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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: Tilean Mercanaries   Sun 4 Sep 2011 - 11:20

Another one that we're currently play testing. We wanted a Tilean force that A) is less powerful than the lustrian one, B) is a single force, without all the city state options, and C) has fluffy flavor for every option. So this is what we came up with. Personally, I'm juggling with the idea of adding another henchmen option since 2 choices seems kind of limited, but I'm stuck as to what it should be. Any thoughts?

Tilean Mercanaries:

After many marksmen returned from Mordheim with gold spilling from their purses, the merchant princes in the city-states of Tilea decided that slightly larger scale incursions would be a prudent investment. So many a mercenary capitano banded together their men, to go to the city of the damned, with orders of returning with riches, or not to return at all.

Special Rules:

Merchant Princes: A Tilean warband is funded by an exceptionally wealthy man known as a Merchant Prince. While their coffers may not be as deep (or maybe just not as capricious) as those of the merchants in Marienburg, they are still able to give their warbands a leg up, in the financial department at least. A Tilean warband starts at creation with an additional 50gc than the typical 500gc.

Renowned Crossbowmen: The Tileans, especially those from Miragliano, are famed for their skill with a crossbow. Tilean Marksmen gain +1 to hit when using a crossbow.

Choice of warriors: A Tilean Warband starts with 550gc, and may have a maximum of 15 members.

Tilean Equipment list:

Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Mace - 3gc
Axe - 5gc
Halberd - 10gc
Sword - 10gc
Spear - 10gc
2-Handed Weapon - 15gc
2-Handed Mace - 18gc
2-Handed Axe - 20gc
Pistol/Brace - 15gc/30gc
Dueling Pistol/Brace - 25gc/50gc
Crossbow - 25gc
Light Armor - 10gc
Heavy Armor - 25gc
Shield - 5gc
Bucklet - 5gc
Helmet - 10gc

Duelist Equipment list:

Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Sword - 10gc
Rapier - 15gc
Main Gauche - 10gc
Sword Breaker - 45gc
Dueling Pistol/Brace - 25gc/50gc
Light Armor - 10gc
Cloak (buckler) - 5gc

Marksman Equipment list:

Dagger - 1st free/2nd 2gc
Mace - 3gc
Sword - 10gc
Crossbow - 25gc
Light Armor - 10gc
Heavy Armor - 25gc
Helmet - 10gc
Pavise - 10gc

Capitano start with 20 experience, and may choose from Combat, Strength, Speed, Academic, and Shooting skill lists.
Duelists start with 12 experience, and may choose from Combat, Speed, Academic, and Shooting skill lists
Ausilios start with 0 experience, and may choose from Strength, Speed, Academic, and Shooting skill lists
Henchman start with 0 experience

1 Capitano - 60gc to hire

Tilean Capitanos are usually the leaders of small individual regiments who are hired out by the Merchant Princes whenever they need a show of force. Veterans of numerous military actions, Tilean Capitanos are every bit the match of their Imperial counterparts.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8

Weapons and Equipment: A Capitano may choose his equipment from the Tilean equipment list
Special Rules:
Leader: Any model within 6" of the Capitano may use his leadership

0-2 Duelists - 40gc to hire

Even when matters of personal honor are at stake, the Merchant Princes are unlikely to fight their own battles. Because of this, professional duelists are numerous in Tilea. Those who are still alive have become quite adept at their craft, and are much sought after by Capitanos for their forays into Mordheim, where one on one combat is inevitable, and the Duelists skill with a blade will be invaluable.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8

Weapons and Equipment: A Duelist may choose his equipment from the Duelist equipment list
Special Rules:
Strangely Particular: A duelist does not deal death with brute strength, rather he kills with cunning and skill. As such, they almost uniformly prefer light, fast, bladed weapons, and shuns the use of weighty armor, which he feels would only inhibit his speed and finesse. A duelist does not have access to the skills "Weapons Training" and "Weapons Expert", and may only ever wear light, ithilmar, or gromil armor.

0-2 Ausilio - 15gc to hire

Though military men, Capitanos are not without that certain vanity that most Tileans exhibit, and they often bring Ausilios, or aides, along with them in their travels to wait on them. Usually young men who had little other options left to them in life, or the seconds sons of lower tier merchants, Ausilios are not the most seasoned or skillful of fighters, but they are loyal to their Capitanos, and will follow him into danger.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 6

Weapons and Equipment: Ausilios may choose their equipment from the Tilean equipment list

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Henchmen

0+ Marksmen - 30gc to hire each

Perhaps the most numerous mercenaries throughout the city states, Tilean Marksmen are known all around the Old World for their immense skill with a crossbow. However, not many songs have been sung for their skills in close combat.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons and Equipment: Marksmen may choose their equipment from the Marksmen equipment list
Special Rules:
Ranged Preference: Though trained soldiers, Marksmen are not at home on the battlefield when fighting the enemy from within arms reach. Marksmen always strike last in combat, even if they charge.

