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 Pair of pistols and another weapon

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Dribble Joy
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PostSubject: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 15:54

The FAQ mentions a single pistol + additional weapon, but mentions nothing about a brace.

In a game tonight someone fired both the pistols from his brace, then used his great weapon. The FAQ doesn't mention this, and the pistol rules are ambiguous on the matter.

Aside from the generally accepted rule that you fight with as many weapons as you have hands (including tails and mutations), is there anything (concrete) in the rules that prohibits a fighter from doing this?
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 16:13

I don't know if there is anything concrete in the rules. I suspect not.

I believe that a pistol attack in close combat takes up a hand in the first round of close combat. Therefore you can fire a pistol in your off-hand and attack with a mace with your on-hand or you can attack with a brace of pistols (a pair) but forgo any other attacks. Also, using this logic it would not be possible to attack with any weapon requiring two hands (e.g. a great weapon) if one or two pistols were fired in the first round of close combat.

A brace of pistols count as a single missile weapon allowing models to carry a brace of pistols and another missile weapon (e.g. handgun). However, this should not translate to allowing a brace of pistols to be fired with one hand.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 16:28

thats pretty shady on that guys part. I think its pretty clear that RAI is that the attacks from your brace of pistols replaces your normal attacks, as it would obviously use up both your hands while you're doing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 19:23

I'm really curious about the gentleman's argument. The rules don't seem all that ambiguous but I am used to playing by them.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 0:48

Argument I think goes like this:

A pistol gives you +1 attack with another weapon (rule book doesn't specify what kind or how many hands they might use) if you have 2 pistols you fight with 2 attacks; where I think he is taking as to mean +2 attacks rather than replacing all your attacks with the two pistol ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 7:34

Ah, I think he's thinking of them like crossbow pistols: you fire them as the guy charges, then you switch to your real weapon once the fighting begins.

This is entirely bogus, but I can see where he might be mislead.

No, the pistols ARE the hand to hand weapon. We generally allow that the pistol counts as a club when it is unloaded, so after the 2 shots, any further attacks (if he has an Attack profile of 2 or higher) and any attacks in the following rounds (assuming he doesn't leave combat and get a chance to reload) count as club attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 8:22

I am almost certain it works as follows, and that it's pretty clear in the rules/errata -

1) You can only attack in HTH combat with as many weapons as you have "hands"

2) When you are charged, pistols essentially become a one-off melee weapon.

3) After the initial round of combat, you can change your pistols out for proper melee weapons. You may not change again after that.

So, if your buddy had his Brace, he could fire both of them when he was charged (assuming he survives the charge), and then switch to his great weapon for the hand to hand phase of the next turn. Leastwise, that's how I read it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 2:31

Quote :
Hand-to-hand: Pistols can be used in hand-to-hand combat as
well as for shooting. A model armed with a pistol and
another close combat weapon gains +1 Attack, which is
resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier. This bonus
attack can be used only once per combat. If you are firing a
brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the
first turn of close combat.
These attacks are resolved with a
modelís Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack
and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are
resolved at Strength 4 and with
a -2 save modifier, regardless
of the firerís Strength.

If you go RAW, than you fight with a brace with 2 Attacks from the brace and not with 2 additional attacks and your normal weapon. See the difference in the part with just one pistol. There he get +1 Attack with the pistol.

RAW you could use one Pistol and after that the 2-handed weapon...
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 5:35

In melee, a warrior has a number of attacks = to his "attack rating" (the "A" in the his profile). Carrying an additional hand weapon in his off hand always grants "+1 attack". So the wording in the description above is consistent with the rules' language elsewhere - the pistol is a second handweapon, in effect, so it grants +1 attack. That's why, as Saranor indicated, using two pistols gives the warrior "two attacks", not "+2 attacks". Importantly, a model with A2 with a sword and club would have three attacks (two with his weapon of choice, +1 because of the second hand weapon), but the same model armed with a brace of pistols only has two attacks, period.

Monetegue's point 3 about changing the pistols for other weapons after firing them, and trofoamKing's point that his group allow warriors to use pistols as clubs are neither in the rules, however both were recommended by one the authors (Tuomas Pirinen) in a long ago interview. We use both of these rules. If you use the switch rule, you could allow a model with A2 and a brace to fire the brace in combat, an then club once...
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 8:37

So, Rules as written - if I have a Pistol, a Sword, and a Dagger, and I charge and fire my pistol and swing with my sword, in successive combat rounds am I allowed to switch my pistol for my dagger, or do I just get my sword attacks (since I cannot reload my gun)?

