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 Alternate Pirate warband

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Youngblood
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PostSubject: Alternate Pirate warband   Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 19:21

So still bored at work and loioking at an alternate take for an Pirate Warband. I like the list from Town Cryer and I've seen the Sartosa stuff and fell they play pretty well but don't like the clunky mechanics for the Swabbies that both share. I've tried to go with a more streamlined concept here. It is in a very early design stage so any advise or comments are greatly appreciated.

Pirates Warband


Along the coasts and River byways of the old world shipping is a major industry with millions of Crowns of goods being sent all around the Empire and Bretonia. With all that wealth ripe for the plucking some unscrupulous individuals will turn to less than legal means to acquire cargo.

Many a merchant or navy captain has found himself at the end of the sword of his own crew when they decide they have a better use for the ship they are sailing on. From the safe haven of the Sartosian islands to the merchant city of Marienburg these cutthroats operate outside the control of the Empire and Bretonia preying on any ship that comes under their sight. When the lure of treasure is great enough they will even venture further inland.

Choice of warriors
A Pirate warband must include a minimum of three models. You have 500 gold crowns to recruit your warband. The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.

Pirate Captain: Each Pirate warband must have one Pirate Captain, no more, no less!
Master of Arms: Your warband may include a single Master of Arms if you wish.
Mates: Your warband may include up to two Mates.
Cabin Boy: Your warband may include a single Cabin Boy if you wish.
Gunners: Your warband may include up to five Gunners.
Sailors: Your warband may include any number of Sailors.
Scurvy Dogs: No more than half your warband can be composed of Scurvy Dogs.

A Pirate Captain starts with 20 experience.
A Master of Arms starts with 12 experience.
Mates start with 8 experience.
A Cabin Boy starts with 0 experience.
Henchmen start with 0 experience.

SPECIAL RULES
Fence: During the Post Battle sequence a Pirate warband can attempt to sell its treasure or Wyrdstone to one of their contacts. If you so roll a d6 and consult the below table:
1 – 2 Bad Deal: You count as trading in one less treasure for determining income.
3 – 4 Fair Trade: No effect.
5 – 6 Good Deal: You count as trading in one addition treasure for determining income.
7+ Hot Item: As Good Deal above. In addition your contact gives you a deal on an item he needs to get rid of very quickly, you may subtract 4d6 from the cost (to a minimum of 1 gc) of any one rare item you purchase during the current post game sequence.


STARTING EQUIPMENT LIST


Pirate Weapons
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger (1st free) 2 gc
Hook 3 gc
Club 3 gc
Hammer 3 gc
Axe 5 gc
Main Gauche * 7 gc
Cutlass (Sword) 10 gc
Spear 10 gc
Rapier * 15 gc
Boat Hook 15 gc
Cat O’Nine Tails * 15 gc
Missile Weapons
Harpoon 25 gc
Crossbow 25 gc
Pistol 15 gc (30 gc for Brace)
Armour
Toughened Leathers 5 gc
Shield 5 gc
Buckler 5 gc
Helmet 10 gc
Miscellaneous
Rope and Hook 5 gc
Pet Parrot/Monkey 50 gc
Gunner Weapons
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger (1st free) 2 gc
Hook 3 gc
Club 3 gc
Hammer 3 gc
Axe 5 gc
Cutlass (Sword) 10 gc
Boat Hook 15 gc
Missile Weapons
Crossbow 25 gc
Pistol 15 gc (30 gc for Brace)
Handgun 35 gc
Deck Gun 80 gc
Armour
Toughened Leathers 5 gc
Helmet 10 gc
Miscellaneous
Rope and Hook 5 gc

Press Ganged
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger (1st free) 2 gc
Hook 3 gc
Club 3 gc
Boat Hook 15 gc
Missile Weapons
None
Armour
None
Miscellaneous
Rope and Hook 5 gc

* Heroes Only


SPECIAL EQUIPMENT


Hook
Cost: 3 gc, Availability: Common
A hook is a common sight around Pirate ships and when necessary will be used by the crew as an impromptu weapon. It is also common is to see a crew member who has lost a hand replace it with a hook.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat As User +1 Armor Save As good as a hand
As good as a hand: A Hook can be used to replace a hand lost to injury. Models armed with a hook hand may still gain the bonus attack for being armed with an additional weapon.

Boat Hook
Cost: 15 gc, Availability: Common
A common tool used on sailing vessels a boat hook resembles a spear with a hook attached just below the head. Normally used to assist in drawing a ships shore boats alongside to aid in recovery or to push off when launching, they will often be used during boarding actions to draw another ship closer to help attackers get onboard easier. In a pinch the hook can also be used to entangle a foe and trip him up giving a canny pirate a jump on his prone foe.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat As User - Strike First, Trip, Two Handed
Strike First: A warrior with a boat hook strikes first in the first turn of hand-to-hand combat.
Trip: A model armed with a boat hook may give up all their attacks to attempt to trip his opponent. Roll to hit as normal and if successful roll to wound versus initiative instead of toughness. If you wound, your opponent is automatically treated as knocked down no roll on the injury chart is required.
Two Handed: A model armed with a boat hook may not use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close combat.