0+ Soldier - 25gc to hire each

The unsung backbone of any Tilean force, the rank and file soldiers of Tilea are none the less very capable fighters, proving themselves on the battlefield time and again. Though usually seen wielding their characteristic pikes, they've come to realize that those are weapons meant for large scale warfare, where unit cohesion is what wins battles. In the narrow streets of Mordheim such combat isn't practical, so many soldiers have branched out to other weapons choices, though most haven't strayed too far, and have adopted the spear as an alternative.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Weapons and Equipment: Soldiers may choose their equipment from the Tilean equipment list
Special Rules:
Use what you know: Many soldiers who come to Mordheim are loathe to leave behind their trusty pikes, but have shown an affinity for their smaller cousin, the spear. A Soldier may purchase a spear at creation for 5gc instead of the usual 10gc.

Special Equipment:

Main Gauche: A long bladed dagger with a large hilt, the Main Gauche is favored amongst duelists for its defensive capabilities.
Range: Close Combat Str: As per user Special Rules: Save Modifier: A main gauche add +1 to its victims armor save. Parry: A main gauche allows its user to parry as per the sword special rule, or if armed with another weapon that allows the use of parry, the user may re-roll a failed parry. Complimentary weapons: The main gauche was invented to be the perfect accompaniment to the rapier, and a character armed with both does not suffer from the -1 to hit for wielding two weapons.

Pavise: A huge usually stationary shield used mainly in battle formations by crossbowmen, the pavise is an extraordinary means of defense, but only if you don't plan on getting anywhere in a hurry, and offers little protection in close combat as its too heavy to move quickly, and often even gets in the way in such situations. Crossbowmen also favor the pavise since it acts as a stable object on which they can steady their aim. A pavise grants +2 sv against missile fire, and +1 to hit while used with a crossbow. Its grants no additional save in close combat, and a model equipped with a pavise suffer -1 M and -1 In.
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Dribble Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sun 4 Sep 2011 - 16:44

Intriguing, I like the back ground and theme, though there are a couple of quibbles;

Duellists getting +1 Int and Ld over Champions for only 5gc. Yes you have a restricted weapon and armour list, but unless you've done something to deal with armour, you probably won't be giving it to them anyway. Int 4 is seriously important, especially early on in campaigns.

Pavise: I like the idea, but the combo with marksmen and crossbows is simply too strong. Get them a BS increase and they hit on 2s unless the target is over half range and behind cover. Even at the beginning they are essentially BS 5. It would make Reikland gunlines look like poop-slinging chimps.

And the cost isn't really a factor. A crossbow and pavise is the same as a hand gun, and you get 6" longer range, the same Str, you can fire each turn and a 5+ basic armour save.
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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sun 4 Sep 2011 - 17:15

Dribble Joy wrote:
Intriguing, I like the back ground and theme, though there are a couple of quibbles;

Duellists getting +1 Int and Ld over Champions for only 5gc. Yes you have a restricted weapon and armour list, but unless you've done something to deal with armour, you probably won't be giving it to them anyway. Int 4 is seriously important, especially early on in campaigns.

Pavise: I like the idea, but the combo with marksmen and crossbows is simply too strong. Get them a BS increase and they hit on 2s unless the target is over half range and behind cover. Even at the beginning they are essentially BS 5. It would make Reikland gunlines look like poop-slinging chimps.

And the cost isn't really a factor. A crossbow and pavise is the same as a hand gun, and you get 6" longer range, the same Str, you can fire each turn and a 5+ basic armour save.

Hey man, thanks for the comments. We're still playtesting them, so its good to hear feedback about it.

- Duelists: Thats a valid concern, and they could probably stand to be another 5gc more. However, it is worth noting, that yeah, armor is significantly cheaper in our group, and also our crit table is adjusted, so "no armor save allowed" isn't nearly prominent. Also, and I feel like this is overlooked alot, he starts with 4 more experience than a champion, so he'll be advancing slower. Like I said though, a price increase could be in the stars for them.

-Pavise: Thats one thats definitely going to take a cost increase, but we haven't found the rules to be terribly over powered while testing it out. We play with alot of terrain, so shooting is already at a disadvantage, and if you use a pavise your movement and In are dropped to dwarf levels, and you always strike last in combat. Also, you only get that save from ranged attacks. In short, theres alot of disadvantages to using them with a weapon thats move or shoot, since in a setting with alot of terrain, it takes a lot more positioning to get the chance to shoot someone. Like I said though, a price increase is probably going to happen though, and if you wanted to use this in a group that uses less buildings and such, you'd definitely want to change some stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 5 Sep 2011 - 0:51

I would allow the duellist just light armor and Ithilmar Armor.
Even if Gromril don't reduce your movement, your are still clad in metal, which doesn't fit with a duellist.

