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 Black Orc Warband alternate rules

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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 14:57

Maybe... that seems to work better with vanilla orcs more so than blacks, but it's a creative idea.

I think you should play them a few times as are, and see how they play. Maybe they have a Good Boss / Bad Boss chart, like with the Chaos Marauder warband. A boss that wins fights gets respect, which eventually leads to bonuses. A boss that intentionally runs away a lot like a coward risks a coup.

If you don't know about the Marauder band, look at the Border Town Burning website. It was also in the Letters of the Damned webzine.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 3:17

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Maybe... that seems to work better with vanilla orcs more so than blacks, but it's a creative idea.

The naming alluded more to 'Orciness' in general, rather than the grim seriousness of Black Orcs (Kombat Specialist, 'Ard Boy, etc. I'm also going through the names of the Black Orc abilities from WHO). It could be something to add to Da Mob.

Quote :
Maybe they have a Good Boss / Bad Boss chart, like with the Chaos Marauder warband. A boss that wins fights gets respect, which eventually leads to bonuses. A boss that intentionally runs away a lot like a coward risks a coup.

Interesting, and fluffy, though it would mean that those who win get better at winning, those who don't get better at loosing (although this is an inherent aspect of Mordheim in general, I'd rather not exacerbate it).

Anyway, I'll try to get some games in. Unfortunately we planned for a Mordheim campaign, but then someone started a 40K one beforehand and it won't now start until after Christmas. That said it's only running every other week and there's a few guys playing in the alternate sessions that I could ask to help play test.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 4:06

Dribble: Yes, those who win keep winning, but those who keep suffer are those that INTENTIONALLY rout. If a player plays 'em like bloodthirsty orcs (and stays in a game until he fails a rout test), they have no penalty. Only voluntary routs would be penalized, as it shows weakness.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 4:36

You think the Good/Bad Boss is better suited to both Orc rule-sets or just one of them?

Orcs tend to have a greater sense of infighting on an individual level, whereas Black Orcs respect fighting ability and don't tolerate the lack of it. Different penalties/bonuses for the two warbands?
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 14:55

I had a look through the BTB supplement and came up with two ideas, one simple, one more complex.

First, based off the Marauder Eye of the Gods:
Roll 2D6 after each battle.

Mutiny!
If the warband looses the game; add +1 to the roll for each hero taken Out of Action and an additional +3 if the warband voluntarily Routs.
On a score of 12 or more the hero with the highest experience other than the boss challenges him for leadership of the warband (roll off if there is two or more heroes with the same amount of experience). The usurper and the defending Boss fight in close combat until one is taken Out of Action (roll for Injuries as normal). If the usurper wins he becomes the warband's leader and gains the Leader and Oi, Behave! rules, with the previous boss loosing them. If the defending Boss wins he remains leader... for now...

Any more Kwestyunz?!
If the warband won the game; add +1 to the roll for each enemy model the boss took Out of Action, +1 if the boss took more models Out of Action than any other model and +1 if the boss took the enemy leader Out of Action.
On a score of 12 or more the boss' authority as been thoroughly stamped down, made clear, proven, etc. This test is never made again while this model is in the warband and he gains Ld 10.

More complex version based on the campaign points system from BTB:

The boss (and any new leader) starts with a Respect score of 0. After each game apply the following modifiers and consult the chart below. Make a note of the new Respect score and modify it further after each game. All modifiers are cumulative.

Won preceding game: +3
For each model the boss takes Out of Action: +1
The boss takes more models Out of Action than any other model in the warband: +1
The boss takes the enemy leader Out of Action: +2
No enemy models were taken Out of Action with a shooting attack: +1
Each Rout test passed: +1
Lost preceding game: -3
For each model in the warband that took more enemy models Out of Action than the boss: -1
For each member of the warband that was taken Out of Action: -1
The boss was taken Out of Action: -1
The warband voluntarily Routs: -10

Effects:
Positive:
0 to 9: No effect:
10 to 14 - Steady Lads!: The boss' Ld value may be used by warband members within 9" rather than the usual 6".
15 to 19 - Bellowa!: The boss' Ld value may be used by warband members within 12" rather than the usual 6".
20 to 24 - Hold Yer Ground!: The boss and models within 12" may re-roll All Alone tests.
25 to 29 - Dey'll Leg It Soon!: If using the boss' Ld value, the warband may re-roll the first failed Rout test.
30 to 40 - We'z Da Best!: All models in the warband are immune to fear and gain +1 Ld for All Alone tests.
40 or more - Any more Kwestyunz?!: The boss' authority as been thoroughly stamped down, made clear, proven, etc. The boss gains Ld 10.