Cat O’Nine Tails
Cost: 15 gc, Availability: Rare 6
The principle method of discipline on many pirate vessels fear of the lash is what keeps most of the less scrupulous hands in line. The Cat O’Nine Tails is a common scourge used by crew and is normally several pieces of ships cord, often threaded with small barbs and normally dipped in salt water so that the wounds will cause even greater pain than would be normal. The downside to this is that even light armor can severely limit the damage caused.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat as user +1 Armor Save Whipcrack, Can Not be Parried
Whipcrack: when the wielder charges they gain +1A for that turn. This bonus attack is added after any other modifications. When the wielder is charged they gain +1A that they may only use against the charger. This additional attack will ‘strike first’. If the wielder is simultaneously charged by two or more opponents they will still only receive a total of +1A. If the wielder is using two Cat O’Nine Tails at the same time then they get +1A for the additional hand weapon, but only the first Cat O’Nine Tails gets the whipcrack +1A.
Can Not be Parried: Due to the multiple lashes on the Cat O’Nine Tails opponents may not parry attacks from this weapon.

Harpoon
Cost: 25 gc, Availability: Rare 6
A simple fishing weapon in a trained fighters hands a Harpoon can be a truly fearsome weapon. Resembling a small javelin or spear a harpoon has several jagged back facing points that rip and tear flesh when removed. Even more ingenious is that the weapon will normally have a cord or line attached to the end so that the target can be hauled in by a sturdy enough wielder.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
8” As User - Thrown Weapon, Strikes First, Entangle, Versatile
Thrown weapon: Models using a harpoon do not suffer penalties for range or moving as the harpoon is perfectly balanced for throwing.
Strike First: A warrior with a harpoon strikes first in the first turn of hand-to-hand combat.
Entangled: The barbed point and strong line a harpoon is attached to allow the wielder to haul targets hit by the harpoon towards them. If you wound a target with the harpoon and they do not go out of action at the end of the turn you and your opponent may each roll a D6 and add your models Strength to the total. If you score higher may move the target model 2 inches towards the attacking model. If this causes the models to enter base to base contact, this will count as a charge for the attacker. The attacker may not use his harpoon in the subsequent close combat.
Versatile: A Harpoon can be used in both close combat and ranged weapon.

Deck Gun (Black Powder Weapon)
Cost: 80 + 4D6 gc, Availability: Rare 10
One of the most devastating weapon in any pirate’s arsenal, the deck gun is a small cannon that can be relatively easily moved around. Able to be loaded with a variety of ammunition types the most commonly used by pirates are either the solid cannon ball, or Grape Shot when the breach is loaded with piles of nails and other scrap so that the cannon unleashes a tide of Shrapnel similar to a blunderbuss only on a grander scale.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
48” Special - Ready Shot, Heavy, Rare , Ammo Type
Heavy: Deck Guns are very difficult to move. A model armed with a deck gun may never run and has their movement halved while carrying the deck gun. Any friendly model that begins its turn within 1” of the model armed with a deck gun may opt to assist in moving the gun. The helper gives up there movement for the turn and adds 1” to the distance the model with the deck gun may move up to their maximum movement. After moving the deck gun place any models that helped move the deck gun within 1” of the wielder.
Rare: Deck Guns are extremely expensive and difficult to maintain. No Warband may ever have more than one deck gun.
Prepare Shot: It takes a full turn to prepare to fire a deck gun. While preparing to fire a deck gun a model may not move or make any ranged or close combat attacks. At the end of the turn declare which type of ammo you are loading from the option below. In any subsequent turn you may make a ranged attack with the appropriate ammo type after which you must prepare another shot.
Ammo Type: When preparing a shot for the deck gun you must select one of the two types of shot below. You may begin the game with one of the two shot types loaded however must declare this when deploying the model with the deck gun.

Grape Shot: When your model fires the Deck Gun draw a line 20" long and 1" wide in any direction from the firer (the line must be absolutely straight). Any and all models in its path are automatically hit by a Strength 5 hit.

Solid Shot: When your model fires the Deck Gun mark a point on within the deck guns range as the target point and roll a D6:
1 – 2 Short: Move the point 2d6 – BS inches straight back towards the deck gun.
3 – 4 On Target: Leave the point where it is
5 – 6 Long: Move the point 2d6 – BS Inches straight ahead from the deck gun

Any model struck by the initial impact will take a strength 8 hit. After establishing where the shot lands roll 3D6 to determine how far the shot bounces. Move the marker in a straight line away from the Deck Gun and any model in the path is struck for a Strength 4 hit. Models in the path of the bounce may attempt to roll under their initiative to avoid being hit. If the Cannon ball encounters any blocking terrain during its bounce it will be immediately halted.

Pet Parrot/Monkey
Cost: 50 + 2d6 gc, Availability: Rare 8
Many Pirates will take it in mind to train a pet to amuse them during long voyages. Often they will take a true shine to this pet and have it follow them everywhere including into battle where the pet can be used as a timely distraction to an unsuspecting foe or to warn the owner of approaching foes.
At the start of the Close Combat phase select one enemy model engaged in Close Combat and reduce their attack characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1). In addition add one to the distance at which you can detect hidden models.


HEROES


1 Pirate Captain
60 Gold Crowns to Hire
Whether a gentleman pirate or a heartless cutthroat a Captain must be able to lead his crew to profit and plunder to maintain his standing. For many Pirates this means staying one step ahead of the authorities who would like nothing more than to clap the whole crew in irons and send them to the deepest darkest prison they can find.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8

Weapons/Armour: A Pirate captain may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

Special Rules
Leader: Any models in the warband within 6" of the Pirate Captain may use his Leadership instead of their own.

