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 Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.

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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 12:41

**Chaos Dwarf v2.0**

So i've incorporated some changes that people brought up here and on toms, and fleshed everything out a little bit more. A few of the big things are: no more hobbos not counting towards route tests, no more chaos armor at creation, limited number of CD henchmen, fixed Hobbo stats, uniformly raised hiring prices, add special skill list incorporating a modified blessings of the shadowlord esque table, added a stone curse table for the sorcerer.

_______________________________________________________________

CD Special Rules:

Hard to Kill, Hard Head, and Armor as per Dwarf Treasure Hunters list.
There can be only one!: Only one Hobgoblin can ever be promoted to a hero via TLGT at a time. If another Hobgoblin group ever rolls TLGT, the result is ignored, and a member of that group is killed by the existing Hobgoblin hero. If the existing Hobgoblin hero is ever killed or leaves the warband, then another one can have the chance of rolling TLGT.


CD Warrior Equipment list:

CC:
Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Mace - 3gc
Axe - 5gc
Steel Whip - 10gc
Dwarf Axe - 15gc**
Halberd - 10gc
2-Handed Axe - 20gc
Obsidian Weapon - 5x price/4x price*/**

Ranged:
Pistol/Brace -15gc/30gc**

Armor:
Light Armor - 10gc
Heavy Armor - 25gc
Obsidian Armor - 75gc*/**
Helmet - 10gc
Shield - 5gc

CD Stormbreaker Equipment List:

CC:
Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Mace - 3gc
Black Smiths Hammer - 5gc*
Axe - 5gc
Dwarf Axe - 15gc**

Ranged:
Pistol/brace - 15gc/30gc
Handgun - 35gc
Blunderbuss - 30gc

Armor:
Light Armor - 10gc
Heavy Armor - 25gc
Obsidian Armor - 75gc*/**
Helmet - 10gc
Shield - 5gc

Hobgoblin Equipment List:

CC:
Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Club - 3gc
Sword - 10gc
Steel Whip - 10gc
Spear - 10gc

Ranged:
Short Bow - 5gc
Steppes Bow - 10gc

Armor:
Light Armor - 10gc
Helmet - 10gc
Shield - 5gc

* - Price only effective at creation, and if the warband includes a daemonsmith
** - Heroes only

Overseer starts with 20 experience, and access to Strength, Combat, Shooting, and Special skills
Apprentice Sorcerer starts with 10 Experience, and access to Strength, Academic, and Special Skills
Daemonsmith starts with 10 Experience, and access to Strength, Shooting, Academic, and Special Skills
Obsidian Guard starts with 8 Experience, and access to Strength, Combat, Shooting, and Special Skills


Chaos Dwarves:

1 Overseer - 80gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 4 4 3 4 1 2 1 9

Weapons/Armor: Overseers choose from the CD Warriors equipment list.

Special Rules:
Leader: Any model within 6" of the Overseer may use his leadership.

0-1 Apprentice Sorcerer - 55gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 3 3 3 4 1 2 1 8

Weapons/Armor: Apprentice sorcerers choose from the CD Warriors equipment list

Special Rules:
The Stone Curse: Every time the apprentice sorcerer gains an advancement, roll a D6. On a 5+, he suffers from one of the effects of The Stone Curse. Consult the following chart:

1. -1 Move
2. -1 WS
3. - 1 I
4. No effect
5. +1 Armor Save
6. + 1 Wound

May not increase a stat more than 1 point over max stats, will not reduce below 1.

Priest of Hashut: The Sorcerer is a magic user and uses the Rituals of Hashut spells listed below. (i'll be using the great magic list written for the Black Dwarves from BTB, so I won't actually list it all here on this draft)

0-1 Daemonsmith - 40gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 3 3 3 4 1 2 1 7

Weapons/Armor: Daemonsmiths choose from the CD Stormbreakers equipment list

Special Rules:
Handy with repairs: starts with "black smith" skill (my group plays with this big list of damaged equipment rules we made up, and black smith is a skill made to allow a character to skill the exploration phase and instead repair two pieces of equipment)
Firepower: A warband that includes a Daemonsmith adds +1 str to their blunderbusses.


