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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 7:57

Witch Hunters are my choice for oncoming campaign. I find them as a warband with great potential, which is forfeited due to unjust rules and lack of errata that would make them slightly more powerful or balanced. where to begin....

LIMITED SIZE:
Maximum number of warriors in WH warband is 12. They're the ONLY warband from officials with 12 as a maximum size. Taking the background text in Warbands section:
Quote :
Witch Hunters are charismatic rabble-rousers who can soon turn a crowd to their own ends. They are universally dreaded, for everyone has something or someone to hide, and there are countless individuals who would willingly and enthusiastically hunt down and burn their own kin were a Witch Hunter to command them to do so. Bands of Witch Hunters are often accompanied by zealous citizens, Flagellants, and even holy Priests of Sigmar as well as the huge vicious warhounds which the Witch Hunters employ to track and bring down fugitives.
Does it sound like smallest warband in the game? NO!!! Take note that a word CROWD has been used...
HEROES:
Witch hunters are not elite warriors neither their equipment is. Only exception, from limited mercenary table equipment witch hunters are using is crossbow pistol, which is nice but very expensive and hard to find later on. I don't mind average profiles of my heroes but what annoys me greatly is:

- sure, they have reroll when fighting against spellcasters.so what?! If a wizard has a shooting spell, even when charged he can blast witch hunter (or two) to pieces before combat starts. I know that's IF he has a spell but neverthless-the reroll is useless when he does.(on the other hand - has anybody idea about balancing shooting wizards?)
-I think that witch hunters should get additional exp point for OoA spellcasters.That's their trade and mission after all.
-And last. Every warband except mercenaries have special skills table. Witch hunters should get one too!!! aren't they special?!!!!
(cooling down Mad )

HENCHMEN:
Wardogs are ok.There's no bad thing I could say about them - cheap, hardhitting, don't get experience.that's all.

Zealots are pathetic. With their BS/WS 2 and price of 20gc they are the worst (official) henchmen choice in entire game (my opinion). For 5 points more mercenaries have warriors with both BS,WS higher. My arch enemy Orcs - for 5 points less they have goblins with better BS and orc with T4!!! and BS/WS increased. (You may say: "Hey, but goblins are Ld5 and orcs are I2". So I ask: Who cares?! High LD is only useful when fighting any fear casuing creatures or doing all alone tests. In first case you may use leader's LD when he's nearby; in second - no one should fight alone.) In later campaign zealot combat statistics will be that of average warrior without upgrades, while in other warbands...
What pains me the most, is that zealots would never be able to support my WH in shooting - their BS is so low that giving them anything shooty is a waste of cash...

Flagellants.hmmm. The are nice but tricky. Their profile is realy, realy good and makes them almost sure would be heroes. On the other hand... They are very expensive and weapons they can wield are exepensive either. But above all - they can't wield 2 weapons. I.e. - you get one powerful attack - but if you miss you don't get another. That's the main drawback flagellants have - otherwise, the are one of the best fighters in mordheim. (Our homerule says that rout test are made against heroes only leadership values - so no LD 10 rout).

I would gladly make a homerule that gives WH 15 warriors as a max and makes zealots 5 points cheaper or gives them +1 WS or BS but my fellow players wouldn't agree. Just because. Do you think that I'm right? Or are my ideas too "gamebreaking" to accept? Sad

That's all. Sorry for long post and terrible english (especially punctuation) Rolling Eyes .
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 8:52

In our game we have a rule that all warbands have a max of 15. There doesn't seem to be any justifiable reason for witch hunters to be capped at 12 and skaven do just fine with only 15. Other than that my WH warband faired pretty well but I never did use zealots because of their lacking stats. Just like with the Beastman ungors I view that last henchman option as a warhound replacement. The warhound is a better stat line for less money but can't gain XP. The ungor/zealots have the possibility of improving over time.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 9:04

So flagellants and wardogs only? I like that "15 max rule".
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 9:06

take a look at asp's fix, which is being discussed elsewhere on these forums: http://indadvendt.dk/fixed-mordheim/core_warbands.pdf

you are right on in your criticism (including that witch hunters should start with 4xp), and the above document fixes most of that. also the problem with flaggies is that you pour 55gc into one attack. fixed mordheim fixes this by giving them 2 attacks, which is a bit more stable. even better, IMO, is coreheim, which gives flaggies S3 T3 A2, which makes them hard hitters, but also extremely vulnerable (T3, no armour) - with this, they're a glass canon and have a well-defined tactical role
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 9:26

Quote :
take a look at asp's fix, which is being discussed elsewhere on these forums: http://indadvendt.dk/fixed-mordheim/core_warbands.pdf

Never seen this before Shocked I like the changes very, very much. Shocked thanks!!