0 – 1 Master of Arms
45 Gold Crowns to Hire
Normally the Captain’s most trusted crew member will be given the role of maintaining the ships armory. On a ship quality weapons can mean the difference between a successful mutiny and a long walk off a short plank of wood. A Master of Arms will also generally have a greater degree of military training and will often be the best fighter amongst the crew after the captain himself.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7

Weapons/Armour: A Master of Arms may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

Special Rules
Weapons Master: The Master of Arms starts with the Weapons Training Skill

0 – 2 Mates
35 Gold Crowns to hire
The senior crew members on a ship hold great power over the rest of the crew. Normally entitled to a greater share of any plunder and the trust of the captain they are his eyes and ears ensuring that discipline is maintained. For some the power can lead to a mentor role, for others they control the crew through terror and intimidation a Cat O’Nine always handy.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armour: A Mate may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

0 – 1 Cabin Boy
15 Gold Crowns to Hire
The lure of a life at sea has got the attention of many young men. For most it leads to a career serving on a merchant vessel or in the navy. For some young men however the larcenous life of the pirate is far more appealing. When these youths show a modicum of talent they will often be given additional duties with the senior officers.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 6

Weapons/Armour: A Cabin boy may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.


HENCHMEN (Bought in Groups of 1-5)


Sailors
25 Gold Crowns to hire each
The vast majority of crew on a ship will be made up of naval deserters and merchant sailors who have given up the respectable life they knew before for a life of larceny and adventure on the high seas.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armour: Sailors may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

0 – 5 Gunners
30 Gold Crowns to hire each
More experienced crew may be given the responsibility of caring for the ships cannons and supply of black powder. This can be an especially dangerous duty as one errant spark can cause the entire ship to go up.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armour: Gunners may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Gunner Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Powder Monkey: Gunners train extensively in the use of guns and pistols and may use any black powder weapon they acquire.

Scurvy Dogs
15 Gold Crowns to hire each
When a pirate needs to recruit new crew they don’t always find willing volunteers lining up for the chance to sail. When the need for crew members is truly great they may begin to haunt waterside taverns and brothels looking for drunks that they can strong arm into joining the crew. If that doesn’t work than there is always the option of a quick club to the back of the head and a trip to the harbor in a sack to get the new “recruit” settled into his new life at sea.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 2 2 3 3 1 2 1 5

Weapons/Armour: Scurvy Dogs may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Press Ganged Equipment list.
SPECIAL RULES
Press Ganged: Scurvy dogs are not serving on the crew by choice and do not have any ambition except to escape. Scurvy Dogs can never gain experience for any reason.
Down Trodden: Conditions on a ship are not the best especially for the dregs that are normally found serving against their will. When rolling to see if a Scurvy Dog survive injuries during the post game sequence they are removed from the roster on a 1 – 3 rather than 1 – 2 as normal.



PIRATE SKILL TABLE
Combat Shooting Academic Strength Speed Special
Pirate Captain X X X X X X
Master of Arms X - - X X X
Mates X - - - X X
Cabin Boy - X - - X X

Special Skills
Pirate Heroes with access to special skills may choose to use the following Skill list instead of any of the standard Skill tables available to them.


Blackheart: The pirate has earned a reputation for being a heartless monster and the terror of the high seas, whether this reputation is well earned or not is another question. This model now causes fear.

Master Gunner: Training in the use of the ships cannons and guns has given this Pirate a comfortable familiarity with Black Powder weapons. The Pirate may use any Black Powder Weapon, not just those listed on his equipment list. In addition when rolling for scatter with a solid shot the warrior may double his ballistic skill

Master of the Tops: This Pirate is agile as monkey quickly scampering up the rigging of a ship. If equipped with a Rope and Hook this warrior automatically passes all climbing checks. In addition when making a diving charge if equipped with a rope and hook you may re-roll any failed initiative checks.

Panache: A true master of the sword and always ready with a witty quip, this warrior makes short work of his foe in most fights. The Warrior may add +1 to attempts to parry attacks. This will allow the warrior to parry an attack roll of 6.

Quarter Master: This pirate is responsible for supplying the ship while in port. His network of contacts allows him to get the best price when attempting to trade for supplies. Only one model can benefit from this skill in a turn, add one to the result when rolling on the Fence table.

Jon Schmidt
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 22:05

Sounds viable. You have a better-than-average hero mix, but nothing extra special about the henchies. What do you see balancing out the strong hero mix?
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 9:28

Cost and starting experience should balance. The only one with a different profile from the starting Mercs is the Master of Arms who for an extra 10 points over a starting champion gets +1 Initiative and a skill to start. However he also has 4 extra experience points which means he loses out on those available upgrades. Should work to keep it in balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 10:40

Well, the average hero distribution = Captain, 2 x champions, 2 x youngbloods.

You have captain, 3 x champions, and 1 x youngblood.

I would agree that your third champion is balanced with the other champions (the four extra eps = a fixed upgrade), but you still have a better than average mix of heroes overall.

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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 15:33

I think the average henchmen and the fact that their heroes have an overall high-ish starting exp should balance it out. A Youngblood is good partially due to the rapid growth and customization available.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 16:23

BalrogTheBuff wrote:
I think the average henchmen and the fact that their heroes have an overall high-ish starting exp should balance it out. A Youngblood is good partially due to the rapid growth and customization available.

I agree.

Also, bland mercenaries have better special rules than the fence (which is basically neither good or bad untill you have the skill for it), their champions and captain could have +1 strength.

I fricking love the equipment. The Boat Hook is everything it should have been, and the Harpoon is even better. I want to make a warband full of whalers and hunt some white whales when I see this list. I think actually making a whalers crew, much like this list for Sartosa isn't a bad idea.
I also like what you did with the deck-gun.

I dislike what you did with the Parrot though, as I think it needs a nerf in a whole other direction than being a defensive item.

