elf ranger and halfling scout+tilean marksman (orc player doesn't agree on mounted warriors so roadwarden is useless). Elf ranger is cool, I'm converting one in this very moment. He is excellent shoot and almost impossible to hit back by most warriors. He's fast, his range is great and seeker rule makes him a big deal. On the other hand he's expensive, his elfbow is weaker against T4 and has only sword for cc...
Halfling scout: BS4,I4,bow and abillity to increas my warband max size. Tilean marksman hits always on 3+ with S4, and is well equiped for cc when compared to elf ranger (light armour, sword, dagger). However, he's move-or-shoot and I3.
What's better?
Personally, I always go for the Elf first - and I am always amazed how often his +1 really makes a difference and gives me one more Shard / Treasure. With more money, the Halfling (and maybe even an additional Halfling cookbook, so you can have +2 warriors more) would be my next choice, and the Tilean last.
But since you write that the Orcs' T4 is the main problem you are facing, in this case, the 'big guns first' policy indeed seems to be the most sensible course. My vote goes to your second option - and since your heroes have ready access to Academic skills, you can take Wyrdstone Hunter for some of them and at least re-roll low dice in the Exploration phase, which should be nearly as good (if not better, in some cases) as the Elf's Seeker ability. Smile

The decision about hiring a close or a ranged combat mercenary really depends on the table you are playing on, and the amount of terrain - do you feel that shooting in general is worth it, or does every game go 'Start - first shooting phase - everyone in cover or combat - no shooting for the rest of the game'? If the latter is the case, the Pit Fighter would probably make more sense than any shooter. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 2:41

Against orcs you should try to use a wardog to block his movement. Thats gives you more time for shooting and the orc has to roll more animosity before he gets close combat. And if he attacks your wardog, you can place him so, that he stands in the open and every attacker gets pierced by your crossbow bolts.

You could by rabbit foots (thanks to haggle and other income skills you should have the money). If you roll for injuries and you just get a knocked down, use it and try to get a stunned or OOA.

If the orcs hide to much in cover, you should use the elven ranger to discover them. 12" of discoverrange and your crossbows can shoot him.

Buy black lotus, 10 gold+D6 and a hero who has haggle is around 7 gold pieces. Thats not much if all hits with a 6 are automatic wounds. A hero with a crossbow, rabbit foot, black lotus and quick shot would be very dangerous.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 3:27

Quote :
Damn, now you've hurt my feelings Crying or Very sad

Won a battle or two..grumble... grumble... and now he's... more grumbling...
I didn't want that to sound offensive. You're really fine player. jocolor


Crossbows and wyrdstone hunter again Neutral Is there really NO OTHER WAY to play WH with success? I appreciate all of your advices but, I'm afraid that with crossbows, they will gain experience for surviving only. And that's not a way I think.

Quote :
If the orcs hide to much in cover, you should use the elven ranger to discover them. 12" of discoverrange and your crossbows can shoot him.

Buy black lotus, 10 gold+D6 and a hero who has haggle is around 7 gold pieces. Thats not much if all hits with a 6 are automatic wounds. A hero with a crossbow, rabbit foot, black lotus and quick shot would be very dangerous.
A lone fact that something is in cover mean, that my witch hunter hits on 5+. On close range of course. Remember, WH can't take the poisons. There's a lot of cool skills and I am only limited to quickshot (and other shooty skills that goes with crosbow) or money-making ones?
Look I'd like to win. When someone says he's playing only for fun, not to win, he's missing the point - and the point with games that involve 2 or more players, is victory of one of them. Smile Sure, fun is the most important thing when playing, but victory is important either.
As I said: I'd like to play and win (I know that winning all of the battles is impossible), but not at all cost (not saying that shooting witchhunters are too powerful, thou it may sound like this). Giving ALL of my witch hunters crossbows and making them money making machines doesn't suit my well. So again - Is there no other way to play efficient Witch Hunters warband? And if the answer is "no" - are they really so balanced? Crying or Very sad


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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 3:55

why do you want to play Witch Hunters?

If i think of them, i think of good equipped men like in some movies(example Helsing) with good skills with the crossbow. They are well with their words to gather informations and support for their cause.

I never think of them as great melee fighter (perhaps some experiences ones may be good in melee, but not great).

If you don't like pure crossbow heroes, try this one:
lightning reflexes
pair of pistols or pistol and sword
pair of crossbowpistol

If you charge or get charged you have first 2 shots with you crossbowpistol, than you get strike first (you should have the higher initiative) with your melee attacks. It still needs your money skills, because the equipment is expensive, but it should give your more flexibility.

Max amount of henchmen shouldn't be your drawback. With some narrow passages you should easily even the numbers of enemies which can fight at the same time.
I fought often against witchhunter with other warbands and their melee troops were realy strong...
The flagellants are tough enemies. If they stay close together, they cant't be easiliy overwhelmed. The wardogs disturb my advance or try to get my weak modells.

