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 Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29

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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 14:55

My group and I are thinking about revising the skaven list, cause A) theres a guy who plays a Clan Pestilens army and he'd like some crossover and B) the current skaven list could probably use a little toning down.

Where we're running into an issue is whether we should make four different lists, or one big list with options for everything (though not alot of crossover). You wouldn't be able to have an adept and plague monks or anything like that, but it would all be compiled. I like things being organized like that, but it would also practically be an army list, which isn't particularly mordheim-y.

Any thoughts on this? Also, any suggestions for moulder and skyre? We're not as knowledgeable on those two. We do know the rat ogre won't be in the Eshin list anymore.


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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 15:22

I'd keep the lists separate. One big list wouldn't feel right as you mentioned.

There are rules for Skyre and Moulder floating around. There is a Skyre list on Mordheimer I think and in Relics of the Crusades and on Accursed Knowledge (not sure if some of these are the same). There are some rules for Moulder on Clan Pestilen but I'm not sure of the quality. Might be food for thought at least.

Edited to add... Also do a search on this forum. There are other Skaven warband ideas floating around. I think there is a more 'pure' Clan Eshin warband and I think that Pathfinder Dubstyles had a thread to remove some of the ambiguity from one of the Clan Skyre warband lists. This may all be useful to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 18:12

What lemming said.

The default one is Eshin, there's a Pestilans clan list in existance (although the S2, T2 youngbloods make people scratch their heads), and there's a Skyre list in Relics. The Relics one is good, but it's set in a pre-gunpowder age, so you have to remember to add the Warlock Pistols back on to the list.

So, other than Moulder (which had a version on this thread, http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5744-full-unofficial-rule-book-pdf-web-browser-and-more), you're pretty much out of major clans.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 9:17

I'd like to note that even though people are constantly crying cheese at the skaven player. It is rather hard to play.
Having that ridiculously low LD is a pain, so just 2 crossbowmen from an elevated position can quickly take out your command structure and wreck havoc on your economy. All you need to do is really just stopping the sling madness. Which can be done by making slings the exact same weapon as a bow (yeah not a short bow, a bow is more realistic and more expensive). Sure the Skaven get some range, but they lose the 2 stones of death and 8GP per sling they want to field. So they can't make the skaven sling spam, as well (they get only 3/4 of their usual amount of rats this way at least).

Clan Pestilens (From TC29) is pretty ridiculous, those characters go crazy fast. And suddenly all your warband is crazed and wielding flails or two-handers. Which rips things apart when they charge, IIRC there was an Errata that made the youngbloods S3/T3.

Never played with Skryre or Moulder, I did a Moulder themed list with the core rules (I was allowed the beastlash instead of weeping blades and fighting claws, but it was essentially the basic list), but apart from that, which worked fine, I can't comment on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Thu 22 Sep 2011 - 1:18

I think the main problem, if there is one, with the eshin list is the low price of the heroes, and the possibility to get six heroes from start. The pestilence list need some trimming (six heroes thingy, the price of plague monks) but their good stuff is kind of expensive so other than that perhaps it balances out. Perhaps access to flails and/or plague censers could be limited somewhat. Also, pestilence warband has a fifteen warrior limit, which tones them down a bit. Personally, I don't find slingspam to be that much of a problem (slings are weak compared to longbows and crossbows, IMHO), and if it might become one, go for a harsh WYSIWYG-approach, the model must have a sling!
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Thu 22 Sep 2011 - 13:46

all things to think about.

I'm getting started on this, but one thing I've noticed while browsing all the various skaven lists is that all their leaders have S4... which seems odd. I'm thinking of nixing that as I can't really think of a reason for it. Thoughts on all skaven leaders starting at S3?
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Thu 22 Sep 2011 - 21:00

I am currently watching one of our veteran players adapt to the Clan Eshin list. He has struggled to win games because of the low leadership of Skaven. He has also struggled with adapting his tactics from mercenary warbands to the Eshin list. Clan Eshin has historically been one of the favorite warbands of our cheese gamers, but I do agree it is a difficult warband to master.

Strength 4.

