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 Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)

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PostSubject: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Fri 28 Oct 2011 - 14:42

Probably in some obvious place, but I was wondering how the interaction between these two work; whilst pistolier says you can fire in the same turn you reload, the specific way double barelled reload with tokens seems to make that factor pointless; the only interaction I can seem to see is firing both pistols at the same turn

Or would pistolier actually override the re-load at end of turn mechanic with double barrelled?

EDIT:
Seems that the same question applies to hunter and double barrelled =3c
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Fri 28 Oct 2011 - 16:01

Strictly speaking (as per the FAQ), Hunter only affects handguns and long rifles.

Pistolier affects pistols of any kind, but does not actually affect reloading times per se, it simply allows you to fire two pistols in the same turn (if armed with a brace). Double barrelled pistols only fire once, but do two hits if they hit. So in that instance a brace of them can be fired in the same turn (for a potential of four hits).

Also note that the Pistolier rules specify that 'the normal reloading rules apply' when firing a brace.

It is a bit of a mine-field though....
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Fri 28 Oct 2011 - 16:50

The hunter edit was more in relation to double barrelled handguns: the thing that confused me was firing in the same turn it reloaded; it seems that pistolier/hunter has no effect on double barrelled single weapons at all, given their "normal" reload mechanism.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 17:25

In the context of reloading we made it that Pistoleer and hunter both had the same effect i.e. they both allowed you to fire a weapon on the turn you finished loading it.

Pistol/rifle without pistoleer/hunter:
Turn 0: Fire!, Turn 1: Reload, Turn 2: Fire!

Pistol/rifle without pistoleer:
Turn 0: Fire!, Turn 1: Reload; Fire!

Double-barreled pistol/rifle without pistoleer/hunter
Turn 0: Fire!, Turn 1: Reload barrel 1, Turn 2: Reload barrel 2, Turn 3: Fire!

Double-barreled pistol/rifle with pistoleer/hunter
Turn 0: Fire!, Turn 1: Reload barrel 1, Turn 2: Reload barrel 2; Fire!

Double-barreled pistol brace without pistoleer
Turn 0: Fire!; Fire!, Turn 1: Reload barrel 1, Turn 2: Reload barrel 2, Turn 3: Reload barrel 3, Turn 4: Reload barrel 4, Turn 5:Fire!

Double-barreled pistol brace with pistoleer
Turn 0: Fire!; Fire!, Turn 1: Reload barrel 1, Turn 2: Reload barrel 2,
Turn 3: Reload barrel 3, Turn 4: Reload barrel 4; Fire! Fire!

So, as you can see, in each case the relevant skill takes one turn of the total reloading time.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 18:47

How come with Pistolier and brace you made the pistol reload slower than normal? Normally you can reload one barrel on each pistol with pistolier: you put down 4 tokens, 2 colours, and remove 1 token of each colour reach reload

The confusion comes from the fact the rule also states that you reload at the closing phase of the shooting round =X
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 20:17

Where is the rule that states you reload at the closing phase of the shooting round? Is that in an FAQ or something? I can't seem to find it.

All pistoleer lets you do is fire on the same turn you relaod, it
doesn't let you reload any faster, nor does it let you relaod two
pistols at once. Indeed, by RAW if you have a brace of pistols you can't fire either of them on the turn you reload.

It says it takes a whole turn to reload a pistol and I don't seem to be able to find anything that lets one reload two pistols at once.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 20:28

It's the rules for double-barrelled weapons O_o

http://cianty.ashtonsanders.com/nc/pdf/nc-03-04-nuln.pdf
3rd page
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 20:50

Ah, that is why the confusion - the rules in there are completely different to the ones in Ostlanders Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 20:52

Any idea which came second? XD
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 21:19

Oh, definitely the Nuln ones. In any case I like them better, so I think I will use those.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 21:49

But yeah, it seems that pistolier does nothing with the Nuln ones apart from 2 shots in one round
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sat 29 Oct 2011 - 21:50

