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 Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue

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mweaver
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PostSubject: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Sun 25 Sep 2011 - 7:29

The Bretonnian warband receives a lot of attention from Mordheim fans. They are an interesting idea for a warband and they offer rich modeling opportunities, but many experienced players who have tried them note that they are underpowered (only slightly so, in my opinion), and the GW version of the warband does not lend itself to the warband developing in a way consistent with the character of the Bretonnians – warhorses and shining armor are no more common than with any other generic human warband.

Accordingly, the Bretonnian rules have been the subject of frequent revisions. Here are two relatively recent and interesting attempts posted on Tom’s:

StyrofoamKing’s “Bretonnian Chapel Guard”

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5327-bretonnian-chapel-guard

and Pervavita’s “Knights of Bretonnia”:

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5774-knights-of-bretonnia

Below, in the next post, is my take on the Bretonnians. I do not consider it a revision of the GW version, but rather a significantly different warband. It always struck me as odd that a gang of knights would all head off to Mordheim on a joint quest, so this warband is based around the retinue of a single knight (although as the warband progresses, it is possible it may acquire a second knight, if the squire does well). My goals were to (1) encourage the use of heavy armor and horses, and (2) keep the consistent with the Bretonnian character.

The document is also posted at Wargames Weaver, my brother Jim’s blog; you can also download the MS Word file from that site.

http://hobbyblog.wargameweaver.com/uncategorized/bretonnians-revisited#more-275

At this point the warband has not been playtested. I am very open to suggestions for those who are willing to take the time to wade through the document!

-Michael
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Sun 25 Sep 2011 - 7:41

Bretonnian Knight's Retinue
Michael Weaver

The Kingdom of Bretonnia is far removed from the cursed city of Mordheim, and few in the Kingdom have ever heard of the distant Imperial city. But a handful of valiant Bretonnian knights have made their way to the city, for reasons obscure to outsiders. Perhaps they search for wealth to restore their family’s fortunes. More likely, they seek opportunities to display their valor and martial prowess. Some may travel to the city of the dead as part of a quest, undertaken in the name of the Lady of the Lake. Whatever the reason, these knights and their retinues have added an interesting exotic flavor to the ramshackle communities that have appeared on the outskirts of the city of the damned.

A Bretonnian warband represents the retinue of a single knight who has travelled to Mordheim for purposes he holds close. Most, if not all, of his initial warband will be made of his countrymen: his loyal squire (perhaps a younger kinsman), his skilled master of the horse, a handful of commoners, and - perhaps - a novice damsel of the Lady.


Special Rules

Bretonnians: The history, culture, and social structure of Bretonnia sets it apart from its imperial neighbor. While citizens of the Empire, from Reiklander to Kislevite, find the Bretonnians’ beliefs to be quaint and obscure, the children of Bretonnia know their place in the social order, and their ties are bound even tighter when venturing far from their home and kin. The following heroes and henchmen type have the Bretonnian special rule: the knight, the novice damsel, the master of the horse, the squire, the sergeant, archers and men-at-arms. When using the knight’s leadership, all other warriors with the Bretonnian special rule (including the knight himself) count the knight’s leadership characteristic as one point higher than its actual value. Additionally, when the knight is mounted, warriors with the Bretonnian special rule can use the knight’s leadership characteristic when they are within 12” of him; however, if they are beyond 6” must use his actual characteristic, without the bonus +1 to its value.

You talk funny, mister: Bretonnians in Mordheim are far from their homes, and people tend to view them with suspicion. In practical terms, this xenophobia means that Bretonnians rarely secure good bargains when buying supplies. To represent this problem, when selling warpstone shards a Bretonnian warband always counts as one size category larger than its actual size.

Far from home: those who have followed the knight to Mordheim are not easy to replace. After any game, if the Bretonnians wish to recruit someone who has the Bretonnian special rule, roll a d6. On a roll of 5+, the recruit they seek is available. If the first roll was a success, and the band wishes to hire a second recruit after the same game: they may roll again and successfully recruit a second Bretonnian recruit on a roll of 6+. Recruitment of Bretonnian henchmen is subject to the normal restrictions on hiring experienced henchmen.


Choice of Warriors

A Bretonnian warband must include a minimum of 3 models. You have 500 Gold Crowns which you can use to recruit and equip your warband. The maximum number of warriors
in the warband is 15.

Bretonnian Knight: your warband must include one Bretonnian knight, no more, no less!

Novice Damsel of the Lady: your warband may include a single Novice Damsel.

Squire: your warband may include a single Squire.

Master of the Horse: your warband may include a single Master of the Horse.

Sergeant: your warband may include a single Sergeant.

Archers: your warband may include up to five Archers.

Men-at-Arms: your warband may include up to five Men-at-Arms.