The higher strength of the Skaven hero is balanced by his lower leadership and the weapon and skill options available to the warband. The skaven player has to take on the high toughness/high wound warbands like Undead and Possessed with St 3 missile weapons and crap leadership. Fear causers can waltz into the middle of a skaven band and figure that half of the warriors will fail their leadership test to charge. They can count on their higher T to negate most of the missile attacks.

St 4 heroes means that those skaven who pass their fear test can at least wound half of the time if they can hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 1:01

Also, Skaven effectively cannot tarot cards (not without great risk), cannot get heavy armour, cannot get long range (which means they *can't* turtle, even if they want to), can't use cathayan silks to offset their leadership, can't use either the merchant *or* the bounty hunter to increase their income, etc. Yes, they have a lot of slings and if you walk your warband in the open into a hail of slingfire you will get shot to pieces, but that is a sub-optimal strategy to use against Skaven anyway. If you have lots of terrain they should only be able to get you with one or two slings anyway and if you have hardly any terrain then you can stand back at 24" and shoot them with your bows until they come to you.

They do start with 6 heroes, but two of those heroes are glorified henchmen. Heck, they even only get access to henchman gear so you still have to use skills for them to let them use any of the actually good Skaven gear.

Granted, the sling is cheap, but it is one of the crappest long-term weapons in the game. Can't use quickshot, can't use hunting arrows, nimble, hunter, and pistoleer don't do anything for it.

In my experience Skaven do well at the start and OK during the middle, but unless they really capitalise on their start they are in for a rough ride from middle to end of the campaign as everyone elses more expensive toys come online.

Yes, Skaven are a top-tier warband, but they are not alone in that slot and, in practice, it doesn't take much in any given campaign for a specific mid-tier warband to outperform a top- tier one.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 2:52

whiskeytango wrote:
all things to think about.

I'm getting started on this, but one thing I've noticed while browsing all the various skaven lists is that all their leaders have S4... which seems odd. I'm thinking of nixing that as I can't really think of a reason for it. Thoughts on all skaven leaders starting at S3?

Would be silly, the skaven leaders are supposed to be pretty good fighters, at least able to match the middenheim warband in a straight up fight. This is balanced, since skaven haven't got the equipment varity that Middenheimers have (they have long range with crossbows, awesome close combat with Duelling Pistols, and no need for a later Weapons training increase to get a two-hander). Neither do they have the same access to Hired Swords.

Lord 0 wrote:
Also, Skaven effectively cannot tarot cards (not without great risk), cannot get heavy armour, cannot get long range (which means they *can't* turtle, even if they want to), can't use cathayan silks to offset their leadership, can't use either the merchant *or* the bounty hunter to increase their income, etc. Yes, they have a lot of slings and if you walk your warband in the open into a hail of slingfire you will get shot to pieces, but that is a sub-optimal strategy to use against Skaven anyway. If you have lots of terrain they should only be able to get you with one or two slings anyway and if you have hardly any terrain then you can stand back at 24" and shoot them with your bows until they come to you.

They do start with 6 heroes, but two of those heroes are glorified henchmen. Heck, they even only get access to henchman gear so you still have to use skills for them to let them use any of the actually good Skaven gear.

Granted, the sling is cheap, but it is one of the crappest long-term weapons in the game. Can't use quickshot, can't use hunting arrows, nimble, hunter, and pistoleer don't do anything for it.

In my experience Skaven do well at the start and OK during the middle, but unless they really capitalise on their start they are in for a rough ride from middle to end of the campaign as everyone elses more expensive toys come online.

Yes, Skaven are a top-tier warband, but they are not alone in that slot and, in practice, it doesn't take much in any given campaign for a specific mid-tier warband to outperform a top- tier one.
This is one of the best summaries on why skaven isn't an overpowered warband IMO.

Yeah, they seem deadly from the sheer mass, but a thinking warband wouldn't walk into the line of fire of 10+ models. At economy, although they start strong (just as strong as the sisters), they wont gain much after getting wyrdstone pendulums and Rabbits Feet. Tarot Cards are too dangerous, unless you want to Unholy Relic it, which isn't always the best idea.

Actually to go more in depth. Lets look at the tactics the other warbands in the core rulebook could use against the skaven.

