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Dribble Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Fri 21 Oct 2011 - 5:39

Not sure it's necessary, but also added Hatred for Chaos Dwarves and Hobgoblins to the Black Orc rule.

Linky.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 15:58

Quick question:

The original rules prohibit Black Orcs from riding mounts, yet in all editions of WHFB I have come across, black orc heroes and lords have been able to take all the same mounts as regular Orcs.

Clearly it would give Black Orcs the potential for a 1+ save (or a 0+ if wearing gromril), but would the cost and rarity counteract this? Increase in price? Exclude Black Orc armour bonus if riding a mount?

Or is this really only something a boss of stature far above the potential of a warband would consider?
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 17:17

I think even though rules-wise, its possible to do it in Warhammer... traditionally it seems like Black Orcs dislike mounts. Even if you look at Boar Boyz, you see one for savage, one for regular, but none for Black Orcs. Special character-wise.. the infamous Gorbad Ironclaw with his war boar is a bog-"standard" Orc. All the Black Orc special characters seem to be on foot (Grimgor and Borgut come to mind)... unless I've missed something. Seems like its more of a fluff thing and Mordheim being more tied to fluff rather than army competitiveness.. I would keep this in the spirit of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 17:32

Quote :
The original rules prohibit Black Orcs from riding mounts, ...
Original rules?

Black orc special character on warboar--Morglum Necksnapper from 4th-5th edition. My 3rd edition Warhammer rulebook allows Black Orc characters to ride boars. I know 2nd edition is around but I'm not looking for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 17:56

Von Kurst wrote:
Quote :
The original rules prohibit Black Orcs from riding mounts, ...
Original rules?

Black orc special character on warboar--Morglum Necksnapper from 4th-5th edition. My 3rd edition Warhammer rulebook allows Black Orc characters to ride boars. I know 2nd edition is around but I'm not looking for it.

I had no clue of Morglum. I was still in 40k during that time, so thats good to know.

I think as far as the other poster's question.. he's speaking specifically about Mordheim. I think in the Black Orc rules, they don't allow mounts for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 18:07

Ah, well I don't have a high opinion of the Nemesis Crown's Black Orc rules so I'd ignore them.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 18:14

Von Kurst wrote:
Ah, well I don't have a high opinion of the Nemesis Crown's Black Orc rules so I'd ignore them.

Yea, it seems like a list that hasn't been properly hashed out. I'm looking over it again as we speak. Just seems like an odd list and the Black Orcs themselves seem to have way too high of max stats.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 18:18

Mordheim BO rules disallow mounts.

it was more a fluff question than anything.

Another random question:

Oi Behave! is useful when you have Orc Boys. Without Orc Boys it becomes useless; With the normal rules the Black Orcs can take crossbows and bows, but in my version only throwing knives. As such the Oi Behave! rule becomes wasted if no Boys are taken. Should there be some kind of recompense (say, if the warband consists entirely of models with the Black Orc rule the leader gains +1 Ld) or should this be an intrinsic downside to only including the more powerful Black Orc members?

gorenut wrote:
Just seems like an odd list and the Black Orcs themselves seem to have way too high of max stats.

Current version reduces max stats to that of Orcs but + 1 WS/Str, dumping the daft T6 availability.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 20:34

Mounts: Man, Morglum was da best.

Quote the Necksnapper: "The only good stunty iz a dead stunty. And de only fing better than a dead stunty is a dyin' stunty who tells ya where ta find his mates."

Mounts: I think it might be a good idea to have them go without mounts, if only because you'd get armor saves that border on the insane. Maybe allow any promoted Orc Boys to get boars, but the BlackOrcs don't mount.

Of course, you could have a Morglum-like Black Orc DP that rides a boar... he'd be unstoppable! And FUN!

Oi Behave: I think it's fine the way it is. The higher cost of the Black Orc leader is for the +1 Armor save, really... the Oi Behave is kind of a freebie.

Personally, I think the blacks and the boyz have a good relationship:

Blacks: -
pro: good armor, 6+ natural save, no animosity, oi behave, high stats
cons: expensive, no long range

Boyz -
pro: cheaper, access to missiles
cons: reroll TLGT rolls, animosity



If you're not sure if a "black orc only" warband would work, of if you feel that a "mixed" band wouldn't feel different enough, here's my suggestion: add the following changes to da list:

>Black Orcs Heroes can use Crossbows. Black Orc Henchman cannot.
>Da Boss has Shooting skills removed from his skill lists.