Local Recruits: your warband may include any number of Local Recruits


Starting Experience:

The Bretonnian Knight starts with 20 experience.

The Novice Damsel of the Lady: starts with 8 experience.

The Squire starts with 0 experience.

The Master of the Horse starts with 8 experience

The Sergeant starts with 8 experience

All Henchmen start with 0 experience.



Heroes:

1 Bretonnian Knight (65 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 4 3 1 4 1 8

Bretonnian: the Questing Knight is a member of the Bretonnian aristocracy.

Knightly Leadership: when the Bretonnian Knight is on foot, any warrior within 6" of him may use his Leadership characteristic when taking Leadership tests. When the Bretonnian Knight is mounted, the range of this ability is extended to 12” for all warriors with the Bretonnian special rule.

Ride Horse: the Bretonnian Knight may ride a riding horse or warhorse.

Man of Faith: the Bretonnian Knight knows that the Lady guides his steps. He may reroll any of his Fear and All Alone checks, and he automatically passes his first rout test. However, since he places his faith exclusively in the Lady, he will not carry any Holy Artifacts found in Mordheim or its environs, knowing them to be worthless trinkets.

Weapons/Armor: The Bretonnian knight may be equipped with weapons, armor and equipment from the knight’s section of the Bretonnian equipment list.



0-1 Novice Damsel (30 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 7

Bretonnian: the novice damsel is a member of the Bretonnian yeomanry or aristocracy.

Ride Horse: the damsel may ride a riding horse.

Devoted of the Lady: The novice damsel has been dedicated to the Lady of the Lake, and she begins the campaign with one of the Prayers of the Lady.

Weapons/Armor: The novice damsel may be equipped with weapons and equipment from the novice’s section of the Bretonnian equipment list.


0-1 Squire (15 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 6

Bretonnian: the squire is a member of the Bretonnian aristocracy.

Ride Horse: the Squire may ride a riding horse or warhorse.

Weapons/Armor: The squire may be equipped with weapons, armor and equipment from the knight’s section of the Bretonnian equipment list.


0-1 Master of the Horse (40 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Bretonnian: the Master of the Horse is a member of the Bretonnian yeomanry.

Ride horse: the Master of the Horse may ride a riding horse or warhorse.

Horse Doctor: if the Master of the Horse is not taken out of action, the warband may reroll for any horse taken out of action that rolls a “1” or a “2” on its serious injury check. If the reroll is a 3+, then the Master of the Horse has saved the animal, although it will miss the next game as it recovers.

Weapons/Armor: The master of the horse may be equipped with weapons, armor and equipment from the knight’s section of the Bretonnian equipment list.


0-1 Sergeant (35 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Bretonnian: the sergeant is a member of the Bretonnian yeomanry.

Weapons/Armor: The sergeant may be equipped with weapons and armor from either the men-at-arms or archer’s section of the Bretonnian equipment list.



Henchmen

0-5 Archers (20 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Bretonnian: archers are members of the Bretonnian peasantry.

Weapons/Armor: archers may be equipped with weapons and armor from the archer’s section of the Bretonnian equipment list.



0–5 Men-at-Arms (25 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Bretonnian: men-at-arms are members of the Bretonnian peasantry.

Weapons/Armor: men-at-arms may be equipped with weapons and armor from the men-at-arms section of the Bretonnian equipment list.



Local Recruits (20 gold crowns to hire)
Profile M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons/Armor: local recruits may be equipped with weapons and armor from the men-at-arms section of the Bretonnian equipment list.


Bretonnian Equipment

Knights
Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Mace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Morning Star . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Lance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Armour and mounts
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Heavy armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Warhorse . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 gc
Riding Horse . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25 gc
Barding . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 gc
Heraldic Banner . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 gc

Novices
Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Staff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Armor and mounts:
Riding Horse . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25 gc

Archers
Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Club . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Missile Weapons
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Longbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Armour
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Men-at-Arms
Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Hammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Armour
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc




Bretonnian Skills

Combat Shooting Academic Strength Speed Riding Special
Knight X X X X

Novice X X X X

Squire X X X X

Master of Horse X X X X

Sergeant X X X X


Bretonnian Special Skills:

Renowned (Bretonnian Knight only): The Bretonnian knight has made a reputation for himself in Mordheim, and merchants are proud to deal with him; the warband can now ignore the You talk funny, mister special rule. Additionally, he receives a 10% discount when purchasing weapons, armor, and horses (round up).

Channeler of Grace (Novice of the Lady only): If the Novice of the Lady is not taken out of action in a game, and does not search for rare items after the game, she may attempt to bless one of the warband’s swords with the Lady’s grace. If the Novice of the Lady makes a successful Leadership test, roll a d6 to determine the results:
1 – 2 The sword acts as if it was an ithilmar weapon
3 – 4 The sword grants +1 on rolls to hit
5 – 6 The sword grants +1 attack
Additionally, the sword counts as a magical weapon for purposes of hitting ethereal creatures, etc. All results last only for the next game.