A sample starting warband would probably be something like this:
Cpt Black - Harpoon, Cat o' Nine tails, Rope and Hook Free Dagger 105
Master At Arms - Rapier, Rope and hook, Free Dagger 65
Mate - Boat Hook, Free dagger, club 53
Mate - Crossbow, Axe, Rope and Hook, Free dagger 70
Cabin Boy - Mace, Free dagger 18
--- 311
Gunner - Deck Gun, Club, Rope and Hook Free Dagger 118
2x Scurvy Dogs, Mace Free dagger 36 (to help carry the big gun)
Gunner, Hammer, Free Dagger 33

All in all the warband will be about moving the big gun into position, keeping the movement at an acceptable level with the Scurvy Dogs who are basically there for that and to protect the expensive gunner in close combat.
The cpt, the Master and the Mate with a Crossbow will form the initial building sweepers, moving around at the higher levels untill the Deck Gun can be moved to a secure position where the Gunner can use it properly.

All in all this looks very cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 16:52

Balrog: "I think the average henchmen and the fact that their heroes have an overall high-ish starting exp should balance it out. A Youngblood is good partially due to the rapid growth and customization available."

Overall highish experience? The Captain is the standard (20) and the mates are standard for champs (Cool. The MoA starts at 12, so he is one advance past the champs (mates), and receives +1 initiative and the skill. Not a huge thing, but the extra four experience points certainly don't weaken him since he gains two advances for them.

Youngbloods and growth - it depends on the campaign. In a real cut-trhoat competitive campaign, i'd much rather have the extra-buffed third champ than a YB, since YBs tend to die before they reach their potential. In a less cut-throat campaign, I agree that YBs have the potential to become one of the more powerful henchmen.

The warband may be balanced overall, as is. But I do think the captain/3 champs/1 YB configuration is better than standard.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 23:55

Arrrgh! Mordheim just keeps getting better and better for pirates. Between the original warband, Sartosa, mweaver's warband, this warband and probably MiM there is no better time to hold a campaign with a focus on the high seas. I haven't had a chance to compare it to the other pirate warbands yet but I'm looking forward to it but if it gets master's preliminary tick of approval than that is a good start! Hmmm... I think that I fall into the category of running the risk of being killed by my wife if she knew just how much time I sink into this game! Neutral Laughing

Hopefully you get the opportunity to play test this warband sometime soon so that you can provide feedback on how it fares.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 7:42

Heroes: I agree with their concerns... too many strong heroes. I see 3 fixes:

A. make it:
1 Captain
0-1 Master of Arms
0-1 Mate (withn current rules)
0-2 Cabin Boys

OR
B
1 Captain
0-1 Master of Arms
0-3 Mate (with WS3, cost 30gc)

OR C
1 Captain
0-1 Master of Arms
0-2 Mate (with WS3, cost 30gc)
0-1 Cabin Boys

If going with model B or , you can probably give them Master of the Top for free, and still charge 30gc. Thus, the spread would be:
1 leader
1 champion
3 warriors (with a weak skill)

Not an unfair spread.

Or, if going with C (which is weaker still), instead of Master of the Top, let the mates take ANY of the Pirate Special skills.
So it'd be:
1 leader
1 champion
2 warriors (with a decent skill)
1 youngblood


Boat Hook: love the idea, but the "wound against initiative" doesn't make sense. Do you roll your strength vs. the model's initiative, your initiative vs. their initiative, or do they just take an initiative test?

Personally, I think that any spell/ability that auto-knocks down has to clarify what happens when you wound a knocked down model within multiple wounds. Does a successful wound take the model instantly out of action, or does he just lose a wound (going out if he loses his LAST wound?) Something to consider.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 8:04

I don't think the 3 big bad heroes is that big a deal, I mean Beastmen did it.

See it as these guys specialty over the mercenaries. Lose access to nice special rules and Duelling Pistols, get some other equipment and one of your youngbloods is exchanged for a champion.

However, looking over the Deck Cannon again, it is a hell of a weapon. Load it with grape shots and get it within 20" of almost anything spells doom for them. It can close down lanes pretty well, and as it can even move and fire it can do so relatively well. Sure you might only get one shot off but a super-blunderbuss is often worth that. I've seen warbands equip their warriors with Superior Blackpowder Blunderbusses just for that one S4 flame.

I think the Boat hook needs clarification as well, I'm assuming it was strength Vs Initiative, and that multiple wounds only lost one wound. In which case I see no problem allowing multiple attacks with it. It is a nice way to do something against tough opponents. It does make armour even more worthless, but that's hardly a balance problem anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 9:04

"I don't think the 3 big bad heroes is that big a deal, I mean Beastmen did it."

Yes, but they have a serious disadvantage that helps balance their strong hero mix and T4 - no shooting at all. With your warband you have:

Hero mix: more powerful than average
Henchman mix: average*
Character Stats: average
Shooting strength: slightly above average (good standard weapons mix + powerful harpoon; limited access to shooting skills)
Melee strength: above average (brilliant weapons mix, including rapiers and whips; wide access to combat skills)

In none of these areas are they seriously better than average, but it all adds up and I see nothing that balances these advantages.

*I put henchman as average, because I personally don't like cheap crappy henchmen like the Scurvy Dogs and would probably never recruit any. But some like sword fodder, and the Scurvy Dogs lend themselves to swarm tactics. On the whole I think your special rules for the SDs are well thought out and should make the swarm tactic weaker.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 11:44

What if the Sailors were also 0-5 and a total of 0-7 for sailors and gunners combined, with Gunners only having Ws2 but only being 25 gc? This would force them to have some Scurvy Dogs to get max size and would make them counter balance the slightly stronger heroes?
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 15:10

I assumed Strength verses Initiative for boat hook. Yes clarification is needed. Knocking down via boat hook should only cause one wound if the model recovers to standing. I'd hate to play dwarves against them! Very Happy

I personally would make the deck gun move or shoot. I think big guns would require effort to set up and aim after moving. This would tone down shooting.