Neverthless, I doubt that my fellow players would allow me to use any of them Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 10:22

catachanfrog wrote:

Neverthless, I doubt that my fellow players would allow me to use any of them Crying or Very sad

Shush, dont cry Cool
Who said I wont? I dont recall you asking. I remember you nagging about how unfair it is. Nevertheless I would have nothing against Witch Hunters having 15 max cap. But, y'know, Dem heavy armours would look lovely on me boyz...

About that fixed rules, I would have to look into it (but already don't like great sigmarite hammer thingy).
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 11:41

I have to agree that Witch Hunters are a cool theme for a warband.

Yes, only 12 models seems wrong . Yes, wardogs are nice.

I also agree that Flagellants are very good and a Flagellant hero can become awesome.

But that's it.

I have played them many times and the hate spellcasters thing almost never comes into play. So the big perk for the warband means almost nothing.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 11:42

That being said, I've had my butt handed to me by a 12 man WH team. Don't whine until you've played with them, you might be surprised by how fair the fight is.

Skills: Except, all Witch hunters have access to Academic, unlike most warbands. That means beau coup money.

Oh, and Crossbow pistols rock.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 12:04

Limited models and Academic skills as StyrofoamKing pointed out means a lot of cash.

That means top equipment for those models that can use it, which can more than make up for size.

Quality over quantity. Its the antithesis of a horde warband.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 15:32

I houserule that the priest can take a sigmarite warhammer. Although no one has played WH in a campaign i've been in in a VERY long time...
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Thu 12 Jan 2012 - 15:56

playtable wrote:

I have played them many times and the hate spellcasters thing almost never comes into play. So the big perk for the warband means almost nothing.

I think should this effect undead, mutations, and spellcasters. Granted no one I play with has ever used them.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 1:34

hamster has a Witch Hunter warband that he has focused heavily on crossbows and shooting skills. They're a nightmare to play against, a real tactical challenge, and they do have the best equipment: heavy armour (one even gromril I think), rabbit's foot, lucky charm, and so on. In my experience you have to be really sneaky to stand a chance against well played Witch Hunters from Mid-campaign and on.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 4:53

remember, though. *only* warrior priest can take the sigmarite great hammer.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 4:55

yes; vanilla wich hunters aren't underpowered per se, just boring. check this guide on how to won with WH.

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t1628-guide-how-to-win-with-witch-hunters

though obviously, the money making thing is sort of an exploit
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 9:32

Quote :
hamster has a Witch Hunter warband that he has focused heavily on crossbows and shooting skills. They're a nightmare to play against, a real tactical challenge, and they do have the best equipment: heavy armour (one even gromril I think), rabbit's foot, lucky charm, and so on. In my experience you have to be really sneaky to stand a chance against well played Witch Hunters from Mid-campaign and on.
Quote :
yes; vanilla wich hunters aren't underpowered per se, just boring. check this guide on how to won with WH.

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t1628-guide-how-to-win-with-witch-hunters

though obviously, the money making thing is sort of an exploit

So the way is to field 4 crossbow wielding heroes wih quickshot/wyrdstone hunter as soon as they gain a skill? Is that only combination that makes WH effective?I don't like it. And yes, it sounds boring.

As I mentioned, I will be fighting against orc's and skaven. Orcs got tough cheap,orc henchmen who can take bows/ crossbows, and goblins who cost 15 and are BS3 - not mentioning skaven (BS3) with slings (that will be houseruled). What I'am afraid of is beeing HORRIBLY outshoot. Remember that orc/skaven henchmen can reach BS4 while my zealots are limited to BS3, which is starting avarage value for everyone... And at the beginning they are BS2 which is ridiculous.
Experience taught mi how much INEFFECTIVE are wh with crossbow. Why should I cry about 55 pts flagellant with only one attack, while equally expensive wh with crossbow (and mace) is even less effective? Flagellant will at least hit anything on 4+ and eliminates any knocked or stunned automatically. Besides, shooting witch hunters will progress more slowly then hth ones. I know that they might get killed sonner then the shooters, but crossbow "spam" loaths me desperate

Quote :
Quality over quantity. Its the antithesis of a horde warband.