Horse Trainer (Master of the Horse only): If the Master of the Horse is not taken out of action in a game, and does not search for rare items after the game, he may attempt to improve the training of a single horse or warhorse. If the Master of the Horse makes a successful Leadership test, roll a d6 to determine the results of the training. The same horse or warhorse can be trained multiple times, but each result can only be rolled once for any mount; reroll if the initial die roll indicates a training result the horse or warhorse has already received.
1-3 The horse or warhorse gains +1 weapon skill
4-5 The horse or warhorse gains +1 attack
6 The horse or warhorse grants its rider the Evade skill

Respected Veteran (Sergeant only): henchmen within 6” of the Sergeant may use his Leadership skill for Leadership checks, and when doing so his leadership counts as one point higher than his actual value (for example, if the Sergeant’s Leadership score is “7”, henchmen within six inches of his have an effective Leadership of “8”).

Knighted (Squire only): The squire can be Knighted any only if at some point in the campaign he took out of action a large opponent, a multi-wound opponent, or an enemy warband’s leader. When knighted, the squire becomes a Bretonnian knight and gains +1 weapon skill and + 1 leadership; when the new knight is mounted, an additional +1 is added to his leadership. Any henchman with the Bretonnian special rule within 6” of the new knight may now use his leadership value for leadership tests.

Sturdy Build: the warrior is especially fit, and may wear heavy armor and bear a shield without suffering a movement penalty.

The Lady’s Favor: a hero with the Lady’s Favor may, once per game, before rolling, use the Favor to insure that the next roll is successful. It can be used for rolls to hit, to wound, characteristics tests, armor saves, and spell casting. It cannot be used to generate a specific number (a “6” to generate a critical hit, a 5 or 6 on an injury roll to take an enemy out of action, etc.



Special Equipment:

Heraldic Banner (20 gold crowns if purchased when the warband is created, 40 gold crowns if purchased subsequently). The heraldic banner is mounted on a staff, and shows the Knight’s heraldic device. The staff may be carried in a game by the Squire or the Master of the Horse. The banner carrier can use a single hand weapon, or he can use a shield for defense. He cannot use a missile weapon, any weapon that has the two handed special rule, or two hand weapons. During a scenario, if the banner carrier has not been taken out of action all warband members who have the Bretonnian special rule receive a +1 to their Leadership score if they are within 12” of the banner. After a game in which a heraldic banner was carried, if the warband attempts to recruit a new member who has the Bretonnian special rule, the warband receives a +1 modifier on the roll to check for the availability of the recruit. Additionally, if a Bretonnian warband has a heraldic banner, after a game the Knight can make a Leadership test (at his base score) and, if successful, the You talk funny, mister penalty is negated for this post-game phase.



Prayers of the Lady


The Lady’s Blessing (Difficulty 6): The Lady answers the novice’s pleas for assistance and sends her Blessing.
The novice may re-roll all her failed dice rolls, though the second results stand. The effect lasts until the beginning of her own next turn.

Champion of the Lady (Difficulty 7): The novice channels the Lady’s favor to a chosen hero.
This spell may only be cast on a mounted Bretonnian within the novice’s line of sight. The warrior’s mount has its movement increased by 1” and the warrior gains +1 attack. The affected warrior must make a leadership test at the beginning of the each Bretonnian turn; if the test fails, these bonuses are lost.

Prayer of Healing (Difficulty 7): The novice invokes the Lady’s mercy for Bretonnia’s wounded warriors.
Any one model within 4" of the Novice (including herself) may be healed. The warrior is restored
to his full quota of Wounds. In addition, if any friendly models within 4" are stunned or knocked
down, they immediately come to their senses, stand up, and continue fighting as normal.

The Sword of the Lady (Difficulty Cool: a glowing sword appears in the novice’s hand.
The sword of the Lady grants +2 to weapon skill, +1 attack, +1 strength, and reduces the target’s armor saves by 2 points. Take a Leadership test at the beginning of each of the novice’s own turns. If the test fails, the sword disappears.

Protecting Winds (difficulty Cool: The novice’s prayers bring winds that swirl around her, to the dismay of her enemies.
The winds the spell produces protect the novice and all Bretonnians within 10” of her, and any missile attacks aimed at them are at -1 to hit. The effects lasts until the beginning of the next Bretonnian turn.

Blessed Armor (difficulty 9): The hero’s armor shines with the grace of the Lady.
This spell may be cast on any warrior wearing heavy armor. While the armor is blessed, all critical hits against the protected warrior are ignored and are treated as normal hits instead. Further, anyone who scores a wound on the chosen warrior in melee suffers a Strength 4 hit in return. Every time the chosen warrior is wounded, roll a d6: the spell is lost on a roll of 1 – 3, but remains active on a roll of 4+.