0-1 Obsidian Guard - 45gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7

Weapons/Armor: Obsidian Guards choose from the CD Warriors equipment list

Special Rules:
Guards Weapons: Wounds caused by Obsidian Guards using a weapon that requires two hands add +1 to injury rolls
________________

0-3 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 35gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 4 3 3 4 1 2 1 7

Weapons/Armor: CD Warriors choose from the CD Warriors equipment list

0-3 Chaos Dwarf Stormbreakers - 35gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 3 4 3 4 1 2 1 7

Weapons/Armor: CD Stormbreakers choose from the CD Stormbreakers list

0+ Hobgoblins - 20gc

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 2 1 6

Weapons/Armor: Hobgoblins choose from the Hobgoblin List

Out for themselves: a hobgoblin will never intercept a charge
and the dwarves know it: Hobgoblins taken out of action count as 1/2 a warband member for purposes of when a route test is forced.
Despised: Hobgoblins treachery during the Black Orc rebellion is well known amongst the other Greenskins, who do not tolerate such backstabbing. All orcs and goblins hate Hobgoblins.

Chaos Dwarf Special Skills:

Extra Tough, Thick Skull, Resource Hunter, and True Grit as per Dwarf Treasure Hunters list, all chaos dwarves only.
Sneaky Git: Hobgoblin Heroes only - when charged, the Hobgoblin can retreat D6 inches. If this takes him out of the chargers range, the charge is failed.
Blessing of Hashut: Chaos Dwarf heroes only. This "skill" can be taken multiple times, but any duplicate results are re-rolled, with the exception of results of 7-8. The Chaos Dwarf makes a pilgrimage to a temple of hashut hidden in the worlds edge mountains. There he implores the dark god for his blessing. Roll 2d6, and consult the following chart:

2 Wrath of Hashut: Hashut has taken offensive, and causes the dwarf to combust in a blazing inferno. Remove the hero and all his equipment from the roster
3-6 Nothing Happens: The prayer of the hero fall on deaf ears, and he receives no benefits from this outing.
7-8 Trial of Flame: Hashut offers the hero a gift, but only if he can survive the torment of flame. Roll a D6. On a roll of 1, your character loses a single point from characteristics, chosen by you. If the result is 2 or more, roll another d6. On a roll of 1-3 he gains bull like horns, which give him an additional attack in close combat at normal str and armor save. This attack can take him above his normal maximum of attacks on his profile. On a roll of 4-6, he gains cloven hooves, and gains +1 M. If this is rolled more than once, the hero automatically gains the bonus he doesn't already have.
9-10 Chaos armor: Hashut offers his eternal protection. The dwarfs body because covered in arcane armor, giving him a 4+ sv, but does not restrict his movement, initiative, or ability to cast spells
11 Daemon Weapon: Hashut offers one of his minions. One close combat weapon that the dwarf is equipped with gains a bound daemon, giving it +1 strength.
12 In his own image: Hashut offers one of his greatest rewards. If the hero is an Overseer, Daemonsmith, Obsidian Guard, or promoted Chaos Dwarf, he is mutated into one of the revered bull centaurs. The character gains +3 movement, +1 toughness, and +1 attacks. However his new body is not without its limits, and the sudden change in physiology can cause some difficulty in attachment. The character loses -1 WS, -1 BS, and d3 skills, chosen by the player. The character may also no longer climb, and becomes a large target. If the Hero is an Apprentice Sorcerer, he may add +1 to his Difficulty rolls, and if he is suffering from the effects of the Curse of Stone, one of those effects is removed, chosen by the player. Note, if he only has a beneficial effect, then it too must be removed.

Special Equipment:

Obsidian Weapons: Obsidian Weapons add +1 Strength, but also take away -1 In. from that weapons attacks in close combat. Any weapon may be bought as an obsidian weapon (except steel whips, cause come on, how would that work?) for 5x the regular price of the weapon
Obsidian Armor: Obsidian armor grants a 5+ save. If the model loses a wound to a spell, roll 1d6: on a roll of 4+, the attacking caster suffers 1 S4 hit. Obsidian Armor also cause -1M and -1In for its wearers, except for Dwarves with the "armor" special rule. 100gc, rare 11
Steppes Bow: Range: 16" Str: 3 Special Rules: Mobile: A model armed with a Steppes bow does not suffer the -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting. 10gc, rare 6. (Hobgoblins only)


Last edited by whiskeytango on Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 10:39; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 15:22

If you go on Border Town Burning there are very good rules for the Chaos Dwarfes
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 15:36

yeah, i know all about those, but we wanted something different. I knew i should have put a disclaimer saying "please don't direct me towards the BTB list"
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 15:55

Obsidian armour/weapons? Is that simply renamed gromril or are there rules somewhere for them somewhere else?

