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 A few clarifications, please

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Cervantes3773
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PostSubject: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 9:36

We've started our Mordheim league - so far we have Possessed, Marienburg, Skaven, and Undead, with potential for Averlanders and Dwarves.

A few questions came up as we played our first games:
1) Are possessed considered large targets? They don't have the rule, but are pretty tall. However, they're also on 25mm bases... We ruled no, but how do others play it?

2) Do you need LoS to charge? We played it as no, provided the model wasn't hidden. Is that correct?

3) Can you cast spells into CC?
3a) If I cast Lure of Chaos onto an enemy unit, what can I do with him that turn, before his first attempt to recover? Since I take control in the shooting phase, I'm guessing I could cast a spell or shoot a weapon?

4) Can you cast spells OUT of CC?

5) If I give my magister a bow, can he shoot and cast a spell in the same turn?

6) One of my mutants has the claw arm, he carries a sword in his other arm. He then got a second attack. Can he choose to allocate the second attack to the claw, or are the number of attacks in his profile limited to his weapon, THEN +1A for THE CLAW?

7) Speaking of dual wielding, we adopted the simple house rule that the offhand suffers a -1 to hit, added "Dual Wielder" as a combat skill which removes that, and halved the cost of armor (light, heavy, ithilmar, gromril). We're playing it that the -1 to hit applies to a +1A from an additional weapon, but not if the model has a base Attack of 2, or gets a +1 Attack from THE CLAW. Does that seem reasonable/appropriate?

Cool We were playing it that models with the same initiative value, after the first round of combat, go simultaneously. However, that does not appear to be correct. In fact, it appears that models will NEVER fight simultaneously, and that a dice-off or initiative value (in the event of two strikes first, etc) should be used to determine who goes first. Does that sound right to you guys?
8a) Models standing up from "knocked down" go dead-last, correct? Even after warriors with double-handed weapons? If some how, a combat has two models standing up, decide by dice/initiative value?
8b) If two models charge the same victi- er, enemy, and they have the initiative, do I decide who attacks first or do I roll?

9) Our dwarf player is having some trouble writing up an agreeable starting warband. He appears to covet starting with gromril weapons/armor, but then has a list with 2 heroes and 3 henchmen... not very tough. Any suggestions?


Thanks a bazillion!
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Cervantes3773
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 9:41

Addendum:

I originally banned Carnival of Chaos, but for a few reasons am considering allowing them. What are the generally accepted changes to make them more... reasonable?

Thanks again!
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 9:53

1 no for balance reasons. actually just remove the large target from ogre and mounted models as well. it gimps them too much

2 you must take an i test if you dont have los

3 dunno. rules are bugged. many groups rule that you can

4 same as above

5 no

6 if you have A1 on profile then you effectively have 2 attacks and then you must use 1 on each arm (ie one claw one sword). but if you have A2 on profile you have 3 attacks and so you can use 2 on claw and 1 on sword. this trend continues, so if you have A4 you can use 4 attacks with claw and only 1 on the sword

7 no dual wielding will still be the best. try -1 to hit on ALL attacks, shields 5+ save in CC, and +1 to injury rolls from great weapons. then all three options are viable.

8 yes always dice off when I is tied.

8a yes. always last

8b rules bugged. most people play that you can order your own attacks as you wish except for those who have lower I than enemy.

9 if you play rules as written, then always go for max heroes and then max henchmen. equipment can come later. kindd of sad about the rules as written, but thats how it plays out!

10 coc are buggy and op
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 10:59

Carnival: Our group found them enjoyable with two small changes:

-Drop / Completely change Nurgle's Rot. It's not fun in the long run. Search this forum for some simple nerfs and changes suggested by fans.

-Pestilence hits ALL models except for the caster, including friendly models. Daemons and models that ignore poison ignore the effect (which may mean that SOME of your members are immune, but most aren't.)
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Cervantes3773
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 13:23

Thanks for your answers, everyone!

Also, I can't find for the life of me the list of which Mercs Dwarves can hire (aside from no elves, and the Tilean Marksman is ok). Anyone know where that list is?
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 15:24

2)
Quote :
If you want a model to engage the enemy in
hand-to-hand combat then you must make a special
move called a charge. Without measuring the distance,
declare that your model is charging
and indicate which enemy model he is going to attack.
You can charge any opposing model if you can draw
an unobstructed line from your model to the target. If
your warrior wants to charge an enemy model within
4" that he can’t see (eg, because it is behind a corner)
but has not been declared as hidden, he must pass an
Initiative test to detect it.
If he fails the roll, your
model may not charge this turn, but may move his
normal distance, shoot and cast spells

3) The rules as written haven't clarified, if you can shoot in CC and most spells doesn't even the clarification, if the need a line of sight...
You should houserule it in your group.

6) we understood, that you "lose" one hand for the great claw. Now you have your profil attacks with your weapon and an additional with the claw.
A possessed has already two attacks with his hands and gets a third with the claw...
If the claw counts as a weapon than that means he had used before only one of his hand and the other was useless and is only after a mutation usable...

We liked the idea of the great claw as a special form of a weapon more and houseruled it this way (the possessed lose one profil attack if he gets this mutation, but may use the claw for his profile attacks).
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Mon 7 Nov 2011 - 20:00

Cervantes3773 wrote:

1) Are possessed considered large targets? They don't have the rule, but are pretty tall. However, they're also on 25mm bases... We ruled no, but how do others play it?
The possessed do not have the rule, so they are not large targets.

Cervantes3773 wrote:
3) Can you cast spells into CC?
Yes the spell will say it cannot be cast into CC if it can not.