Last edited by mweaver on Sun 18 Nov 2012 - 8:00; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Sun 25 Sep 2011 - 7:50

Not surprisingly, some of the formatting is screwed up.

SKILLS
Bretonnian Knight: Combat, Strength, Riding, and Special
Novice: Academic, Speed, Riding, and Special
Squire: Combat, Strength, Riding, and Special
Master of the Horse: Combat, Strength, Riding, and Special
Sergeant: Combat, Shooting, Strength and Special

STAT LINES
Bretonnian Knight
M4 WS4 BS4 Str4 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8

Novice of the Lady
M4 WS2 BS2 Str3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7

Squire
M4 WS2 BS2 Str3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6

Master of the Horse
M4 WS4 BS3 Str3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7

Sergeant
M4 WS4 BS3 Str3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7

Archers, Men-at-Arms, and local recruits
M4 WS3 BS3 Str3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7


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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Sun 25 Sep 2011 - 8:51

I love the 'You talk funny mister' rule! Actually I like the warband concept quite a bit. I used to want to encourage the use of horses and armor, but then I found ships. Now I find myself tinkering with gunpowder and sails.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Sun 25 Sep 2011 - 16:23

I also like the you talk funny mister rule. I've never considered that as a solution before, but its quite elegant. Overall I like this idea alot better than a bunch of knights. Seems more Round Table knights being sent on their own to find the grail than a bunch of knights just striding into mordheim. A few things:

A) I think you should go all out and cut the armor prices in half at creation instead of just lowering it a little. At least for the knight, since he'll definitely already have it handy.

B) The Knight should maybe be a touch more expensive. Not much, just 5gc or so. He's got a str increase over a captain, and his leader ability is more potent for practically every member of the warband. Despite his money raising downside, i think those two things together are worth 10gc more than a merc captain.

and

C) This isn't a big thing at all, but i don't find the special bret. skills very attractive as one of the two skill tables a TLGT hero can choose for himself. Theres only two skills on it that he could even take. Maybe when a Bret. henchmen becomes a hero, he can be upgraded to a "squire" so he can have the chance of being knighted and taking advantage of more of the skills?
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Sun 25 Sep 2011 - 20:43

Overall, I think they have a strong hero mix - five heroes with only one youngblood. The You Talk Funney, mister and Far From Home rules were intended to help balance that strong hero set.

Good point about the cost of the knight, whiskeytango. I will probably bump it... and may cut armor a bit more to balance. Right now the heavy armor is set at 60% of list price.

In terms of the special skills and promoted henchman - I thought about that some. But in the end I decided that a promoted hero can choose any of the standard skill sets (including academic) + the riding skills, so even if the special skills aren't particularly attractive for him, he has a lot of options.

Thanks for the comments, guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 2:06

I think the warband is well thought out, and appealing. It seems to me that you have created good incentives to use horse and armour. I've been thinkering a bit with a knightly list, not so bretonniacentered though, and I liked the idea of henchmen bards, scribes, falconeers etc, that weren't so good at fighting, but gave small bonuses to the warband. Perhaps this might be a good idea? Or perhaps make up some fitting hired swords?
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 2:34

@mweaver... I really like this warband. I like what you have done for mounts.

@folketsfiende... well there is a bard hired sword already from the Fortune Hunters article that allows rerolls to leadership tests. The others would be interesting with the scribe perhaps providing post battle benefits more than in battle benefits and I'm not sure about the falconeer.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 5:31

Last week when I saw Red Box Game's new bard, I briefly considered somehow making room for a bard hero in the warband. But at that point I was pretty happy with the existing structure of the band. I had forgotten about the bard in the Fortune Hunter's article, though, which will give me an excuse to pick up and paint this figure - thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 13:18

A few points.

Over all I love this take on Bretonnians.

I do miss the Lady of the Lakes Curse/Blessing rule here but it would have a small impact on the warband with only 2 able to use it... 3 latter in the game.
On that when the Squire is promoted would that then mean you could hire a new Squire? The rules as I see them would allow it.

Gun Powder; Bretonnians HATE it but your rule set doesn't go into that. maybe a special rule for making it so that even with the skill that allows you to get them you are excluded from them.
I think this may have been something "missed" on previous WB write ups and feels to me as if here on this one that it's missed due to a lack of the Lady of the Lakes Curse not specifying the hate of Black Powder. So maybe it's just the way i'm feeling about it.

The Holy Relic rule I'm not sure I like. I would think that some Bretonnian Relics would find there way to Mordheim but be supper rare (12) and maybe the Knight could start the game with one (?).