Here's the one from the ol' Specialist Games Forum. Written by an outsider, but was approved by DaBank, who was a sanctioned rule mod. (meaning, it's as official as you can still get in this game)

~~~~~~~~~~~``

PISTOL FAQ
by Pete ‘MordainThade’ Rejowski
{A post from the Special Games Rules Discussion forum, on
reloading of Pistols and Double-Barreled Pistols…}
A model with only a Pistol fires on turns 1, 3, 5, etc...
nothing to help him reload his guns, no other guns. The
Pistol will only be available for HtH on the turns that
he could fire in.
[Note] The HtH references are for the beginning of the
model's own turn; if he fired his guns, and is at the end of his
pattern (that is, at the 111 stage), he will not have any guns
available for HtH unless marked with a *, in which case he
will have one barrel from one gun. HtH availability will alter
depending on where the model is in his firing pattern.
A model with a Brace fires once every turn. He fires
once per turn, and fires gun #2 while reloading #1,
switching that up each turn of firing. Optionally, he can
fire only once every other turn, keeping alternating
between one and two Pistols available for HtH combat
during each of his turns.
A model with one Pistol and Pistolier fires every turn,
as if he had a Brace, because he can reload one barrel
and fire the same turn. The Pistol will be available for
HtH every one of his turns.
Pistolier with a Brace fires both turn one, then one on
turn 2, 3, 4, etc... as the RR states that he can load and
fire a single pistol per turn; owning a Brace only
matters for a single turn of double-firing. Of course, if
the model doesn't fire at all the turn after he fired both,
he will be able to fire both again on his turn 3, making it
double-shots on turns 3, witht the option to start singlefiring
on turn 4 or waiting to double-fire again on turn
5, etc... If the model did not shoot at all in the previous
turn, he will have both Pistols available for HtH;
otherwise, he will always have only one available.
Double-Barreled Pistols (herein shortned to DB-Pistol)
are much more complex. I will assume that a model
cannot fire out of one barrel and load the other barrel
from the same gun simultaneously unless he has
Pistolier, which is moot, seeing as how a Pistolier can
load and fire the same barrel; this affects the non-
Pistoliers with DB-Pistols. This has never been touched
upon by the powers-that-be, though I see this as a good
thing for balance. If not, a single DB-Pistol is effectively
as good as a normal Brace of Pistols for shooting, and
possibly better in HtH, and that doesn't seem balanced.
Assuming that this is the case:
A single DB-Pistol gives a model two shots his first turn
of firing. He then has to reload one barrel per turn, and
can't reload a gun that he is using to fire; thus, he then
gets single shots on turns 3, 5, etc. Optionally, the
model can choose not to fire on turn 3 as well, getting
double-shots on turn 4, reloading one turn 5, and
getting the option to fire turn 6 or wait and double-fire
on turn 7. To spell out his options, it goes like this:
A) 2, 0, 1, 0, 1, etc.
B) 2, 0, 0, continue as any option or repeat
C) 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, etc.
D) 1, 1, 0, 0, continue as option A - C.
Any turn after one 0, the model has a single barrel
available for HtH; any turn after two 0's, he has both for
HtH.
*
A Brace of DB Pistols is crazy enough. Again, I'm gonna
type out his number of shots over consecutive turns...
When he is firing only one shot per turn in consecutive
turns, he is firing one barrel of one gun and reloading
one barrel on the other; one gun is empty each turn.
Also, all options have any number of 1-shot turns
before they start the pattern with the 2-shot turn.
A) 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc.
B) 2, 2, 0, continue as any option or repeat.
C) 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc.
D) 2, 1, 0, continue as any option or repeat.
E) 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, etc.
HtH options are pretty crazy, and there is no easy way
to type it out (it all depends on what turn HtH starts
and which option was used). You'll have to figure that
out on a case-by-case basis.
*
Pistolier with a DB-Pistol gives you both barrels the first
turn, then one barrel afterwards each turn; you can skip
a turn of firing to be able to fire both barrels together.
The model will have one barrel for HtH every turn; if
he skipped firing in the previous turn, he will have
both.
*
Pistolier with a brace of DB-Pistols... this is gonna be
hellish. An option with a * means that the model is
always keeping one gun loaded with one barrel, and
thus can load the other barrel on that gun for 1 gun + 2