You may be right, that range combat can get weak with a lot of terrain, but i don't like the idea of fixing it with just one warband...
They may be balanced, but fluff wise i think its not fitting, if the classic shooting warbands are much weaker than the the tileans...

How about make the pavise cheaper and remove one of the modifier for shooting...
or introduce new skills for heroes to do more damage (like precise shoot: +1S, but -2 to hit, may not be combined with quick shot)
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Dribble Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 5 Sep 2011 - 4:38

whiskeytango wrote:
Also, and I feel like this is overlooked alot, he starts with 4 more experience than a champion, so he'll be advancing slower. Like I said though, a price increase could be in the stars for them.

Point conceded, he's essentially starting with a forced advance.

Quote :
We play with alot of terrain

Lots of cover that blocks line of sight or just lots of cover?

Anyway, I like the concept of the pavise, though personally I would drop the +1 to hit with a crossbow. Perhaps then either loose the movement penalty or always strikes last.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Wed 7 Sep 2011 - 22:03

I would simply remove all armor from the Duelists. Give them extra avoidance options like a parry increaser or a reroll. Perhaps expert swordsman? Armor is for people who make mistakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Thu 8 Sep 2011 - 23:14

@saranor: I like the idea of the pavises +1 to hit with crossbows being a skill that can be picked up instead of it being a built in ability. thanks for that.

@dribble: lots of cover that blocks line of sight.

@montegue: I like that. I don't know if i want to give him any more beneficial special rules since i find the more special rules you add, the less likely it is that people are willing to play against it, but I like the idea of just taking armor away altogether.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Fri 9 Sep 2011 - 9:21

Just make it so the Duelists can always reroll parries with a Rapier or Sword as if they had a buckler in the other hand. Call it 'Duellist's Cloak', or 'Danger Sense', or 'Survived This Long Due to Skill Rather than Daddy's Money'.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Fri 9 Sep 2011 - 13:12

Duelists already have access to a Cloak (Buckler) in this list.

I'd either remove the option for armour altogether or at most do the basic limit to Light or Ithilmar armour. The simpler it is the better in my view.
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thecandlelit chopshop
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 0:47

I like these i may just try them out.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 11:21

In my experience, Parry is far from over-powered. You only get one parry per round, and a lot of the time you simply can't even use parry because one of your opponent's attacks hit on a 6.

Giving Duelists Expert Swordsman seems fine, especially considering Swordsmen in the standard Merc list. It would stack nicely with the Rapier special rules, though I do not think that it would be too over the top. It would make for a lot of rolling with a charging Duelist though.

It would seem fitting to prevent Duelists from wearing any armor, but give them the Step Aside skill. That may seem a little OP, but it would be fluffy and if armor is an important part of your game rules then the lack thereof is more of a disadvantage.

There's a good chance that Heroes roll new skills on advancement, and Step Aside or Expert Swordsman would likely be one of the first skills taken for a Duelist warrior anyhow. You already have them advancing slower.

Personally, I would drop +1 LD, put in a never wear armor rule, and give them the Step Aside skill. If that's a little too good you could up the GC cost by 5.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 14:25

The thing I notice is too many skill sets open to your heroes.
Duelist and Ausilios both have accsess to 4 skill sets each. The Mercs have 3 each for the Champions and Youngbloods. This is a big bonus to this warband.
I say dump one skill type from each.
Duelist I would drop Academic as it doesn't fit them as well.
Ausilios I would drop strenght.


I agree Duelist no armor ether. I don't think they need an extra boost though to compensate for this.

Pavish: I would drop simply the Tilean special rule of +1 to hit with crossbows. This way the Pavish will work for other warbands with no changes from what you have and it will work like the Kisave warband with there Strelats with handguns and halbards together being needed for there bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 14:40

I did not notice the skill access. It would seem like the Duelist would only need access to speed, combat, and shooting skills.

I think that the Duelist could use a skill like Expert Swordsman or Step Aside. Though looking at it again, I see your point.

The Duelist equipment access and higher starting Init makes it unique. The warrior has access to some special weapons and has a high enough init to start move around the battlefield and take good advantage of some speed skills.

It would be nice to see a flavorful special rule or access to a small special skill list like a Dwarf Slayer, to give them some panache.