Leadership on your peasant rabble needs a drop. they are only held in check by there noble Knight and it would also encourage the use of your "Respected Veteran" rule as now as it stands it's cool but not a good skill over all. But with your rabble having lower Ld then it would shine. It also fits the Bretonnian fluff to have it lower.

last thing i noticed was I don't see a reason to recruite M@A if you can get local recruites for the same cost/stats/equipment list and yet no roll to see if you can recruite them. granted they don't get the boost to there Ld from the special rules. Maybe the lower Ld and thus lower cost to M@A (and bowmen) would make the diffrence... and the local recruites can't get LGT.

over all great list and i like it better then the standard Bretonnian WB list and my version as this does fit over all the theam of Bretonnians in Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 14:56

Thanks for the comments, Pervavita.

Pervavita: On that when the Squire is promoted would that then mean you could hire a new Squire? The rules as I see them would allow it.

Ha - good point. The way I have worded it, once the squire was knighted you could hire a new squire. That was not my intent at all, so I need to revise that bit. At one point I considered making the squire a henchman, with the notation that you could only have one per knight. If the squire rolled TLGT he became a knight - at which point you could hire two new squires. I was even considering a rule that made it more likely than average a squire would become a hero. But, ultimately I realized (1) it would be complicated to work out, and (2) you could potentially wind up with a warband of six knights and six squires, which was emphatically not the way I wanted the warband to develop.

So, if the squire is knighted in this band, he still fills the "squire" spot on the warband's roster, and you cannot hire another squire.


Pervavita: Gun Powder; Bretonnians HATE it but your rule set doesn't go into that. maybe a special rule for making it so that even with the skill that allows you to get them you are excluded from them. I think this may have been something "missed" on previous WB write ups and feels to me as if here on this one that it's missed due to a lack of the Lady of the Lakes Curse not specifying the hate of Black Powder. So maybe it's just the way i'm feeling about it.

Hadn't really thought about it, but I am inclined to leave it as is. The earliest Warhammer incarnations of the Bretonnians allowed them to use blackpowder (they had a bombard, for example), so I don't see them as having an absolute hatred of BP weapons. As the warband stands now, the only way it could have BP weapons would be if the sergeant or a promoted henchman took Weapon's Expert or through a hired sword. So, it isn't going to ever be a big feature of the band.

Pervavita: The Holy Relic rule I'm not sure I like. I would think that some Bretonnian Relics would find there way to Mordheim but be supper rare (12) and maybe the Knight could start the game with one (?).

The Man of Faith ability gives the Knight a built-in (and superior) Holy Relic already. Just as no hero can have two Holy Relics, he should not have a Holy Relic that and his Man of Faith benefits.

Pervavita: Leadership on your peasant rabble needs a drop. they are only held in check by there noble Knight and it would also encourage the use of your "Respected Veteran" rule as now as it stands it's cool but not a good skill over all. But with your rabble having lower Ld then it would shine. It also fits the Bretonnian fluff to have it lower.

I'm more into the sturdy loyal peasant type than the scum-of-the-earth presentation in the last WH incarnation. (Not coincidentally, the models I have picked out to paint for this warband are the older metal archers and men-at-arms, not the new, more squalid-looking peasants). I think their leadership should be the same as henchmen in average human merc warbands. Agreed, though, that until he has had a leadership bump (or two), the sergeant is unlikely to want to take Respected Veteran.

Pervavita: last thing i noticed was I don't see a reason to recruite M@A if you can get local recruites for the same cost/stats/equipment list and yet no roll to see if you can recruite them. granted they don't get the boost to there Ld from the special rules. Maybe the lower Ld and thus lower cost to M@A (and bowmen) would make the diffrence... and the local recruites can't get LGT.

Yeah, I need to ponder this issue. There was a loooong gap between when I started this warband and when I finished it, and right there at the local recruits entry is where the break came. I think I was planning on making the LRs more inferior - 6 leadership, and maybe a lower weapon skill (on the argument that the better-quality local recruits would want to join local mercs rather than these weirdos with the strange accents). But when I cam back t them I didn't nerf the stats and priced them accordingly. Which means that, as you say, there is not a huge advantage to the MoA unless you are fighting fear-causing opponents.

Again, thanks everyone for the suggestions.


Last edited by mweaver on Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 15:01; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Fixing various typos.)
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 16:05

on the Gun Powder, as I said it's mainly I think the loss of the Curse of the Lady and it's fluff about gun powder and also the Virtue of Noble Distane. Only a few with Gun Powder at most wouldn't be bad and many will not even think about it for many Bretonnians will follow there own Virtue of Noble Distane Wink

On the Holy Relic; I get what your going at here. Just it stood out to me the rule saying they could not have it just jumped out at me there.


peasant I think still should even with that idea of more trained and loyal peasants have there leadership dropped to 6 (M@A) and 5 (archers). Though I like my peasants being less rabble and more loyal aids too I think that with many of the skills they should be lowered some to make it more worth it.
It will also allow you to have more of a difrence between your M@A's and your local troops.
Though I do like the idea of making the local troops also more in line with being really bad locals (cheap fodder).