Like the original pirates they don't have access to armour which is disadvantage.

If melee is above average then get rid of clubs, hammers and axes. They don't seem like pirate weapons to me. Keep clubs for press ganged models though.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 15:27

Clubs fit, on most ships of that time period they used a lot of improvised weapons that would count as clubs.

the big "Deck" Gun is what I think is the most unbalancing thing.
like above: Move or Shoot is good
the other thing I would say is reduce the range of the Grape Shoot... 20" for a path S5 weapon is insane... that you can reload! the Blunderbuss is a one shot weapon and is only half as good at best.
Maybe reduce the load time on it too; at least for Grape Shoot as it's not a cannon ball your loading but a ton of stuff.

oh got an idea just as i'm typing here that may work out well. Make it like the Blunderbuss where it starts the game loaded and is a 1 shoot per game weapon. BUT add an item:

Shot Bag: XX GC Common
A Shot Bag is loaded with extra shots for the Deck Gun allowing for it to be relaoded in the battle.
Special Rules:
Heavy: Same -1 movement as stated above for Deck Gun
Two man Load: It takes 2 men to load the Deck Gun, as such nether can do anything other then load it in a turn.

The result is in the turn you shot both people can shoot, but if you want to relaod the Deck Gun you need this other item and a 2nd man to follow it around to reload it.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 19:15

In answer to some of the above questions and comments.

Deck Gun remeber it is on a Henchmen with out a skill so it is very easy to lose when he dies. That being said it probably needs to be tweeked a bit and right now I'm leaning towards raising the cost to 90gc, reducing the strength of Grape shot to .

Boat Hook is meant to work as Str vs. Init. and I've added a line that if a model with multiple wounds is knocked down subsequent attacks in hand to hand hit automatically and roll to wound as normal. I'm also probably raising the cost to 20gc.

Harpoon is probably too cheap and will likely go to 30gc, may need to be heros only, and I'm thinking of only having entrangle work if the model is armed with rope and hook.

Parrot/Monkey will probably become heros only.

Hero selection may be a bit heavy (I think it may balance out in the end) but will look at dropping Mates to WS 3 and switching Strength sillls for Combat skills,

Otherwise from preliminary play it seems to work alright.

Jon
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 19:46

Yeah, after some play-testing you should have a better idea what tweaks are needed, if any.

It does sound like a fun band.

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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 21:57

I really like the idea of reworking the pirate warband. In its original form it is poorly written and introduces a number of cumbersome rules.

I like the idea of revising the boat hook and harpoon, although I think it would be simpler and more piratey to simply give pirates spears and retire the idea of the boat hook as a weapon.

I am baffled by the inclusion of the deck gun. The swivel gun is a perfectly piratey weapon with fairly reasonable rules. I would love to see chain shot disappear and grape shot be replaced with a Warhammer template so that it fit with Warhammer rules for swivel guns (General's Compendium and Warhammer Ahoy!).

We include cannons in several scenarios in our Sartosan and Karibbean campaigns, but require several crew to maintain a rate of fire or move the gun. Pirates used swivel guns in small raiding actions, but a cannon? And somehow its lost if the gunner is killed? I could see how a gun would be lost if a warband routs or if it explodes, but lost if one man is killed? Too abstract for me.

I'm curious as to what the Deck Gun is supposed to be. Both in reality and in the Warhammer/Mordheim world. At various times Warhammer fantasy and Warhammer Historical have had various sizes of cannon which are mostly defined by Strength. S 10 are the biggest cannons with S 6 and 7 being referred to as light guns and swivels at varying strengths of 3-5. In our pirate games we use the S 7 cannon to arm our warband's ships. Heavier cannon can be found in shore emplacements and on bigger ships. A S 8 gun is a bigger weapon. Too big to be lugged around.

Cost. Cannon are immensely expensive weapons. A rifle costs 200gc in the Mordheim economy. A cannon should cost 500 to 1000 gc.



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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Fri 7 Oct 2011 - 0:27

Von Kurst wrote:
We include cannons in several scenarios in our Sartosan and Karibbean campaigns, but require several crew to maintain a rate of fire or move the gun. Pirates used swivel guns in small raiding actions, but a cannon? And somehow its lost if the gunner is killed? I could see how a gun would be lost if a warband routs or if it explodes, but lost if one man is killed? Too abstract for me.

Well officially all equipment used in a battle or post battle must be assigned to a warband member and is lost if that warband member dies. This would cover deck guns and other equipment such as wagons. I think it is a good house rule though to assign these warband items to no one as you are implying and that is how we play.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Fri 7 Oct 2011 - 4:00

Hmm. I guess you could assign it to a henchman GROUP. If one of the group members dies, it just passes on to the next in the group (which means that you have to make sure that there's always a back-up member ready to take his place!)
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Fri 7 Oct 2011 - 4:43

What we have done is make the cannon part of the scenario not the warband. If you need one, you have one or two or whatever the scenario calls for. If you capture one you gain a reward in gold or plus one cannon in scenarios that allow cannon. We haven't allowed a cannon to fire grape because of the devestating nature of big area effect weapons in a skirmish game.

I prefer to use the Warhammer mechanics for cannon because I know the system and its somewhat consistent with Mordheim's design.