But where's that quality at the beggining? Smile There is a difference between who they MIGHT be and who they are.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 11:35

Witch Hunters are not underpowered.

You have the best henchman. I just love wardogs cheap fast and hard hitting. In the beginning they are awesome.

I also played my WH with crossbow heroes ( also my priest got one after an increase of BS).

I really early took an halfling cook and later on the cook book. And also added the pit fighter hero for close combat power.
In our group quick shot was weakened so this skill is not a must buy anymore.

I also play the zealots because i have got some cool minis for them.

I like this warband, it is so flexible, you earn a lot of money and it does really have style.

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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 12:07

Quote :
You have the best henchman. I just love wardogs cheap fast and hard hitting. In the beginning they are awesome.
Sure they have good close combat henchmen. But not the best. Wardogs are good and cheap but only when fighting on ground level - they can't climb cause the are animals. Also they don't exp but that is not a problem considering their cost and stats. Flagellants are also good but limited weapon selection is a real drawback. So you see - two henchmen groups with only ONE attack (but powerful one) on the start. When speaking about zealots, saying that they belong to the "best" is exagerration. Everythin I wrote about them still applies.
Quote :
I also played my WH with crossbow heroes ( also my priest got one after an increase of BS).
I see everyone uses wh crossbows combo but I like to avoid it. The reason, why so many players choose shooty wh is one, I think. It is a lack of henchmen group with reasonable BS, that could support them with shooting - not because they are so awesome with crossbows. They are not bearjagers.
And at last - you have to PAY for BUYING another warriors. But that doesn't metter since my group agreed on max cap size of 15 for WH.
Well I love them too and, and one of reasons I'm so dissapointed on zealots is that I also have some nice miniatures - I spent a lot of time on converting and it would be cool to use them. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 13:18

catachanfrog wrote:
Sure they have good close combat henchmen. But not the best. Wardogs are good and cheap but only when fighting on ground level - they can't climb cause the are animals. Also they don't exp but that is not a problem considering their cost and stats. Flagellants are also good but limited weapon selection is a real drawback. So you see - two henchmen groups with only ONE attack (but powerful one) on the start. When speaking about zealots, saying that they belong to the "best" is exagerration. Everythin I wrote about them still applies.
Yep, but in my experience, Ini-2 Orcs seldom climb around, too ... Wink
And when the fast, furry Skaven show off and start to climb skyscrapers, what is it to you? Stay in cover, hide, so they cannot shoot you, and when they come into close combat, smash them with Flagellants before letting the hounds chew them up. Smile

Zealots are meant to be worthless rabble, what do you expect? If you do not like them, do not take them. If you do not like the sound of two Flagellants with 'only' one Attack each, take the money you just saved by dropping Zealots and double your Flagellants. Problem solved. Razz

catachanfrog wrote:

I see everyone uses wh crossbows combo but I like to avoid it. The reason, why so many players choose shooty wh is one, I think. It is a lack of henchmen group with reasonable BS, that could support them with shooting - not because they are so awesome with crossbows. They are not bearjagers.
Exactly - and every Witch Hunter warband whose shooting can eventually compete with Reiklanders or Elves has developed this ability - in the beginning of a campaign, everything shooty about Witch Hunters is a few crossbow bolts per round to cover the advance of the close combattants.
Effective shooting is for a later campaign phase.

catachanfrog wrote:
And at last - you have to PAY for BUYING another warriors. But that doesn't metter since my group agreed on max cap size of 15 for WH.
Aye, and you GET what you PAY for - for example, rabble at premium prices; money which would better be spent elsewhere. Wink
The increase to 15 men max might as well prove a bad decision - because now you have the same amount of money to spent on more people and, in addition, get less money for the Treasures / Wyrdstone you sell.