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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 16:30

A lot of fun.

Far From Home: Don't really understand the need for this rule. Balance wise, they aren't much stronger than most other warbands, and fluff-wise, there will probably be warbands from farther away which don't have the same restriction (you'll see when you face a Dark Elf or Arabyan Tomb Raider band.) I suggest you drop it.

I love the Knight Leadership rule- it gives you a strong, fluffy reason to use a mounted leader. Personally, I'd clean up the phrasing as follows:

Knight's Leadership: While the knightis mounted, all henchman and heroes in the warband within 12" of the knight may use the Knight-Leader's Leadership, rather than the usual range of 6". In addition, they treat the Knight-leader as having +1 Leadership, to a maximum of 10. Local recruits do not gain this bonus. This bonus applies to the Knight himself as well (meaning he gains +1 to his Leadership while mounted.)


Holy Artefacts: No such thing exists. Do you mean Holy Relics, or Magic Artefacts?

Sergeant & Squire: I don't really think the Sergeant is needed. As a warband gains TLGT from the Men & Archers, you'll make your own sergeants. For both balance and fluff, I suggest you drop the sergeant and start with 0-2 Squires, with the following rules:

0-2 Squires
Skills: Comb, Shoot, Speed
Equipment: May use any equipment from the men-at-arms and/or archer’s section.

Knighted (Squire only): The squire can be Knighted any only if at some point in the campaign he took out of action a large opponent, a multi-wound opponent, or an enemy warband’s leader. When knighted, the squire becomes a Bretonnian knight and gains +1 weapon skill and + 1 leadership. If the leader is taken out of action, the knight with the highest leader is mounted, all models within 6" of him may use his leadership, and he counts as having +1 Leader, to a max of 10. In addition, he may now learn Strength Skills. However, he loses access to Shooting Skills, and may only use weapons and equipment from the Bretonnian Knight equipment list- he may no longer use any type of missile weapon except for Holy Water.


This makes Squires not "junior knights", but useful bowmen- but switching them over means they drop their bows and pick up lances for REAL.

Henchmen; DROP the leadership. First of all, you have Peasant Archers with warrior stats for only 20gc each (no no.) Second, you have an awesome "+1 Leadership, 12" range Knight" bonus.... to have a peasant go from a 7 to a 9 is nice... to have a Peasant go from Ld5 or 6 to a 9 makes it a HUGE boost. The lower the base HG, the more flavorful the warband becomes. They are the knight-themed equal to the Skaven- cheap and plentiful, but if you take out the knight, the structure is weakened significantly.

Local Recruits: I don't really like these guys. They undercut the whole flavor of the warband. If you do insist on keeping them, here's what I suggest:

0-8 Men at Arms - 20gc
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6
Bretonnians: The Men at arms use the leadership of a Mounted Knight Leader if within 12" of the Knight Leader. They treat the leader as having +1 Ld, to a max of 10.
Far From Home: Must pass "far from home" rolls to find a Man at Arms.

0 Local Retinue - 25gc
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6
Not Bretonnians: The locals aren't moved by the bretonnian ways. They do not use the Knight's Leadership special rule, and may only use the Leader's normal leadership value and only within the normal range (6"). They may never learn Bretonnian special skills.
Near Home: The Local Retinue ignore the "far from home" special rule, and may always be found.


Thus, the local boys are more expensive and without the bonuses, but can be bought any time. Again, I still suggest dropping them, they don't really fit- if you drop "far from home", they're not necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 17:55

StyrofoamKing: Far From Home: Don't really understand the need for this rule. Balance wise, they aren't much stronger than most other warbands...

I think they are a bit, and this rule and You talk funny, mister are there to balance them out. They have a stronger-than-average mix of heroes (captain, three champion variants, only one youngblood) and access to some good henchmen.

StyrofoamKing:... and fluff-wise, there will probably be warbands from farther away which don't have the same restriction (you'll see when you face a Dark Elf or Arabyan Tomb Raider band.) I suggest you drop it.

Can't argue with your logic there. Except the warbands you mention weren't designed to be in Mordheim, and these lads are.

StyrofoamKing: I love the Knight Leadership rule- it gives you a strong, fluffy reason to use a mounted leader. Personally, I'd clean up the phrasing as follows:

Knight's Leadership: While the knight is mounted, all henchman and heroes in the warband within 12" of the knight may use the Knight-Leader's Leadership, rather than the usual range of 6". In addition, they treat the Knight-leader as having +1 Leadership, to a maximum of 10. Local recruits do not gain this bonus. This bonus applies to the Knight himself as well (meaning he gains +1 to his Leadership while mounted.)