Not sure about the pricing in some cases. The Obsidian Guard seems a bit cheap.

And the Dwarves Know It. This is way too powerful, cheap cannon fodder you could literally send in unarmed to swamp the opponent without risk.
I'd suggest altering this to a similar one that Da Mob uses for goblins - they count as half a model for route tests.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 18:46

Dribble Joy wrote:
Obsidian armour/weapons? Is that simply renamed gromril or are there rules somewhere for them somewhere else?

Not sure about the pricing in some cases. The Obsidian Guard seems a bit cheap.

And the Dwarves Know It. This is way too powerful, cheap cannon fodder you could literally send in unarmed to swamp the opponent without risk.
I'd suggest altering this to a similar one that Da Mob uses for goblins - they count as half a model for route tests.

Obsidian Weapons: Whoops, forgot I haven't posted those here. Obsidian weapons are like ithilmar and gromil except they're +1S/-1I. Obsidian armor is 4+ sv, -1 M/-1I, and for every wound saved on a roll of 4-6, the attacker is struck with a S2 attack. Usually 100gc, dropped to 75gc for these guys at creation. Its worth mentioning that all armor with us is around half cost of the official rules.

Costs: I'd be fine with upping the price. I mostly compared their prices to their treasure hunter counter parts. The main comparison for the Obsidian Guard was vs the Treasure Hunter Engineer. For the most part their stats are identical, but the engineer costs 10gc more, has 2 Ld more, and a warband wide special rule compared to the guards special rule that only effects him and requires a kind of weapon that isn't optimal until you have a skill. Really, I'm not sure he "needs" a special rule, i just thought it'd be a nice way to differentiate him more from a regular warrior. Was there anything else you thought was under priced? I'll try to explain my reasoning if I have actually have any.

And the dwarves know it: you really think so? I kind of felt like them not counting towards your warbands strength really evened it out. I'm not terribly attached to it, and I'd be fine with switching to the normal goblin one, I just thought it'd be nice to make them a little different.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 5:31

whiskeytango wrote:
Obsidian weapons are like ithilmar and gromil except they're +1S/-1I.

I like the concept, though bare in mind that +1 Str is better than Gromril.
The -1 Int seems like a reasonable hindrance, but given their lower speed there's less chance to charge and thus strike first. If you're charged, the reduction doesn't matter, if by chance you strike at initiative order, then given the base Int 2, you'll probably strike last anyway, so it doesn't come into effect.
4 times the price at least.

Quote :
Obsidian armor is 4+ sv, -1 M/-1I, and for every wound saved on a roll of 4-6, the attacker is struck with a S2 attack. Usually 100gc, dropped to 75gc for these guys at creation. Its worth mentioning that all armor with us is around half cost of the official rules.

I like, M2 will really sting, best used on ranged fighters.

Quote :
And the dwarves know it: you really think so? I kind of felt like them not counting towards your warbands strength really evened it out. I'm not terribly attached to it, and I'd be fine with switching to the normal goblin one, I just thought it'd be nice to make them a little different.

I'm guessing the max warband size will be 12?
So you have your 4 heroes and 8 hobgoblins with either nothing or something cheap like clubs (not a stretch after a few games). Your hobgoblins you send off to fight the enemy and hide your heroes somewhere. Only if they manage to take out all of them without being reduced to taking Rout tests will you have to even risk the heroes.

But that might not be possible in practice, we can only surmise so much without playtesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 9:33

Hobs: Make them count HALF towards rout, both for and against. That makes them half as valuable as a dwarf.

The HobGob stats as sound a little off to me. I'd charge 20gc, and make them the same as Humans, but with I2, and Ld6. Seems fair to me.

Daemonsmith - An awesome sounding name for a pretty blah Hero. What if he a special rule, like his Blunderbuss fire was at +1 S? Maybe you have an impress, 150+ weapon what contained a bound daemon? May only buy if you have a daemonsmith or something. Grants crazy bonus (within fairness, of course.)

Speaking of Blunderbusses, may I suggest you add the Double-Barreled Blunderbuss from Sartosa to the list- 60gc for a Blunderbuss that fires twice a game (may empty both barrels at once, or at two separate occasions.) Very good, but at 60, not broke. (If you're using the Gunpowder misfire, it's 15% cheaper.)