Cervantes3773 wrote:
3a) If I cast Lure of Chaos onto an enemy unit, what can I do with him that turn, before his first attempt to recover? Since I take control in the shooting phase, I'm guessing I could cast a spell or shoot a weapon?
Correct

Cervantes3773 wrote:
4) Can you cast spells OUT of CC?

5) If I give my magister a bow, can he shoot and cast a spell in the same turn?

6) One of my mutants has the claw arm, he carries a sword in his other arm. He then got a second attack. Can he choose to allocate the second attack to the claw, or are the number of attacks in his profile limited to his weapon, THEN +1A for THE CLAW?
4) Generally, Yes. The spell description will note any exceptions.
5) No.
6) The player can allocate attacks as he wishes.

Cervantes3773 wrote:
7) Speaking of dual wielding, we adopted the simple house rule that the offhand suffers a -1 to hit, added "Dual Wielder" as a combat skill which removes that, and halved the cost of armor (light, heavy, ithilmar, gromril). We're playing it that the -1 to hit applies to a +1A from an additional weapon, but not if the model has a base Attack of 2, or gets a +1 Attack from THE CLAW. Does that seem reasonable/appropriate?
Yes.

Cervantes3773 wrote:
Cool We were playing it that models with the same initiative value, after the first round of combat, go simultaneously. However, that does not appear to be correct. In fact, it appears that models will NEVER fight simultaneously, and that a dice-off or initiative value (in the event of two strikes first, etc) should be used to determine who goes first. Does that sound right to you guys?
That is how we generally play. Simultaneous strikes do not exist in the rules.

8a) Models standing up from "knocked down" go dead-last, correct? Even after warriors with double-handed weapons? If some how, a combat has two models standing up, decide by dice/initiative value?
8b) If two models charge the same victi- er, enemy, and they have the initiative, do I decide who attacks first or do I roll?
8a) Yes.
8b) You decide.

Cervantes3773 wrote:
9) Our dwarf player is having some trouble writing up an agreeable starting warband. He appears to covet starting with gromril weapons/armor, but then has a list with 2 heroes and 3 henchmen... not very tough. Any suggestions?

I don't see this as a down side, but it is an either or. Either choose 4 heroes and some henchmen and fight or choose equipment and accept that you won't win any games for quite a while. Since survival is the measure of victory a player can always lose the minimum warriors and surrender.

If the player wants to start with equipment he should start with all 4 heroes and sacrifice one each game. The others make money, grow strong on underdog bonus and recruit henchmen. It is not a fun strategy to play or to play against but it will result in a strong warband over time.
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Tue 8 Nov 2011 - 5:57

Quote :
who strikes first
Normally, models fight in order of descending
Initiative with the highest striking first. If their
Initiatives are equal, roll a dice to see who strikes first.

If a model stood up in the Recovery phase of that
turn, then he will strike last irrespective of any other
circumstances.
Sometimes a model will be allowed to ‘strike first’ for
some reason. Most commonly this is because they
charged in that turn, but some equipment, skills and
spells produce the same effect. If only one model
‘strikes first’ then it does so and the remainder of the
combatants strike in Initiative order as described
above.
If there are several models who are each entitled to
‘strike first’, then they determine the order of combat
between themselves by Initiative, as described above.

Once all those that were eligible to ‘strike first’ have
fought, any other combatants fight in Initiative order
You can never decide, who strikes first. It is resolved by initiative or dice roll if they have equal initiative.
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Tue 8 Nov 2011 - 8:20

Saranor: We play the same way that Kurst does- two friendly models may choose which goes first.

Examples of when it does and doesn't work:

a. An enemy with I3 faces a friendly with I3. They roll off to see who goes first.

b. Two friendly models with I3 face off against an enemy with I2. The two friendly models choose which goes first, then the enemy goes after.

c. Two friendlies charge an enemy. One is a friendly hero with I4, the other is a friendly with I3. The hero with I4 must go first, he cannot defer to the slower warrior.

d. Two friendly models with I3 attack a model with I3. The owner's roll 1D6 for each model with I3, and attack in that order, highest to lowest. The two friendly models may not pick who goes first.


That's how we handle it, at least.
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Saranor
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Tue 8 Nov 2011 - 9:05

That is a good way to resolve the fighting order, but it is a houserule. A good one too, because you don't loose so many exp from henchmen who take enemies OOA.
We used it for a long period of time, but decided to skip it, to reduce our houserules.

The rules dont distinguish friendly and enemy models. Every model strikes after initiative and if some models have the same initiative they have to roll it.
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Tue 8 Nov 2011 - 14:17

I agree with Saranor. We play that friendly models must follow the rules for Initiative just like any other warriors. This means that we roll off if Initiatives are equal. This does mean that we lose some potential XP to henchmen that charge at the same time as heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Tue 8 Nov 2011 - 18:45

We've played that way for so long I had forgotten it wasn't a rule. I use that excuse a lot, but its true.

Some folks might benefit from heroes striking before henchmen, but playtable and I either wiff with the hero and kill with the henchman or the hero gets a knocked down result and its up to the henchman anyway.

Actually usually everyone misses and the hero goes OOA. lol!

I really like the house rule because it speeds up the game. Our roll offs seem to always produce a lot of ties.
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Tue 8 Nov 2011 - 19:54

I agree with VK - it doesn't add a sure thing at all. Do you let your hero go first, knock the opponent down, only to have the henchman finish him off, or do you have the henchman go first and hope you don't crit on the first try, killing him before the hero gets a chance?
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PostSubject: Re: A few clarifications, please   Today at 13:24

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