By that same token, if I am charged and have a brace of pistols, in rules as written, and I fire them both in response to being charged (after surviving my opponent's attacks), am I unable to attack on the next round of hand to hand combat with any hand weapons I am carrying?
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 10:01

You may switch to your dagger. After using both of your pistols, you swap out to any other weapon you may be carrying (see pages 15 & 16 of the Errata).
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 10:37

Actually, with the rules as written, in Montegue's example, the attacker would only be able to attack with the sword after the first round. Allowing to switch weapons in an ongoing melee was a house rule used by one of the original authors - it is not incorporated into the rulebook. (Well, unless it was a stealth inclusion at some point). We do allow you to drop a weapon and grab another in my group - but you cannot pick up the dropped weapon (i.e. switch back) until the melee is over.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 10:41

It's in the errata Q&A (along with Lances), which (I'm pretty sure) means it's essentially part of rules as written.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 14:35

You are correct. I had forgotten that they had semi-changed it (probably because we had already adopted Pirinen's recommended house rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 14:11

The way we played it was your pistols got one shot then you have to switch to melee weapons (or another pistol) we house rulles that an empty pistol could be used in melee but it would count as being armed, but it would not give you any bonus like a Sword, ax or club do.

If I had multiple attacks I always had a sword, club, or ax in my main hand, and the pistol in my off-hand. So if my guy had 2 attacks +1 for my off-hand wepon then I would attack twice with the melee weapon then I would use the pistol from my off-hand bonus attack. Next turn I would replace the used pistol with a loaded one, It worked pretty well.

If my guy had only 1 attack +1 off-hand attack then I would place a pistol in each hand, fire them both then switch to a melee weapon. You want the bonus strength, but you don't want to lose an attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 10 Oct 2011 - 13:20

If his model has an extra attack on his profile (before the additional pistol) I'd allow it. Awkward getting to "dual wield" in the same turn that he used a great weapon, though.

1A 1st Pistol, off-hand A 2nd Pistol
2A Great Weapon

I cannot abide penalizing braces of pistols for models with more than a single attack. There's enough of that glitchy business in the game without it.

Although I think I'm probably wrong tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 10 Oct 2011 - 21:04

I would like to take this opportunity to appologize to Shotguncoffee for not taking his previous thread on pistols seriously.

(See topic: Pistols are a close combat nightmare)

There are so many different responses to the original question, many of which I never would have considered. What a mess.

I will report that the group I play with has never had a big argument about pistols despite 10+ years of new players' questions. We would not have allowed the use of a double handed weapon in the same round as a brace of pistols was fired since the warrior's hands are full of pistols. In his next round the warrior would be allowed to switch his pistols for the double-handed weapon or just grab the barrels and lay about using them as clubs.

We generally use a brace of pistols early to gain 2 S4 attacks in melee. Once warriors gain attacks the pistols see less use unless a hero gains Pistolier.

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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 10 Oct 2011 - 22:20

Interesting, so if your hero has an Attack profile with more than 1 attack, a sword and a brace of pistols, you would be better off going, 1st round sword and pistol, second round sword and pistol, third round sword and dagger?
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Mon 10 Oct 2011 - 22:21

After the first round of combat, you can switch the pistol out for a different weapon. However, if combat went to a third round, you would be out an attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Tue 11 Oct 2011 - 1:26

The Rules allow it this way:

Brace and 2H-Weapon:
1. Turn
- Option A: 2 S4 with pistols
- Option B: 1 S4 with pistols and your profile attacks with 2H
2.+ Turn
- your profile attacks with 2H

Brace and Sword::
1. Turn
- Option A: 2 S4 with pistols and no parry
- Option B: 1 S4 with pistols and your profile attacks with Sword and one parry
2.+ Turn
- your profile attacks with Sword and parry

Brace and 2 Weapons::
1. Turn
- Option A: 2 S4 with pistols
- Option B: 1 S4 with pistols and your profile attacks with one weapon
- Option C: 1 attack from your offhand and your profilattacks with mainhand
2.+ Turn
- your normal attacks (profil + offhand)

Pistols can only be used in the first turn and after that you switch to your other weapons, that you use for the rest of the fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Tue 11 Oct 2011 - 5:42

You cannot use a 2H weapon and fire any pistols in the same round of combat. Here is the rule for Two-handed weapons:

"Two-handed: A model armed with a double-handed weapon may not use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close combat. " [emphasis added]

A pistol is "an additional weapon" and thus cannot be used in conjunction with a 2HW.

Here is the rule for pistols in H-to-H:

"Pistols can be used in hand-to-hand combat as well as for shooting. A model armed with a pistol and another close combat weapon gains +1 Attack.... If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat."

So, with one pistol you have your profile attacks + the pistol, with two pistols you have just two attacks - if your attack profile is two or higher you would have more attacks with two melee weapons.



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PostSubject: Re: Pair of pistols and another weapon   Tue 11 Oct 2011 - 8:22

ok, you are right. the pistol doesn't restrict you from using a 2H-Weapon, but the 2H-Weapon has the rule itself.
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