Mercenaries - Crossbows & Longbows in an elevated position can force the skaven leader to stay hidden and/or in total cover. If he goes down, the entire mass of rats is reduced to LD 5, meaning they are worthless against any fear check they have to make. Mercenaries are easily able to take out the command structure of a skaven warband, which severely hinder them. As soon as the skaven leader is down, they are routing on 7+. So they will probably rout as soon as 25% casualties are caused.
Witch Hunters - See Mercenaries.
Sisters of Sigmar - Granted, these chicks aren't the best start-up warband, they do have a good economy, and the possibility for it to grow grand. They can still line up a bunch of slings. And when you close in, the fact that most of them could either be using whips to get extra attacks or hammers to squish the rats. Sisters of Sigmar becomes a fun opponent for the skaven, since, while they have almost the same strengths, the SoS loses numbers & speed for leadership and weapons.
Undead - This becomes much of a cat and mouse (rat?) game, where you should try to hit the skaven leader with either a charge or a missile weapon. And the skaven should try to stop you. Since everyone but 4 of your weakest fighters in the undead warband cause fear. Anything that is not within 7" of the leader pretty much can't charge, so they'll fire at you with slings and throwing knives instead. Also, ghouls wreck havoc on skaven lives, and their heroes make good zombies. So charging in by using a bit of cover to hide from those slings isn't a bad idea.
Possessed - Possessed are much like a hammer, they have one trick, but it usually works and they do it well. Throw a bunch of possessed and beastmen in there (mutants can come once they get a few levels to make them beefier), and kill everything that moves (while the rest of the warband skirmishes). This tactic still works against skaven, but you can't run straight at them, instead you should try to hide a few times in cover, and then suddenly charge. A possessed with sprint can turn out to be a very nasty surprise for an unsuspecting skaven hero.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 4:52

+1 to Lord 0 and Master about Skaven in core rulebook. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 12:26

oh wow. Thanks for the replies guys. While i agree with most of what was said, I was really just looking for a fluffy reason why all the skaven leaders would have S4. The adept I can understand, but the master moulder, plague priest, and chief engineer also having it is a bit harder to buy.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 12:31

Then give them something else to compensate:

Master Moulder: Packleader - all heroes and henchman within 12" may use his leadership, rather than the usual 6".

Engineer: He's a caster. Done and done.

Plague Priest: He's got T4, so it balances out. Maybe he has Immune to psych too.


If you want to have several Skaven lists that fit the "theme" of the Eshin one, they need:

4 strong heroes
2 young blood heroes

0+ verminkin
0-? weak troops
0-1 big thing (rat ogre, mechanical rat ogre, rat spawn, etc.)

The skaven may have awesome heroes, but they have weeeeak henchman. It's partially a balance issue, but it also sells their "strength"- they are strong en masse, but weak over all. This is part of the reason I loathe the Assassin (elite skaven warband) on the Mordheimer site... it misses the point entirely.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 14:49

thanks styro, thats exactly the kind of input i'm looking for. I'm probably still going to be keeping the "big thing" off the eshin list as it just doesn't fit the idea of a covert assassin band. Have any ideas on what could replace it?
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 14:58

Not sure how this could work but you could use something like the Merc list use. you chose what Merc band your going to use (or in this case Rat) and it specifies a bonus. I don't know the fluff of most WHFB armies so can't say how or what here to make it work best but i think that may work to make it easier to work over all.

Another alternative is have more heroes open but once you chose a spacific hero say Plauge Rat hero you lose the option of the other special heroes.
this i don't like nearly as well but may work in some way with the first option in that you chose the Clan and that opens up heroes or henchmen that are that clan only.

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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 15:13

i would really like to be able to do it like that, but unfortunately the options for the clans have to be much more significantly different than just a bonus like the mercs have would provide. I was also considering doing the huge list with restrictions once you've made certain decisions, but it was decided that that would end up being too un-mordheim like. Also, I feel like with separate lists it'll be alot easier to iron out broken things than if everything was all mixed together.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 15:58

whiskeytango wrote:
"big thing"

The question is also what impact the lack of option of a big thing has on the warband and what, if any, boost in another area is needed.

Perhaps a restricted number of infiltrating henchmen?
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 16:07

Dribble Joy wrote:
Perhaps a restricted number of infiltrating henchmen?

i like that idea alot. Tons more flavorful than an ogre. Thats definitely some food for thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 16:21

Well we probably have three choices; elite, regular and weak.