And your Priest can turn your warband in a realy tough enemy, if he gets his healing spell, which lets you stand up all knocked down modells in 2", without the penalty of hitting last. That gaves me the creep...
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 5:08

Saranor wrote:
why do you want to play Witch Hunters?

If i think of them, i think of good equipped men like in some movies(example Helsing) with good skills with the crossbow. They are well with their words to gather informations and support for their cause.

I never think of them as great melee fighter (perhaps some experiences ones may be good in melee, but not great).

I
I smiled when I recalled a scene, when van helsing dips his machine crossbow in holy water and then... Very Happy or you mean anime helsing? I hate anime... Well helsing was rather a monster hunter than a witch hunter in a true meaning of this word. Solomon Kane is a better exmple - although I haven't read a books, I quite enjoyed a movie.

Well, I play them because their background is very appealing to me. I see officialy sanctioned (that is important) witch hunters as an elite (yes elite = skilled) agents of the Temple of Sigmar. They are something between detective, Wh40k inquisitor and a guard commisar. I read perhaps every available thing about WH in warhammer world and in fact I must tell, that standard witch hunter wargear is rather a brace of pistols + sword than a crossbow. Have you read Witch Hunter's Handbook? It's graet and resourcefull. They are depicted, as trained by the "hardened veterans" in the use of swords (from dagger to gratsword), advanced fencing techniques, blackpowder weapons, wardogs, poisons(!!!!!!!!!!) and bludgeoning weapons. So I assume that they are quite skilled in cc.
About priest...heh. I pray for rolling healing hand. I had it once and it wad awesome!!! However, my warrior priest must be very pious, cause he's getting shield of faith too often Razz
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 5:40

catachanfrog wrote:
About priest...heh. I pray for rolling healing hand. I had it once and it wad awesome!!! However, my warrior priest must be very pious, cause he's getting shield of faith too often Razz
Thought about trying to persuade your group to allow spell/prayer casters to pick their initial spell when creating their warbands?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 6:18

Citizen Sade wrote:

Thought about trying to persuade your group to allow spell/prayer casters to pick their initial spell when creating their warbands?

That would be a death sentance for me. Orc player WILL take fire of gork ,zzap or led'z go!. And since spellcaster can cast his ("missle") spells when charged/charging and then go with his cc attacks, he can knock down, stunn or even OoA his enemies and then easily finish them off with his close combat attacks. In fact, shooty spells are almost "always strike first with I10" to me. About skaven player - I have no idea, what would he take cause his a bit inexperience yet.
I have soulfire, yes, but It's difficult to cast and is weaker when fighting orcs. I know I'm talking only about orcs and orcs but as I said skaven player has lot to learn and for now, his not much a threat.(no offence)

BTW Did enyone houseruled "shooting spels in cc"? Am I the only one who thinks it's too powerfu? Question
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 7:26

Laughing These are difficulty 8-9-9 spells so, there's no guarantee he'll get them off even if he survives long enough to make it into hand-to-hand. Hardly a death sentence.

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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 8:12

About the flagelants: the idea of only dagger wielding nearly bare handed crazy religious fighter is also cool, especially at the beginning 15 gc can be a lot of money. And when the flagelants ever get +1A they are so powerful, more than most of the heroes and you just start to buy more of them.

And when the become heroes, your opponents will have really trouble with them if they level up a lot.

@hired swords: the choice depnds on your warband and how you play them. I hired an pit fighter and later on an halfling scout to balance the weaknesses of my warband. I already had some fine fire power with 4 crossbows and one brace of duel pistols, so i choosed the really evil close combat power. The close combat output is better than the output of an ogre (higher WS better weapons), but he doesn't have three wounds and can not take so much damage like an ogre. The elf is always useful with his rules and gives you some firepower. The halfing is mandatory for WH. The Tilean marksman is nice for any warband but is not a must have.

edit: we never used missle spells in cc, but we also did not know that this would be legal. But it also makes no sense.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 8:31

SerialMoM wrote:

edit: we never used missle spells in cc, but we also did not know that this would be legal. But it also makes no sense.

We had an argument about that matter a while ago. It appears, that a wizard can use his missle spells in the shooting phase, even after he was charged. Its in the rulebook magic section. Though, he cannot cast such spells into combat, when he stands by. Alrightie, now I'm not certain if he really can't, its not quite the same as regular shooting. Hm, this matter requires another thread.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 8:54

Quote :
These are difficulty 8-9-9 spells so, there's no guarantee he'll get them off even if he survives long enough to make it into hand-to-hand. Hardly a death sentence.