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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Fri 7 Oct 2011 - 10:23

I've tried to stay clear of bringing in to many of the Warhammer templates or dice into the game as I agree they are an elegant way of looking at the rules it means adding new dice and templates to Mordheim that haven't been previously used (not a problem if you play fantast or 40k but can be an issue for those who only play Mordheim). AS to what the Deck gun represents it would be a light cannon that would normally be moved around the deck of a ship dependant on where it was needed. Think of the gallop gun from the old Dogs of War line and you have the idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Fri 7 Oct 2011 - 18:48

In 5th edition warhammer Bronzino's Galloper guns were S5 24" range guns and they had a horse to move the gun.

As far as I know light guns that can be moved about a ship as needed were called swivel guns. Even 6 pdr guns were too heavy to move safely without a winch or block and tackle and lots of men. Swivel guns were used throughout the age of sail and were a favorite artillery piece for explorers into the 19th century. They can also be mounted on wagons, elephants and camels.

6th edition introduced zombie pirate Carronades which were S7 36" range guns. We use these as our ship cannon to make ship engagements interesting. We allow the cannon to be moved from one side of the ship to the other if a gun explodes, but not to be moved and fired in the same turn. We have used cannon in Sartosan games for years and it is fun. But we limit artillery a warband can use in every game to one swivel gun per warband, that works pretty good.

Of course this is your project and if your group has fun with this warband, by all means enjoy.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Sat 8 Oct 2011 - 4:10

Heh, for my Swivel Gunner warrior, I took a mix of Mercenary and marauder bits and actually have him CARRYING a full sized cannon on his own. Quite unrealistic, but looks beefy as heck, and their's no doubt which model has is carrying the swivel gun. pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Mon 2 Jan 2012 - 10:53

So we've now gotten 15 games under the belt with the new Pirate band they so far they haven't proven to be overpowered. We did make a few tweeks to the list to as mentioned prviously.

I did raise the cost of Boat hooks to 20 GC and Harpoons to 30gc. I also make Monkey/Parrots heor only.

I dropped the strength of Grape shot to 4 and the solid shot to 6. This seems to have balanced out the strength of the weapon and kept it from being to overpowering in early game.

I also adjusted the starting WS of the Mates to 3 to balance out the slightly better hero mix and they performed well although I'm still not sure if it would have been to overpowered.

I've attached an updated copy of the list below

***************

Pirates Warband


Along the coasts and River byways of the old world shipping is a major industry with millions of Crowns of goods being sent all around the Empire and Bretonia. With all that wealth ripe for the plucking some unscrupulous individuals will turn to less than legal means to acquire cargo.

Many a merchant or navy captain has found himself at the end of the sword of his own crew when they decide they have a better use for the ship they are sailing on. From the safe haven of the Sartosian islands to the merchant city of Marienburg these cutthroats operate outside the control of the Empire and Bretonia preying on any ship that comes under their sight. When the lure of treasure is great enough they will even venture further inland.

Choice of warriors
A Pirate warband must include a minimum of three models. You have 500 gold crowns to recruit your warband. The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.

Pirate Captain: Each Pirate warband must have one Pirate Captain, no more, no less!
Master of Arms: Your warband may include a single Master of Arms if you wish.
Mates: Your warband may include up to two Mates.
Cabin Boy: Your warband may include a single Cabin Boy if you wish.
Gunners: Your warband may include up to five Gunners.
Sailors: Your warband may include any number of Sailors.
Scurvy Dogs: No more than half your warband can be composed of Scurvy Dogs.

A Pirate Captain starts with 20 experience.
A Master of Arms starts with 12 experience.
Mates start with 8 experience.
A Cabin Boy starts with 0 experience.
Henchmen start with 0 experience.

SPECIAL RULES
Fence: During the Post Battle sequence a Pirate warband can attempt to sell its treasure or Wyrdstone to one of their contacts. If you so roll a d6 and consult the below table:
1 – 2 Bad Deal: You count as trading in one less treasure for determining income.
3 – 4 Fair Trade: No effect.
5 – 6 Good Deal: You count as trading in one addition treasure for determining income.
7+ Hot Item: As Good Deal above. In addition your contact gives you a deal on an item he needs to get rid of very quickly, you may subtract 4d6 from the cost (to a minimum of 1 gc) of any one rare item you purchase during the current post game sequence.


STARTING EQUIPMENT LIST


Pirate Weapons
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger (1st free) 2 gc
Hook 3 gc
Club 3 gc
Hammer 3 gc
Axe 5 gc
Main Gauche * 7 gc
Cutlass (Sword) 10 gc
Spear 10 gc
Rapier * 15 gc
Boat Hook 20 gc
Cat O’Nine Tails * 15 gc
Missile Weapons
Harpoon 30 gc
Crossbow 25 gc
Pistol 15 gc (30 gc for Brace)
Armour
Toughened Leathers 5 gc
Shield 5 gc
Buckler 5 gc
Helmet 10 gc
Miscellaneous
Rope and Hook 5 gc
Pet Parrot/Monkey * 50 gc
Gunner Weapons
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger (1st free) 2 gc
Hook 3 gc
Club 3 gc
Hammer 3 gc
Axe 5 gc
Cutlass (Sword) 10 gc
Boat Hook 15 gc
Missile Weapons
Crossbow 25 gc
Pistol 15 gc (30 gc for Brace)
Handgun 35 gc
Deck Gun 90 gc
Armour
Toughened Leathers 5 gc
Helmet 10 gc
Miscellaneous
Rope and Hook 5 gc

Press Ganged
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger (1st free) 2 gc
Hook 3 gc
Club 3 gc
Boat Hook 20 gc
Missile Weapons
None
Armour
None
Miscellaneous
Rope and Hook 5 gc

* Heroes Only


SPECIAL EQUIPMENT


Hook
Cost: 3 gc, Availability: Common
A hook is a common sight around Pirate ships and when necessary will be used by the crew as an impromptu weapon. It is also common is to see a crew member who has lost a hand replace it with a hook.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat As User +1 Armor Save As good as a hand
As good as a hand: A Hook can be used to replace a hand lost to injury. Models armed with a hook hand may still gain the bonus attack for being armed with an additional weapon.