0-3 Infiltrating Assassin Novices (black skaven stats) 40-45 gc each.
0-5 Infiltrating Verminkin at say... 30gc each.
0-7 Infiltrating Gutter Runners (night runner stats) at 25gc each.

You would also of course have to consider weapon lists. Infiltrating henchmen with slings is a frightening prospect.


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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 16:22

Fluffy reasons Skaven leaders should have St 4.

Pestilens--The priest is a mutated, diseased mass of walking corruption. He is unnaturally strong and has an unnatural vitality as a reward for his devotion to his gods.

Moulder--The pack leader (or whatever its called) is a creature of great physical strength due to the nature of its work which consitsts of long hours spent subduing and training large, mutated creatures.

Skyre--what list or whose list are you looking at? The Accursed Knowledge link provided above leads to a list that features a St 3 Warlock Engineer. The list is an update of the Relics list.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 16:41

@dribble: I think verminkin would be the way to go, but probably a much stricter limitation on their numbers. 3 tops is what I'm thinking.

@von kurst:

Pestilens: i'm ok with the devotion making him tougher, but not stronger too. Especially since it makes him as strong and as tough as a vampire, which just isn't right. Not to mention that pestilens has alot going for it even without the leader hitting like a battering ram right off the bat.

Moulder: that I can see, though I've always kind of considered the master moulder as more of the Dr. Frankenstein type. The brilliant geneticist, not the one who actually does the catching.

Skyre: the list I'm looking at is from a pdf I have that compiles practically practically every bit of tested rules for mordheim into a new rulebook. I think it was posted on here, but I can't remember. In the list though, theres the chief engineer who is the leader and s4, and then theres also a lesser warlock engineer who is a normal hero and s3
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 16:54

whiskeytango wrote:
@dribble: I think verminkin would be the way to go, but probably a much stricter limitation on their numbers. 3 tops is what I'm thinking.

True, it's a replacement for the ogre, rather than a radical redefining of the list.

Quote :
Pestilens:

What about some poison theme aside from the flails and things? Easier access to poisons, poison grenades and the like?

Quote :
Moulder:

Paid mutations for henchmen?

Quote :
Skyre:

The regular list allows a warplock version of pistols; why not warplock handguns and long rifles (jezzails)?
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 17:53

whiskeytango wrote:
@dribble: I think verminkin would be the way to go, but probably a much stricter limitation on their numbers. 3 tops is what I'm thinking.

@von kurst:

Pestilens: i'm ok with the devotion making him tougher, but not stronger too. Especially since it makes him as strong and as tough as a vampire, which just isn't right. Not to mention that pestilens has alot going for it even without the leader hitting like a battering ram right off the bat.

Moulder: that I can see, though I've always kind of considered the master moulder as more of the Dr. Frankenstein type. The brilliant geneticist, not the one who actually does the catching.

Skyre: the list I'm looking at is from a pdf I have that compiles practically practically every bit of tested rules for mordheim into a new rulebook. I think it was posted on here, but I can't remember. In the list though, theres the chief engineer who is the leader and s4, and then theres also a lesser warlock engineer who is a normal hero and s3

Pestilens--well why not? The TC warband has 2 very weak hero choices to accompany the Priest, lower numbers and expensive special equipment AND still has the inherent skaven leadership issue. It still has to compete with the vampires, possessed, etc of the warhammer world. I've used the warband for one campaign and fought against it in others. If anything I would recommend strengthening the weakest heroes, a more 'pestilens' spell list and fussing with the special equipment, but we've always used it as is with no problems.

Moulder--perhaps you are thinking of the army general lurking in his hidden burrow? Not the lowly squad leader grubbing around the ruins of some human city looking for specimens to please his demanding overlords? Mordiem is small unit, low level.

Skyre--I have not read that list. The rulebook has indeed been posted on this forum a couple of times, but I haven't gotten around to reading it.