Have to think on this one. It is actually wordier, and I don't think it says anything not in the original. But it does negate the main reason I stuck the Bretonnian special rule on everyone, and changing it would maybe let me drop that special rule (not a bad thing). I would need to make a similar change to the banner, but that's OK.

StyrofoamKing: Holy Artefacts: No such thing exists. Do you mean Holy Relics, or Magic Artefacts?

Yup, should have said "Holy relic".

StyrofoamKing: Sergeant & Squire: I don't really think the Sergeant is needed. As a warband gains TLGT from the Men & Archers, you'll make your own sergeants. For both balance and fluff, I suggest you drop the sergeant and start with 0-2 Squires, with the following rules... . This makes Squires not "junior knights", but useful bowmen- but switching them over means they drop their bows and pick up lances for REAL.

The sergeant is superior to any promoted henchmen - much better range of skills to draw from, which reflects his long years of service to the knight's family. RE: multiple squires... Warhammer uses the term "squires" to mean mounted yeomanry, not in the Medieval sense of the word - junior members of the aristocracy/knights-in-training. The original GW Bretonnian warband, schizophrenically, reflects both the Warhammer squire/yeoman (i.e. they can take bows) and the Medieval squire (one squire per knight; lose a knight and you lose his squire). My version is based on the Medieval use of the word - the knight's squire could be from his own family (even a little brother) or from an allied noble family, but either way he is a member of the aristocracy. Hence he has been trained to ride a warhorse and he has not been trained to fire a bow. And there is only one squire for the knight.

StyrofoamKing: Henchmen; DROP the leadership. First of all, you have Peasant Archers with warrior stats for only 20gc each (no no.)

A no-no and a typo - the stat line and the price were supposed to be the same as the human merc archers. (They are slightly inferior to the mercs in that they have fewer missile weapon options to choose from).

StyrofoamKing: Second, you have an awesome "+1 Leadership, 12" range Knight" bonus.... to have a peasant go from a 7 to a 9 is nice... to have a Peasant go from Ld5 or 6 to a 9 makes it a HUGE boost. The lower the base HG, the more flavorful the warband becomes. They are the knight-themed equal to the Skaven- cheap and plentiful, but if you take out the knight, the structure is weakened significantly.

I don't see the archers and men-at-arms as peasant militia, but rather the professional infantry that many noble houses kept (albeit usually in small numbers) as personal retainers. (Which also perhaps helps explain the Far from Home rule). Again, I am nudging them back a bit more to their historical counterparts, and perhaps away a bit from the Warhammer army list, which now has only mounted men-at-arms ("squires"), with no foot equivalent.

StyrofoamKing: Local Recruits: I don't really like these guys. They undercut the whole flavor of the warband ...

The local recruits do need to be adjusted to be more inferior. They, not the archers/men-at-arms, are the cheap and expendable henchmen. I don't think they undercut the flavor of the warband - they provide the knight with a tactical decision: go to the extra effort to recruit quality Bretonnian infantry, or hire cheaper local scum? The "Bretonniocity" is undermined if the knight chooses the latter option, but the game mechanic and the "background story" are consistent if he does.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 18:02

Again, thanks for the comments and suggestions. They are very helpful!
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 18:13

The other change to "Knight's Leadership" as I have it is that it only works with the Leader. It doesn't make sense to have multiple "leaders" running around at any given point, and with your henchman starting at LD7 each, it's not even that necessary.

Attempt #2., "A mounted knight gains +1 Leadership when mounted, to a max of Ld 10. If he is the leader, he has his range extended +6" (from 6" to 12"), and all henchmen and heroes within range may use his improved leadership. Hired Swords and Local Recruits may only use the normal range, and do not get the +1 Leadership bonus when using the Leader's leadership."

Thus, if your Knight dies and the Squire becomes the leader, and he has been knighted, he automatically gains the Knight's Leadership rule. (Maybe make a rule saying, "If the Knight dies, and there is a tie over which hero has the next highest leadership, a knighted squire will always be chosen over a non-knight".) Or, maybe give the Master of Horses access to the "Knight's Leadership" rule as a skill if he becomes leader.

To avoid confusion, I think you need to call the leader somethin' else... maybe "Knight of the Realm" or "Baron". Calling him "knight" over and over, while sometimes referencing the hero and sometimes to any knight is just too messy.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Mon 26 Sep 2011 - 20:20

Attempt #2., "A mounted knight gains +1 Leadership when mounted, to a max of Ld 10. If he is the leader, he has his range extended +6" (from 6" to 12"), and all henchmen and heroes within range may use his improved leadership. Hired Swords and Local Recruits may only use the normal range, and do not get the +1 Leadership bonus when using the Leader's leadership."