>Black Orcs also have the following rule:

>>>Sissy Stuff! - Black Orcs Heroes may be armed with Crossbows, but they may NEVER learn Shooting skills. They consider all forms of long range weapons to be merely a distraction to the enemy, not an actual weapon!

>Orc Boyz get:
>>>Me Mate's an Arrer Boy, 'Onest!: If an Orc boy manages to become a hero, he may choose Shooting as one of his two skill lists. He may pick it even if there are no current heroes in the warband with Shooting skills.


Thus, your warband gets a 30" boost (even without the orc boyz, allowing you to have a playable "black orc only" warband if you wanted.) However, if you want to have a versatile, long AND short range band, you have to split your forces between blacks & boyz.

(Of course, you could always skip the shooty stuff and have a blacks band with a cheap screen of boyz in front- that's a perfectly good strategy too!)
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 26 Oct 2011 - 20:34

Dribble Joy wrote:
Mordheim BO rules disallow mounts.

it was more a fluff question than anything.

Another random question:

Oi Behave! is useful when you have Orc Boys. Without Orc Boys it becomes useless; With the normal rules the Black Orcs can take crossbows and bows, but in my version only throwing knives. As such the Oi Behave! rule becomes wasted if no Boys are taken. Should there be some kind of recompense (say, if the warband consists entirely of models with the Black Orc rule the leader gains +1 Ld) or should this be an intrinsic downside to only including the more powerful Black Orc members?

gorenut wrote:
Just seems like an odd list and the Black Orcs themselves seem to have way too high of max stats.

Current version reduces max stats to that of Orcs but + 1 WS/Str, dumping the daft T6 availability.

Yea, that +1 T was the main thing I found iffy. Otherwise its fine.

As far as the Oi Behave! Rule.. well.. I think the fact that you can take all Black Orcs is a huge advantage in itself. I don't think there needs to be any compensation for losing the utility of that rule. Black Orcs not having to worry about animosity is already a big leap in leadership.

I do like your updated list much better than the Nemesis Crown list. Its a list I'd consider playing. I have Black Orc models that I really want to use since they're so cool, but I'm curently just using them as Big Uns. Personally.. I'd keep crossbows and mounts out of Black Orcs all together. Otherwise I see no compromise between them and regular Orcs. Pretty much only benefits with the exception of cost.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Thu 27 Oct 2011 - 6:54

Fair enough. Hadn't really explored the mounts/Oi Behave! aspects, so wanted to at least throw them out there.
Could bring in all sorts of clauses and exceptions but better to keep things simple.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Thu 27 Oct 2011 - 20:45

Keeping mounts out of the Black Orc warband was just arbitrary on the part of the Nemesis Crown authors. Theres no good reason to bar them from this warband. Only heroes can ride in Warhammer and only heroes can ride in Mordheim.

As for crossbows, I didn't allow Black Orcs to use them in my revised warband but I did allow normal orcs to.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Fri 28 Oct 2011 - 3:41

Kurst: I see it as more of a balance issue, regarding armor-

Normal Orcs:
Can have light armor + shield + boar (+2 save) = 3+ save.
They can get to 2+, but it costs them a skill (to take black orc blood.)

Black Orcs:
Heavy armor + shield + boar (+2 save) + black orc blood = 1+ save
If he had gromril armor, he could in theory make it a 0+ save, although that doesn't technically exist.

If you can have barding, that would increase a Normal to 2+ and a Black Orc to -1+.

It's just too tough, really. And one more advantage that Vanilla orcs have over their dark brethren.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Fri 28 Oct 2011 - 3:43

Orc Boys can take bows/crossbows, so there's still a ranged aspect.

I'm going to leave out mounts for the moment. I will try to do some testing with them to see how they go, but that will take time. I'm not sure the potential armour saves are justifiable given the lack of wide-spread save modifiers, high cost isn't always a good balancer.

/edit: Nipped at the post.
Also, barding is warhorses only.
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