Like Rational Lemming I would recommend the Accursed Knowledge list as one that has similar ideas to your own in an already published form. Since it was published on the old Specialist games site with the Relics campaign it has a wider audience as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Fri 23 Sep 2011 - 20:49

alright, got started on a sketch up of the pestilens list. I like where its headed. As I think I've made clear, I don't like skaven leaders (with the exception of eshin) starting at S4, so I took that away from the Plague Priest, but I tried to make up for with A) adding an additional hero with T4, B) having three hero types that start immune to disease, and C) adding special weapons that never wound on less than 4+. I'm not sure if I should make them immune to disease AND poison, or just disease though. Also, I'm looking for advice on pricing, hence why not has been added so far. Also, the movement changes on the giant rats and ogre were intentional, to reflect them being bloated with disease. Here we go:

Clan Pestilens: 15 member max, plus up to 3 addition infected giant rats or slaves

Equipment:
Heros:
Dagger - 1st free, 2nd 2wt
Club - 3wt
Sword - 10wt
Spear - 10wt
Halberd - 10wt
Plagued Dagger - 8wt*
Plagued Sword - 15wt*
Censer - 30wt*
Sling - 2wt
Warplock Pistol/Brace - 35wt/70wt
Helmet - 10wt
Shield - 5wt
Light Armor - 20wt

* - special cost available at creation.

Henchmen:
Dagger - 1st free, 2nd 2wt
Club - 3wt
Sword - 10wt
Spear - 10wt
Sling - 2wt
Helmet - 10wt
Shield - 5wt
Light Armor - 20wt

Hero:

1 Plague Priest:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 4 1 5 1 7

Combat, Str, Speed, Shooting, Academic, Special
Immune to disease

0-2 Plague Monks:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 3 3 4 1 5 1 6

Combat, Str, Speed, Special
Immune to disease

0-1 Festering Sorcerer:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 3 3 4 1 5 1 6

Speed, Shooting, Academic, Special
Uses rituals of Nurgle, replacing daemonic vigor and nurgles rot with the magic of the horned rat spells children of the horned rat (which will summon infected giant rats) and black fury, respectively
immune to disease

0-2 Monk Initiates:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 2 3 2 2 1 4 1 4

Str, Combat, Speed, Special
_______________________

Monk Novices

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 3 3 3 1 4 1 5

Slave Rats

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 2 2 3 3 1 4 1 2

count as half for route tests

Infected giant rats

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 2 0 3 3 1 4 1 4

infected bloat: when taken out of action, infected plague rats explode, cause 1 S3 hit with no armor saves to every model not immune to disease within 4" of it. May be shot at by same warband members, even when in combat.

Plagued Rat-Ogre

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 3 5 5 3 4 3 4

Plague Spew: range: special str: 3 special rules: no armor save, 1 shot per game, range 1" wide, 6" long line hitting everything in between

Special Equipment:

Plagued dagger/plagued sword: same rules as respective weapons, always wounds on a 4+ or better against targets not immune to disease. Dagger 15wt, Sword 25wt.
Censer: flail, after an unsaved wound the victim makes take a toughness test, which if failed will cause an additional wound. A roll of 6 always fails. Causes enemies -1 to hit from shooting. Any user not immune to disease must take a toughness test every turn. If it is failed, the bearer suffers a S3 hit with no save possible. 40wt.

Skills:

as per TC #29
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StyrofoamKing
Etheral
Etheral


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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Sat 24 Sep 2011 - 4:25

Initiates - you can give them S3 T3. I really don't see any need not to.

Immune to Poison sounds fair, as the two are often linked together. This is doubly important with the Plague Swords, as no models have "immune to disease" in their actual rules, only in their flavor test. Have it say "immune to poison" for that one at least.

Infected Rats: Would only make sense to have them explode if they died, I think. Maybe roll to see if they die? Also, 4" is a WIDE spread... maybe 2", or 1D3"?

Special Unit: as a possible thought, a Ratspawn (a rat-like chaos spawn) or a Censer-bearer elite unit would be a flavorful alternative to the Ogre. Just a thought.

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Pervavita
Venerable Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Sat 24 Sep 2011 - 9:13

Infected giant rats; not sure about there death pop being S3, maybe S2 as it negates armor and is an AoE bonus.
4" is a bit much as said above.
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PostSubject: Re: Skaven List Revising: Clans Mors and Eshin Lists pg2 9/29   Today at 2:58

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