I like this version - thanks.

Point taken about the knight-captain and knight (ex-squire). Have to give it some thought.

Could always go with "questing knight" and "knight", I suppose.

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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Tue 27 Sep 2011 - 6:51

Name: As a questing knight, he has a reason to be roaming about... however, to me, a questing knight projects the air of self-chosen poverty and abstinance. With the hard-trained guards and retainers in this warband, the current leader smacks of money. This is why naming him a Knight of the Realm, Baron, or Vassal seems to fit better in my head.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Tue 27 Sep 2011 - 7:00

I'm going to run a stand alone fight Thursday and use these rules with my warband. I'll let you know how it goes.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Tue 27 Sep 2011 - 9:34

Something I noticed that I think should be fixed.
you have a max warband size of 15. you start with 5 heroes and your also maxing out your henchmen at 5 for M@A and Archers.
this means if you ever get any Warband size boost (cook book ext) you must get local recruites.
flavor wise I don't think this is good. Also if you want to avoid locals and you want an even more H2H based warband you have to get some.
maybe up the M@A and Archer maxes to 8 each; at least the M@A if you want to keep the archer restriction there.


edit: hope it's not missed.

maybe you could instead of the local recruites trade them out for 2 new henchmen.

0-1 Master of Hounds:
Not notable enough to be a hero but is stat wise a M@A's and able to take from the same list.
+5 GC to hire over a M@A
Special Rules:
Beast Master: Allowes your warband to hire Hunting Dogs.

0-3 Hunting dogs:
The noble wanted to bring hunting dogs with him and well here they are. Again nothing special, just your run of the mill dog like witch hunters have.
Special Rules:
Loyal: They can only use the leadership of the Master of Hounds for leadership test.
Animals: no exp
Common: they can be purchused with out the Far from home rules applying.

result is you have a henchmen group that fits the fluff better, is cheap and expendable.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Tue 27 Sep 2011 - 18:19

Excellent, Plutz - I'll be very interested to hear your feedback. Normally I would run them through some solo scenarios for test purposes, but we are in serious clean-the-house-for-the-Halloween-party mode. In November, maybe. Although I am hoping to start a collaborative campaign using a campaign my brother is currently polishing up... and I am going to try my revised shadow elves there. Unless the Bretonnians whack them up the side of the head and take their place. Which would require some additional painting when I should be cleaning.

Might go with "Questing Knight", StyrofoamKing. Going to let that issue percolate a bit, and see if inspiration strikes (I am perfectly happy for it to strike someone else, as long as you report in!).

I like the idea of a master of the hounds and the pooches, pervavita, but I think adding them would strengthen a warband I suspect is already pretty robust. Hmmm... maybe you should develop this idea as a hired sword?

I am not sure I mind that a maxed out warband would have to have some local recruits... what do the rest of you think? I don't have a strong opinion on this issue one way or t'other.

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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Tue 27 Sep 2011 - 18:31

i'm with you weaver, i think only being able to fill out additional spots with local recruits makes perfect sense, especially with the fluff related to halfling scouts and cook books. The whole idea behind them is the smell of the cooking attracts close by warriors. Hard to attract more men with cooking from hundreds of miles away.
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Wed 28 Sep 2011 - 9:18

Well for you "Knight" the way it is now doesn't work as your Squire gets promoted to the exact same name; so i think leave the Squire to "Bretonnian Knight" works fine.
for your Questing Knight I do agree with you on that they hang up there lance, lands, and wealth doesn't exactly fit here; though case by case fluff wise it can; just as fluff wise a Grail Knight could fit.
This leads me to this alternative. Don't call them a Knight of one of the 4 orders and make that the players choice. Instead take the heroic aproach and call him a "Paladin". This allows an open fluff for indaviduals to chose "what" order they are from and still gives him the Bretonnian feel and fluff.

oh and I plan to build this warband up and play test it soon. I think this is a great list; though a change (the peseants LD lowered).
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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Wed 28 Sep 2011 - 10:31

Still thinking about titles. I kind of like "Bretonnian knight" for the captain, but need something to more clearly distinguish a promoted squire. Could go with Knight-Lieutenant, or maybe "junior knight", but neither of those options seems just right to me. Also considering "bannerman",

Very interested in your feedback after you have run them (and, indeed, your build as you assemble the band), Pervavita.

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PostSubject: Re: Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue   Wed 28 Sep 2011 - 10:59

will do.
Should have the build latter today if i find the time.

For the name, the names you give above I think (Bannerman or Knight Lieutnant) would fit in historical context but I don't think they fit in with the fluff of Bretonnia; thats why I was going with Pally for lthe leader and maybe Knight Errant for the promoted Squire. both fit the fluff.
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