Turning to stone - How's this:
Every time you roll a natural 2 on the Difficulty roll, roll 1D6:
1 -1 Move
2 -1 WS
3 - 1 I
4 -1 S
5 +1 Armor Save
6 + 1 Wound
The sorcoror suffers/gains that for the rest of the game. At the end of the game, roll another 2D6: on another 2, it's permanent. May not increase a stat more than 1 point over max stats, will not reduce below 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 11:21

whiskeytango wrote:
Usually 100gc, dropped to 75gc for these guys at creation. Its worth mentioning that all armor with us is around half cost of the official rules.

I don't think it is the best idea to present new warband rules here in public and pricing it with your special house rules in mind. It would be helpful if things were discussed here with the official rules in mind, like the LRB, Annual and official FAQs. Later, everybody can alter it according to his or her houserule-needs. Otherwise there is no common ground for discussion really.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 11:59

Woah, I just noticed.... Ld7? Is that a typo? You can have cowardly dwarves if you want, but that's definitely against the old CD stats. Would be interesting, though. (In my rules, like the Dogs of War Campaign, Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarves have Ld9, and Norse Dwarves are the cowardly ones with Ld8 - they're the dishonorable mercenaries who aren't above cutting and running!)

Even with -2 ld, they're waaay too good for 30gc, once you factor in the Hard to Kill stuff. 35gc, I'd say.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 12:28

Grimscull wrote:


I don't think it is the best idea to present new warband rules here in public and pricing it with your special house rules in mind. It would be helpful if things were discussed here with the official rules in mind, like the LRB, Annual and official FAQs. Later, everybody can alter it according to his or her houserule-needs. Otherwise there is no common ground for discussion really.

I have to agree with Grimscull, it's best done with everyone in mind - at least if it's something to kick ideas around on a forum for.

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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 13:28

woah responses

@Dribble:

Obsidian Weapons: I think you're right. Probably should be x5 cost.
Obsidian Armor: Whoops, meant to say its -1I at all times, -1M when also armed with a shield
Route testing: Good point. We don't have any power gamers, so alot of the time I tend to overlook possible abuses. Normal Goblin routing rules it is.

@Styro:

Hobbo stats: Good catch on the stats, don't know what I was thinking
Daemonsmith: I didn't want to go overboard on their rules or make them too much like the Dwarf engineer. I'm not opposed to the added blunderbuss str though. I like the sound of the double barreled blunderbuss too.
Turning to stone: Love that table you came up with.
Leadership: that was a choice made not really on fluff at all, but just to make them more different from the Treasure Hunters. 35gc for them probably seems like its a better fit too, thanks for all the feedback.

@Grim: I understand what you're saying, but i'm also going to go ahead and assume that no one other than my group would bother using these rules. I'm just trying to get overall general feedback on it. So as long as its not going to really offend anyone, i'd prefer to not waste time writing a list of rules I don't intend on using the way I've written them.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 14:17

I thought the turning to stone thing was based on overall magical power, not an actual per casting thing. Maybe have him roll on that chat every time he rolls on the spell chart or everytime he learns a skill? So as his magic gets better his body starts hardening. The risk of 1-4 bad 5-6 good could be ok, but I would suggest making 4 be no effect instead of -S just to make it so not every time it is a change?

Trying to find a way to make it more fluffy, but I'm not the CD expert, my brother is.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 15:14

BalrogTheBuff wrote:
I thought the turning to stone thing was based on overall magical power, not an actual per casting thing. Maybe have him roll on that chat every time he rolls on the spell chart or everytime he learns a skill? So as his magic gets better his body starts hardening. The risk of 1-4 bad 5-6 good could be ok, but I would suggest making 4 be no effect instead of -S just to make it so not every time it is a change?

Trying to find a way to make it more fluffy, but I'm not the CD expert, my brother is.

You very easily could be correct about that. I'm not exactly the foremost expert on Chaos Dwarves, and I couldn't find much info on the logistics of the Stone Curse. Mostly just that as time goes on they turn to stone from the feet up, not if its because of frequency of spell use or power. I'd be cool with that way of doing it though, you could find yourself with a useless sorcerer real quick if there was a chance of it happening every time you cast a spell.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Mon 12 Sep 2011 - 15:35

-1 Movement: Bad call, I think. Dwarves are slow enough. M2 would be ridiculous, and it doesn't feel very dwarven (their ability to ignore armor is the only thing keeping them from losing every scenario they fight.)

How about it has an ADDITIONAL effect?