Boat Hook
Cost: 20 gc, Availability: Common
A common tool used on sailing vessels a boat hook resembles a spear with a hook attached just below the head. Normally used to assist in drawing a ships shore boats alongside to aid in recovery or to push off when launching, they will often be used during boarding actions to draw another ship closer to help attackers get onboard easier. In a pinch the hook can also be used to entangle a foe and trip him up giving a canny pirate a jump on his prone foe.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat As User - Strike First, Trip, Two Handed
Strike First: A warrior with a boat hook strikes first in the first turn of hand-to-hand combat.
Trip: A model armed with a boat hook may give up all their attacks to attempt to trip his opponent. Roll to hit as normal and if successful roll to wound versus initiative instead of toughness. If you wound, your opponent is automatically treated as knocked down no roll on the injury chart is required. If a knocked down model has multiple wounds any subsequent attacks while he is prone will automatically hit, roll to wound as normal.
Two Handed: A model armed with a boat hook may not use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close combat.

Cat O’Nine Tails
Cost: 15 gc, Availability: Rare 6
The principle instrument of discipline on many pirate vessels, fear of the lash is what keeps most of the less scrupulous hands in line. The Cat O’Nine Tails is a common scourge used by officers and is normally several pieces of ships cord, often threaded with small barbs and normally dipped in salt water so that the wounds will cause even greater pain than would be normal. The downside to this is that even light armor can severely limit the damage caused.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat as user +1 Armor Save Whipcrack, Can Not be Parried
Whipcrack: when the wielder charges they gain +1A for that turn. This bonus attack is added after any other modifications. When the wielder is charged they gain +1A that they may only use against the charger. This additional attack will ‘strike first’. If the wielder is simultaneously charged by two or more opponents they will still only receive a total of +1A. If the wielder is using two Cat O’Nine Tails at the same time then they get +1A for the additional hand weapon, but only the first Cat O’Nine Tails gets the whipcrack +1A.
Can Not be Parried: Due to the multiple lashes on the Cat O’Nine Tails opponents may not parry attacks from this weapon.

Harpoon
Cost: 30 gc, Availability: Rare 6
A simple fishing weapon in a trained fighters hands a Harpoon can be a truly fearsome weapon. Resembling a small javelin or spear a harpoon has several jagged back facing points that rip and tear flesh when removed. Even more ingenious is that the weapon will normally have a cord or line attached to the end so that the target can be hauled in by a sturdy enough wielder.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
8” As User - Thrown Weapon, Strikes First, Entangle, Versatile
Thrown weapon: Models using a harpoon do not suffer penalties for range or moving as the harpoon is balanced for throwing.
Strike First: A warrior with a harpoon strikes first in the first turn of hand-to-hand combat.
Entangle: The barbed point and strong line a harpoon is attached to allow the wielder to haul targets hit by the harpoon towards them. If you wound a target with the harpoon and they do not go out of action at the end of the turn you and your opponent may each roll a D6 and add your models Strength to the total. If you score higher may move the target model 2 inches towards the attacking model. If this causes the models to enter base to base contact, this will count as a charge for the attacker. The attacker may not use his harpoon in the subsequent close combat.
Versatile: A Harpoon can be used as both a close combat and ranged weapon.

Deck Gun (Black Powder Weapon)
Cost: 90 + 4D6 gc, Availability: Rare 10
One of the most devastating weapon in any pirate’s arsenal, the deck gun is a small cannon that can be relatively easily moved around. Able to be loaded with a variety of ammunition types the most commonly used by pirates are either the solid cannon ball, or Grape Shot when the breach is loaded with piles of nails and other scrap so that the cannon unleashes a tide of Shrapnel similar to a blunderbuss only on a grander scale.
Range Strength Modifier Special Rules
48” Special - Ready Shot, Heavy, Rare , Ammo Type
Heavy: Deck Guns are very difficult to move. A model armed with a deck gun may never run and has their movement halved while carrying the deck gun. Any friendly model that begins its turn within 1” of the model armed with a deck gun may opt to assist in moving the gun. The helper gives up there movement for the turn and adds 1” to the distance the model with the deck gun may move up to their maximum movement. After moving the deck gun place any models that helped move the deck gun within 1” of the wielder.
Rare: Deck Guns are extremely expensive and difficult to maintain. No Warband may ever have more than one deck gun.
Ready Shot: It takes a full turn to prepare to fire a deck gun. While preparing to fire a deck gun a model may not move or make any ranged or close combat attacks. At the end of the turn declare which type of ammo you are loading from the option below. In any subsequent turn you may make a ranged attack with the appropriate ammo type after which you must prepare another shot.
Ammo Type: When preparing a shot for the deck gun you must select one of the two types of shot below. You may begin the game with one of the two shot types loaded however must declare this when deploying the model with the deck gun.

Grape Shot: When your model fires the Deck Gun draw a line 20" long and 1" wide in any direction from the firer (the line must be absolutely straight). Any and all models in its path are automatically hit by a Strength 4 hit.

Solid Shot: When your model fires the Deck Gun mark a point on within the deck guns range as the target point and roll a D6:
1 – 2 Short: Move the point 2d6 – BS inches straight back towards the deck gun.
3 – 4 On Target: Leave the point where it is
5 – 6 Long: Move the point 2d6 – BS Inches straight ahead from the deck gun

Any model struck by the initial impact will take a strength 6 hit. After establishing where the shot lands roll 3D6 to determine how far the shot bounces. Move the marker in a straight line away from the Deck Gun and any model in the path is struck for a Strength 4 hit. Models in the path of the bounce may attempt to roll under their initiative to avoid being hit. If the Cannon ball encounters any blocking terrain during its bounce it will be immediately halted.