I don't agree. They are medium difficulty spells and are not that hard to cast. Generally: I can plan a charge against spellcaster with my witch hunters to get a reroll, but that doesn't matter cause any wizard with a shooting spell can blast my warrior(s) to pieces before they even land a blow!!! I can't use shooting psychic powers in 40k or shooting spells in wh battle so why can I use them in Mordheim?! This rule is broken. I repeat my question:
Did enyone houseruled "shooting spels in cc"? Am I the only one who thinks it's too powerfu?
Quote :
edit: we never used missle spells in cc, but we also did not know that this would be legal. But it also makes no sense.
Yeah SerialMoM that's what I'am talking about. It makes no sens.
Quote :
Hm, this matter requires another thread.
Agree. let me do it!let me do it! bounce
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 8:57

I played Orcs in our last campaign, and Night Goblins in the campaign before that.
My Orc shaman had Zzap, and only managed to cast it about four times in ten games.
The fear of him casting it was a greater impact on my opponent than anything he actually did.

He spent more time fighting in CC than ranged casting cos i could never rely on him getting the spell off.
My Orcs outshot 5 Reiklander longbow marksmen in one memorable game, not because they were overpowered, i just got luckier dice rolls.

Squigs aren't dangerous if you OOA the handlers, Trolls aren't dangerous if you OOA the leader.
And Orcs and Goblins have to contend with animosity, which means you cant really plan to far ahead and have to stay tactically flexible, as you have no idea what models you can actually use from turn to turn.

Lastly, the beauty of Mordheim is that you don't have to "win" to progress.
After a few games of my Goblins thumping their Dark Elf adversaries, underdog XP kicked in and the DE became absolutely lethal.

Our next campaign will see me playing Witch Hunters against my opponents Orcs.
I am not worried, because the dice will generally determine the outcome, and the game is what it is.
Houserule the core rules you don't like, as we have, (one being dual wielding for example) that affect all warbands.

My Witch Hunters will be pistol heavy, with only one crossbow, and two Zealots with bows.

It may be worth noting though that we have never played that ranged spells can be cast if you are in CC.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 9:58

catachanfrog wrote:
Quote :
These are difficulty 8-9-9 spells so, there's no guarantee he'll get them off even if he survives long enough to make it into hand-to-hand. Hardly a death sentence.

I don't agree. They are medium difficulty spells and are not that hard to cast. Generally: I can plan a charge against spellcaster with my witch hunters to get a reroll, but that doesn't matter cause any wizard with a shooting spell can blast my warrior(s) to pieces before they even land a blow!!!
1) Disagree all you like, but the maximum difficulty for spell casting is 10 and there are very few spells like that.
2) Unless we've been playing it wrong all these years, spellcasters only cast in their own turn. As such, they need to wait until their turn before they try to zap you.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 10:21

Citizen Sade wrote:

2) Unless we've been playing it wrong all these years, spellcasters only cast in their own turn. As such, they need to wait until their turn before they try to zap you.

Ok from the beggining:
1.movement phase: x charges y who's spellcaster
2.shooting phase: x can't shoot (he is engaged in hand-to-hand combat) but y can cast a spell because:
Mordheim Rulebook wrote:

Spells are cast in the shooting phase, and can be used
even if the caster is in hand-to-hand combat
3.Close combat

So apparently yes, you've been playing it wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 11:19

catachanfrog wrote:
Citizen Sade wrote:

2) Unless we've been playing it wrong all these years, spellcasters only cast in their own turn. As such, they need to wait until their turn before they try to zap you.

Ok from the beggining:
1.movement phase: x charges y who's spellcaster
2.shooting phase: x can't shoot (he is engaged in hand-to-hand combat) but y can cast a spell because:
Mordheim Rulebook wrote:

Spells are cast in the shooting phase, and can be used
even if the caster is in hand-to-hand combat
3.Close combat

So apparently yes, you've been playing it wrong.
Nono, you've been playing it wrong. You can only ever shoot or cast spells in your own turn. EOD.
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Grimscull
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 11:36

Well, you can only be active in your own turn, if not mentioned otherwise:

Quote :
Turn sequence
1 Recovery
During the recovery phase you may attempt
to rally individuals who have lost their nerve
and recover models that are knocked down
or stunned.
2 Movement
During the movement phase you may move
the warriors of your warband according to
the rules given in the Movement section.3 Shooting
In the shooting phase you may shoot with
any appropriate weapons as described in the
rules for shooting.
4 Hand-to-hand combat
During the hand-to-hand combat phase all
models in hand-to-hand combat may fight.
Note that both sides fight in the hand-tohand
combat phase, regardless of whose turn
it is.

Both sides fight in hand-to-hand combat, "regardless of whose turn it is", yes. But this is only because it is specifically mentioned that they do. For shooting, movement or recovery, it is not. According to your arguement, I could also shoot, recover or move in my enemy's turn.

But hey, this is the coolest thread I've followed in the rules section for quite a while. I will start my fourth WH-warband in a couple of days and I am still getting a lot of ideas out of this! So thanks everyone!
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 13:09

We houseruled casting in Closecombat in our last campaign. You can only shoot in CC, if the caster is part of this CC.

And otherwise i agree to the version, that you can only cast in your own Shooting phase.

I should stop giving to much strategic advise here or i have to face my own advice against grimscull...
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Today at 14:51

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