barrels for the purposes of HtH or getting a two-shot
turn once the 111 pattern starts. Any HtH before the
111 pattern starts, or any other HtH capabilities are too
complex for me to type.
Assuming you want to be shooty, use any option
between A and G; the ones afterward are assuming that
you want your pistols for early HtH. Also, all options
can have any number of 1-shot turns before they start
the pattern with the multi-shot turn (again, useful for
early HtH).
A) 4, 1, 1, 1, etc.
B) 4, 0, 3, 1, 1, 1, etc.
C) 4, 0, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc.
D) 4, 0, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc. *
E) 3, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc.
F) 3, 1, 1, 1, etc. *
G) 3, 0, continue with any option or repeat
H) 2, 3, 1, 1, 1, etc.
I) 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc.
J) 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc. *
So, that about sums up what you would be able to do in
my group's campaigns. There are still the two possible
gray-areas with Pistols, with my answers (like so):
1) If a model owns a Brace of Pistols (both of which
were emptied) and is using Pistolier to load-and-shoot a
single Pistol, can he load a barrel on the other pistol?
(No)
2) If a non-Pistolier model owns a DB-Pistol that has one
barrel loaded, can he fire that barrel and load the other
in the same round? (No)
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sun 30 Oct 2011 - 3:41

Sooo, what happens with two braces of DB pistols and pistolier (sorry)
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Sun 30 Oct 2011 - 8:46

Basically the same as with a single brace, except that you can use one as an effective 'one use' brace beforehand. You could of course reload both, but it would take four turns after emptying all eight barrels.

Now I think about it a bit more, you could use the second brace to 'add' shots to the firing options above, up to four a turn and four in total before you need to reload.

I'm sure you work out all the possible permutations, but personally it would be easier to use counters as the Nuln rules suggest (though you would potentially need four different types for the four pistols).
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Mon 31 Oct 2011 - 9:41

I think it would basically be the exact same as one of the "Pistolier with 2 DB pistols", except you can replace one round with 4 shots from your other brace.

EX.
B) 4, 0, 3, 1, 1, 1, etc.
becomes
B) 4, 4, 3, 1, 1, 1, etc.

-Because on the second turn, he switches to the second brace. However, it has little effect in the long run, as 2 sets of pistols doesn't mean you reload faster.

The only other advantage is that it a pistol misfires and explodes, you have a back-up ready to use on the battlefield.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Mon 31 Oct 2011 - 9:49

Definately going to have to buy a set of double dualing pistols (I take it there are no double warplocks!) because in my last game I found a peddler for -2 rarity and 20% cost; rolling two wounds just seems to trump 5str, especially with +1 to hit already;

So a normal brace of pistols with pistolier gives 2 0 2 0 2, if you had two braces it would only be 2 2 0 2 0 2?
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Mon 31 Oct 2011 - 10:55

Pistolier has 2 effects:
1. If lets you fire 2 barrels at once in the shooting phase.
2. It lets you fire one or more barrels, and lets you reload ONE barrel afterwards.

X - If you don't have pistolier, you may only reload a gun if you DIDN'T fire it this turn- so you must either have a spare pistol, or take a turn off from shooting.

+ - The rule Pistolier is only required for shooting in the SHOOTING phase- no current rules stop a model from pulling out 2 guns in hand to hand. However, guns only last in the first round- once exhausted, you can't switch to your second brace until you leave combat.

So, 1 gun without pistolier is:
1 0 1 0 1 0

2 guns WITHOUT pistolier would be:
1 1 1 1 1 1 (can't double fire without pistolier, remember?)

1 Gun with pistolier is
1 1 1 1 1 1

2 Gun with pistolier is
2 1 1 1 1 1

4 guns with pistolier is:
2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1

(btw, 4 guns WITHOUT pistolier is still 1 1 1 1, so no sense even bothering, unless you want to plan ahead!)

These numbers can be switched around, of course- So, a 2 gun-bearing pistolier can hold off and fire, "1 1 2 1 1 1" if he wants, saving his double shot for a good occasion. Or, he may save a shooting phase, and reload an extra barrel: 2 0 2 1 1 1 1
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PostSubject: Re: Double Barrelled Pistols + Pistolier (and maybe hunter)   Today at 7:16

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