My advice: Instead of demanding the system to change, adapt to it. Neither Mordheim itself nor the Witch Hunters are "broken" (who defines that, anyway?), and neither needs "fixing".
Witch Hunters are designed to be a small elite core that evolves in the long run (the heroes), protected by a handful of heavy hitters (Flagellants) and / or a mobile strike force (Warhounds), with a bit of cannon fodder at the front (guess who); they will never be or feel like the horde of a Skaven warband nor will they have the tactical flexibility of the Mercenaries.

The tactical role of each henchman in a Witch Hunter warband is quite defined, aye - the possibilities for customising and individualising the warband lie with the heroes (and with hired swords / guns; did you notice the broad selection that Witch Hunters enjoy in that category?).
If this is boring to you, fine - in my opinion, there are no such things as 'boring' warbands, only warbands that are played boringly. Smile

But if you really want more Zealots (the argument about the conversions trumps every argument the rules can cough up Razz), maybe use the rules for Reiklanders or Middenheimers instead of Witch Hunters. Warhounds you can buy as equipment for the heroes later, Flagellants you can emulate (although without their special rules, of course, but then you have a broader selection of weapons) and the 'Zealots' get better statistics to boot.
Rules are only one element of the game, after all, and if people play Reiklanders as Elves, why not Witch Hunters, too? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 13:33

catachanfrog:
Quote :
crossbow "spam" loaths me

I completely agree.

Probably why my Witch Hunters never do that good. I focus on some shooting with flagellant HTH power.

Again, if you make your heroes to be shooters, why bother with the hate spellcaster stuff?

That special HTH hate rule and the way they play best, shooting, have nothing in common!!!

The whole problem is they just got the "Witch Hunter Warband" name wrong

and mixed up with the "Armoured-Crossbow-Quickshot" Warband.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 17:01

Quote :
That special HTH hate rule and the way they play best, shooting, have nothing in common!!!

The whole problem is they just got the "Witch Hunter Warband" name wrong

and mixed up with the "Armoured-Crossbow-Quickshot" Warband.
Well said.

Mephysto - You seem to agree, that the only effective way to play witch hunters is crossbow spam.
Quote :
And when the fast, furry Skaven show off and start to climb skyscrapers, what is it to you? Stay in cover, hide, so they cannot shoot you, and when they come into close combat, smash them with Flagellants before letting the hounds chew them up. Smile
Well, STAYING in cover = no progress and giving initiative to enemy. Situation you describe means very good positioning and counting for charging first - which is very, very hard considering skaven I4 and M5/6. Skaven always have superior numbers comparing to my warband (and currently I reached maximum size of 12) and my 1 attack flagellants, and hounds will be easily bogged down by numbers. Horde armies always have advantage of heaving cheap warriors, and flagllants are not that hard to survive 2 on 1 combat with only one atack. Especially when they have 50% chances to miss.

Quote :
Zealots are meant to be worthless rabble, what do you expect? If you do not like them, do not take them. If you do not like the sound of two Flagellants with 'only' one Attack each, take the money you just saved by dropping Zealots and double your Flagellants. Problem solved. Razz

No problem is not solved Crying or Very sad Flagellant with a weapon is 55 while zealot with, lets say, 2 maces is 26. 2 zealots in this combination, are not enough to buy a single armed flagellant! And I'm afraid that 2 zealots with 2 attacks each, can do more than a single flagellant. And the circle is closed: I don't want to take them because they are sh#t!

Quote :
Aye, and you GET what you PAY for - for example, rabble at premium prices; money which would better be spent elsewhere. Wink
The increase to 15 men max might as well prove a bad decision - because now you have the same amount of money to spent on more people and, in addition, get less money for the Treasures / Wyrdstone you sell.
I don't think it is a bad decision. Better to have an option to buy more warriors than don't. Take a look on the wyrdstone selling chart - the difference betwen 10-12 warriors and 13-15 is 5 gc (1-4 wyrdshards) and 10 gc (5+wyrdshards)... Does 5-10gc per exploration makes witch hunters better. I say no.