Like, you could add a skill that gives them bonuses to diving charges, or skill to represent using a lantern in a fight. Something fluffy that you can give an amusing name.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 13:25

Personnaly, I'd change a few things

1 - I'd change the +1 to hit with crossbow for markmen to a simple BS 4. (More simple and anyway they can only have crossbow in their equipment list). I'd also remove their strike last disadvantage but I'd grant them an ability that negate the long range -1 to hit penalty with crossbows.

2 - I'd remove the academic skill list to Duelist and Strenght list to Ausilio. But'd give an ability identical to fey quickness to the duellist.

3 - I'd remove the grombil armor to the duelist equipment list and give them only LD 7 but make them immune to all alone (bravado !!).

4 - Pavise : I'd drop the +1 to hit bonus and -1 M penalty and I'd consider it as a normal shield that always grants cover to the user.

5- I'd add the pike to the Tilean equipment list.


By the way, I really like the flavor you gave to the warband. You should check miniatures on this site (pike and shotte category) :

http://www.warlordgames.com/

With a few conversion they can become the perfect warband for mordheim. They are cheap too !

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 14:12

There already are officlal rules for pavises which can be found in the Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe article from the 2002 Annual. Those official rules should be used instead of making new rules. Potentially the Marksmen henchmen could then be given a special rule that let them use their weapons with the pavise for extra benefit to still capture the full intent of the pavise rules in the original warband listing at the top.

Here are the official rules for the pavise from Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe:
Quote :
The pavise is a huge shield commonly used in regiments of warriors in battle to defend themselves from the arrors of their enemies. It is a weighty item and little use in a long protracted combat but excellent against shooting.
Cover/Save: A warrior using a pavise counts as if he is in cover against missile attacks (-1 to hit). In close combat, the pavise counts as a shield (+1 armour save) but only if the warrior was charged to his front. Because the pavise is so heavy and cumbersome, the bearer moves at half pace.


I totally agree with Goglutin to add the pike. I recommend using the pike rules from the Merchant Caravan warband found in the Border Town Burning expansion rather than the pike from the Tilean warband found in the Lustria expansion.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 14:56

I, on the other hand, applaud leaving the pike off the list altogether. The pike is not a skirmisher's weapon and even in the abstract world of 'this is just a fantasy combat game' its hard to envision its use.

As our hero (lets call him Thor) moved cautiously down the narrow alley he could hear footsteps coming his way. Thor paused to listen. An elven warrior appeared at the other end of the alley. The elf drew his sword and screamed a battle cry. Thor grabbed the eighteen foot pike from his pack and skillfully skewered the charging elf before it could react.

Otherwise I'm not certain what is so overpowered about the Lurstrian Tileans that has been left out of this list...
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 15:59

LOL !!! I like your flavor text Von Kurst !!! But I still like pikes !!! Wink

Let me show you Thor another way...

As the zombies closed up to fight in the alley, Captain Boris ordered his two better men to stay aside him to form a shield wall while his younger inexperimented fellows where supposed to back up the line with their pikes... The mindless horrors came close without care ... to be pierced by those long spears before they could reach the captain and his men *****

Lemming .. I understand that you want to use the ''official'' pavise... but the official one is USELESS... moving at half pace is ridiculous.... Anyway... the Tilean pavise should be smaller ... more like a Roman Scutum (Real pavise are so big you cannot see the man behind it). NO ONE ever used an ''official'' pavise ... and I'm pretty sure no one will ever do because of the movement penalty...


***** - I dont want to start a fight for flavour text with you as English is not my first language... lol.. I'll sure end as a big loser Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 17:50

In the end, like the pike, I'd rather leave the pavaise out of the game. The 'official' rule does make them less than useful
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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 19:20

Very Happy Oh I totally agree that the standard Pavise is useless. The solution then is to call them a Tilean Pavise as otherwise there will be confusion with rules in the future.

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PostSubject: Re: Tilean Mercanaries   Mon 17 Dec 2012 - 21:36

Goglutin wrote:


1 - I'd change the +1 to hit with crossbow for markmen to a simple BS 4. (More simple and anyway they can only have crossbow in their equipment list). I'd also remove their strike last disadvantage but I'd grant them an ability that negate the long range -1 to hit penalty with crossbows.

2 - I'd remove the academic skill list to Duelist and Strenght list to Ausilio. But'd give an ability identical to fey quickness to the duellist.

3 - I'd remove the grombil armor to the duelist equipment list and give them only LD 7 but make them immune to all alone (bravado !!).

4 - Pavise : I'd drop the +1 to hit bonus and -1 M penalty and I'd consider it as a normal shield that always grants cover to the user.


These are great suggestions. I completely forgot about Fey Quickness. That and immune to All Alone tests would be a great and flavorful combination of special abilities. I do think that with those skills the Duelist should simply not be allowed to wear armor of any kind.
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