1: 5+ armor save, with a 4+ armor save against spells.
2. 5+ armor save. If loses a wound in hand to hand combat, everyone in base contact suffers a S3 hit.
3. 5+ armor save. If affected by a spell or prayer cast by anyone but a Chaos Dwarf Sorceror, roll 1D6: on a 4+, he is unaffected by the spell.
4. 5+ armor save. If the target loses a wound due to an enemy spell or prayer, roll 1D6: on a 4+ the caster suffers a S4 hit.
5. Receives 5+ against missile hits, and 4+ in combat (so, the OPPOSITE of a Sea Dragon Cloak)
6. Grants a 4+ armor save. The bearer suffers -1 Initiative.
7. Grants a 5+ armor save. The bearer suffers -1 Initiative. However, all models in base contact with the wearer suffers -1 Initiative as well (this will not stack if in contact with several wearers.)

I don't think it should be better than gromril, but stylistically, it should be something that HURTS people around them. If Dwarf = stubborn, Chaos Dwarf = spite.

If you want to know more about CDs, check out this site... full of friendly, friendly people (I used to be a member myself:

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 10:14

updated first post with v2 of the warband. Lots of ideas from here taken into account. We'll be play testing a bit tonight too.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 13:51

Looks neat. If the Daemonsmith gratns +1 S blunder to ALL CDs, he should prob have cost of 50gc. If only himself, 40 is fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 14:59

I like this! My opinion is There Can Be Only One should grant the hero a bonus exp for the killing of the upstart. A kill is a kill right? =)
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 0:42

Alright, so last night we had a mordheim game night, and this list got a bunch of play testing. Three people, myself included, tried out different list compositions, and we each got several games in, so we're getting an alright feel for them. My list was:

Overseer 2 maces - 88gc
Sorcerer 2 maces, Spirit of Hashut spell - 63gc
Daemonsmith, blacksmiths hammer, mace - 48gc
Obsidian guard, halberd - 55gc

heroes - 254gc

3 storm breakers blundbusses, daggers - 195gc
2 Hobgoblins, short bows, daggers - 50gc

henchmen - 245gc

total - 499gc

Not as shooty as bands I would normally run, but it was interesting. I've havent played the treasure hunters in years, so the slowness of the band took some getting used to. People were definitely scared of the blunderbusses with the added +1 str from the daemonsmith, so I never got mobbed up on. The hobbos were generally useless compared to their dwarven compatriots, but one of the other lists went hobbo heavy and had them equipped with the steppes bow, and they acquitted themselves much better than mine did.

After the first game, my sorcerer, of course, got effected by the stone curse and lost 1 initiative, which succccked, since it brought him down to 1. The daemonsmith didn't do much, but as stated earlier, his blunderbuss effect paid for him. The one-two punch of my the overseer and obsidian guard in combat was pretty deadly. Took a chance on the Blessing of Hashut with my overseer and he promptly ended up losing 1 BS, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I mean, i guess i didn't gain anything... but i could have.

All in all, we're pretty happy with it. If anyone gets some proper minis going for them, we think we're going to allow them into our campaigns as is.

Any additional thoughts from anyone?

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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 4:04

Not much. Make sure you get a chance to play against Core bands too, not just other CD warbands (the reason some supplements are broken is that the players only playtest against other new warbands, not old ones.)

Also, if the Daemonsmith gives +1 Strength to ALL blunders, he definitely needs to cost at least 50gc . (I Had originally thought only HE'D get +1 Strength, but the way you have it is pretty cool.)

Hope they continue to play great!
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MeanBone
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 8:39

Warband's max size is 12? Or 15? (otherwise people might not use the hobgobs -- especially later in the campaign)
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 8:44

With the cap of CD Henchman being 6, I think 15 would be okay. If you had 0-5 for warriors and 0-5 for stormbreakers, 12 would be fairer.
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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: Re: Chaos Dwarf Warband v2, w/ feedback taken into account.   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 10:07

thanks for the comments guys

@Styro: sorry, I guess i made that sound like we played them against eachother or something, which we didn't. The opponents were mercs, witch hunters, 2 undead, and possessed. As far as the daemonsmith, we may do 45gc, but probably not 50gc. We're going to do some more playtesting this weekend, but he is just so not combat effective. No one seemed to have issue with his price. I'll bring it up though.

@Meanbone: whoops, thought I included all that business in the update, guess i didn't. Max warband size is 15, which everyone thought was fair since only 2/3s of that can be Dwarves.
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