Quote :
My advice: Instead of demanding the system to change, adapt to it. Neither Mordheim itself nor the Witch Hunters are "broken" (who defines that, anyway?), and neither needs "fixing".
None of GW games I played was/is balanced. But that doesn't matter. Mordheim is broken in some ways. Just look at the shortbow/sling/repeater crossbow. Why skaven have 6 heroes? why undead are punished for beeing undead, by items such as holy water or garlic (not mentioning their warband effective setting)? why possessed can't do a decent list with all heroes? why damn orcs have T4 and are so cheap (sorry, but experience thaught me that T4 is veeeery powerful)?. there are also rules that are weird: armour, parrying...
And finally - I choose witch hunters because I like them. I'am unfortunately very serious about moddeling and background - when I play witch hunters I make witch hunters. Reiklanders are my next project Very Happy
Thank's for opinion Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Fri 13 Jan 2012 - 19:01

catachanfrog wrote:
Mephysto - You seem to agree, that the only effective way to play witch hunters is crossbow spam.
Oh, on the contrary. If "a few crossbow bolts per round to cover the advance of the close combattants" sounds like a warband worthy of the attributes "Shooty" or "Crossbow-spam", obviously our definitions diverge. Wink

catachanfrog wrote:
No problem is not solved Crying or Very sad Flagellant with a weapon is 55 while zealot with, lets say, 2 maces is 26. 2 zealots in this combination, are not enough to buy a single armed flagellant! And I'm afraid that 2 zealots with 2 attacks each, can do more than a single flagellant. And the circle is closed: I don't want to take them because they are sh#t!
But it would be enough for three hounds. Which would be enough to support the two or three Flagellants you should already have. Wink

catachanfrog wrote:
I don't think it is a bad decision. Better to have an option to buy more warriors than don't. Take a look on the wyrdstone selling chart - the difference betwen 10-12 warriors and 13-15 is 5 gc (1-4 wyrdshards) and 10 gc (5+wyrdshards)... Does 5-10gc per exploration makes witch hunters better. I say no.
Do not forget, even with other warbands (even with Marienburgers! Wink) you can only have quality or quantity, never both (unless the campaign is in a really advanced state, but then there are enough other problems to worry about). Which is why raising the maximum amount of warriors does not solve anything here - if you do not have enough money to recruit twelve warriors you are happy with, how do you plan to recruit fifteen? Options and more options are not always the better thing, especially if they are purely theoretical options you cannot realise. And it is not that Witch Hunters would put you in desperate need of options.
Also, please do not misunderstand me: I do not say it necessarily is a bad decision. I say it may prove one - because it shifts your focus from equipping the warriors you have in the best possible way, maybe even to the point of pretending you could win a numbers race with the horde warbands (which you simply cannot, be it twelve or fifteen men you may field). Smile


The rest of my long (and even longer-winded Wink) response boils down to: More Flagellants, more Warhounds, less Zealots, less judging a warband on paper or its weakest henchman type alone. How the warband fares in battle depends more on yourself, your tactics and the Dice Gods' favour than on numbers and theories about Whats and Ifs. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 1:50

This is a really fine discussion.
Thanks to all allthough i do not agree to all posts.

i think in the end the warband setting is relevant but do not decide the war.

The most important thing is the post battle development. If this goes well every war band can be competitive.

And you have the option to send your WH into close combat, they are not really good at it but not worse than other human warbands. With pistols you can tweak their strength for example

In our group we weakened two weapon fight and quickshot. I play one hero as pistoleer, because of the nice model, so he fights in medium range. Thepriest

I don't use wyrdstone hunter much, but we didn't play a campaign in the long run yet. You can play with too many new warbands, what is so exciting for us.

I also read a lot about the skavens. Yeah in theory they are a damn strong band. 6 heroes, 20 as max number is a lot of fighting power. And not to forget the slings for everyone. Yeah they are very strong.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 5:56

actually i am quite amazed at the poor arguments in favor of what is plainly bad design.

that said, the FORM of the debate is civil. thats great.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 8:14

Witch hunters are a strong competitive warband. They have limited numbers to balance very powerful advantages. Primarily, five heroes with no youngbloods and one of the best henchmen choices in the game - Str 4, T 4, Ld10!. They are as tough and strong as a vampire, and you can have five of them!!

They are well balanced with the official bands. If you give them a significant bump (25% increase in numbers), what are you going to do to balance them? Replace two champions (witch hunters) with youngbloods? Or drop one champ and start them with four heroes (like dwarves)?
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Sat 14 Jan 2012 - 8:18

I think it is telling that you have not actually played them yet, catachanfrog. It is always a good idea to play with a warband some before altering them.
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PostSubject: Re: few words on Witch Hunters   Today at 8:27

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