Pet Parrot/Monkey
Cost: 50 + 2d6 gc, Availability: Rare 8
Many Pirates will take it in mind to train a pet to amuse them during long voyages. Often they will take a true shine to this pet and have it follow them everywhere including into battle where the pet can be used as a timely distraction to an unsuspecting foe or to warn the owner of approaching foes.
At the start of the Close Combat phase select one enemy model engaged in Close Combat and reduce their attack characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1). In addition add one to the distance at which you can detect hidden models.


HEROES


1 Pirate Captain
60 Gold Crowns to Hire
Whether a gentleman pirate or a heartless cutthroat a Captain must be able to lead his crew to profit and plunder to maintain his standing. For many Pirates this means staying one step ahead of the authorities who would like nothing more than to clap the whole crew in irons and send them to the deepest darkest prison they can find.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8

Weapons/Armour: A Pirate captain may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

Special Rules
Leader: Any models in the warband within 6" of the Pirate Captain may use his Leadership instead of their own.

0 – 1 Master of Arms
45 Gold Crowns to Hire
Normally the Captain’s most trusted crew member will be given the role of maintaining the ships armory. On a ship quality weapons can mean the difference between a successful mutiny and a long walk off a short plank of wood. A Master of Arms will also generally have a greater degree of military training and will often be the best fighter amongst the crew after the captain himself.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7

Weapons/Armour: A Master of Arms may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

Special Rules
Weapons Master: The Master of Arms starts with the Weapons Training Skill


0 – 2 Mates
35 Gold Crowns to hire
The senior crew members on a ship hold great power over the rest of the crew. Normally entitled to a greater share of any plunder and the trust of the captain they are his eyes and ears ensuring that discipline is maintained. For some the power can lead to a mentor role, for others they control the crew through terror and intimidation a Cat O’Nine always handy.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armour: A Mate may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

0 – 1 Cabin Boy
15 Gold Crowns to Hire
The lure of a life at sea has got the attention of many young men. For most it leads to a career serving on a merchant vessel or in the navy. For some young men however the larcenous life of the pirate is far more appealing. When these youths show a modicum of talent they will often be given additional duties with the senior officers.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 6

Weapons/Armour: A Cabin boy may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.


HENCHMEN (Bought in Groups of 1-5)


Sailors
25 Gold Crowns to hire each
The vast majority of crew on a ship will be made up of naval deserters and merchant sailors who have given up the respectable life they knew before for a life of larceny and adventure on the high seas.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armour: Sailors may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Pirate Equipment list.

0 – 5 Gunners
30 Gold Crowns to hire each
More experienced crew may be given the responsibility of caring for the ships cannons and supply of black powder. This can be an especially dangerous duty as one errant spark can cause the entire ship to go up.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armour: Gunners may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Gunner Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Powder Monkey: Gunners train extensively in the use of guns and pistols and may use any black powder weapon they acquire.

Scurvy Dogs
15 Gold Crowns to hire each
When a pirate needs to recruit new crew they don’t always find willing volunteers lining up for the chance to sail. When the need for crew members is truly great they may begin to haunt waterside taverns and brothels looking for drunks that they can strong arm into joining the crew. If that doesn’t work than there is always the option of a quick club to the back of the head and a trip to the harbor in a sack to get the new “recruit” settled into his new life at sea.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 2 2 3 3 1 2 1 5

Weapons/Armour: Scurvy Dogs may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Press Ganged Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Press Ganged: Scurvy dogs are not serving on the crew by choice and do not have any ambition except to escape. Scurvy Dogs can never gain experience for any reason.
Down Trodden: Conditions on a ship are not the best especially for the dregs that are normally found serving against their will. When rolling to see if a Scurvy Dog survive injuries during the post game sequence they are removed from the roster on a 1 – 3 rather than 1 – 2 as normal.





PIRATE SKILL TABLE
Combat Shooting Academic Strength Speed Special
Pirate Captain X X X X X X
Master of Arms X - - X X X
Mates - - - X X X
Cabin Boy - X - - X X

Special Skills
Pirate Heroes with access to special skills may choose to use the following Skill list instead of any of the standard Skill tables available to them.


Blackheart: The pirate has earned a reputation for being a heartless monster and the terror of the high seas, whether this reputation is well earned or not is another question. This model now causes fear.

Master Gunner: Training in the use of the ships cannons and guns has given this Pirate a comfortable familiarity with Black Powder weapons. The Pirate may use any Black Powder Weapon, not just those listed on his equipment list. In addition when rolling for scatter with a solid shot from a Deck Gun the warrior may double his ballistic skill

Master of the Tops: This Pirate is agile as monkey quickly scampering up the rigging of a ship. If equipped with a Rope and Hook this warrior automatically passes all climbing checks. In addition when making a diving charge if equipped with a rope and hook you may re-roll any failed initiative checks.

Panache: A true master of the sword and always ready with a witty quip, this warrior makes short work of his foe in most fights. The Warrior may add +1 to attempts to parry attacks. This will allow the warrior to parry an attack roll of 6.

Quarter Master: This pirate is responsible for supplying the ship while in port. His network of contacts allows him to get the best price when attempting to trade for supplies. Only one model can benefit from this skill during the post battle sequence, add one to the result when rolling on the Fence table.

Jon
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Pirate warband   Today at 17:22

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