Negative:
0 to -9 - No effect:
-10 to -14 - OI! Listen!: The boss' Ld cannot be used by other models.
-15 to -19 - Wut Yooz Say?!: Black Orc henchmen suffer animosity.
-20 to -24 - Didun Yooz 'Ear Me?: The warband must re-roll the first passed Rout test.
-25 to -29 - Dey'z Killin' Us!: Henchmen fear enemy models.
-30 to -39 - Not Dat Way!: The warband rolls one less dice for exploration.
-40 or less - Mutiny!: The hero with the highest experience other than the boss challenges him for leadership of the warband (roll off if there is two or more heroes with the same amount of experience). The usurper and the defending Boss fight in close combat until one is taken Out of Action (roll for Injuries as normal). If the usurper wins he becomes the warband's leader, gains the Leader and Oi, Behave! rules, the previous boss looses them. If the defending Boss wins he remains leader and in the respectful act of brutally stating his authority, his Respect score is reset to 0.

All effects stack with those below (or above) it. For example a boss with 21 Respect has Hold Yer Ground!, Bellowa! and Steady Lads... and a boss with -18 Respect is subject to Wut Yooz Say?! and Oi! Listen!
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 19 Sep 2011 - 17:53

I had two games tonight; one with the current rules and one with the modified version (no fighting styles or good/bad boss rules).

Alas I can't say much has been learned. Neither were against starting warbands, though not much higher (though I should have insisted, and some members of the opposition had advances), but the lack of numbers really telled. It also didn't help that I only got to make one armour save in both games combined. The guy couldn't help but roll criticals, which invariably ignored armour saves.

Next week I plan to have some more against a different opponent and/or starting warbands.

Also, can you parry attacks made by a pistol?
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 19 Sep 2011 - 18:28

If you use WS to attack, it can be parried, so, yes, you can parry a pistol in HTH.

Well, if they are balanced, they should start off very much like the Dwarves... hard to kill, but easy to swarm. My last campaign with Dwarves, the first warband I played out of the gate was a starting Skaven Player. I think I had 6, he had 12 or 13. Once you play another starting player that's not a swarm, you'll see how they fair in a one on one fight.

Although, if you faced superior numbers against seasoned warbands and won everytime, that's a bit of a tip off that your band is overpowered, so this is not necessarily a bad thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 19 Sep 2011 - 18:37

Definitely would have been better to test against starting bands, but clearly, you know that. Thats a shame about all the crits too. Lack of numbers is really tough at first too, but after awhile, barring the loss of heroes early on, it evens out.

Looking forward to hearing out it goes next week.

and yes, you can parry attacks made by a pistol. It was in the faq if i remember correctly. Its assumed the pistol is pushed out of the way before it fires. Crossbow pistols can't be parried though.

edit: whoops, styro beat me to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 4:42

The FAQ indirectly says so now I've had a look. It mentions that pistols use WS in combat, so inferring that you can parry them.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 16:14

This week's games faired a little better (though not much more).

Despite loosing the first game, the armour and parries of the warband extended their survival about right. Issues with a vampire with strongarm, but it took longer for him to kill the guys he was in combat with than expected.
Alas the boss was eaten and killed by a Direwolf and now serves the undead warband (I should have bottled when it was just the boss left, game was a wipeout and I had no income).

Second game was a three way match with some mission to grab barrels in the centre. The mercs shot people to bits, but at least two of my heroes survived (I only had 4 members in this game), the new boss has 2 attacks and another black orc has resilient. Got enough gold to hire a new henchman.

Will carry on with this warband over the next few weeks to see how it goes in the longer term.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 16:22

boss eaten by a direwolf? That is a harsh, harsh fate for a warband leader.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 16:24

He charged it, fluffed everything and then got munched Sad.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 3 Oct 2011 - 16:29

oh man... even worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 17 Oct 2011 - 16:12

Got in two games today.

The first went well, with me managing a charge against several models after weathering the Marienburger's fire, and forcing a Rout test which they failed.

My Boss got Da Cunnin' Plan and another hero got resilient. A henchman got LGT and is now S4.

Enough gold to buy two more henchmen.

Second went less well, with all but one hero going OoA. My opponent resumed his startling ability to roll criticals. A moment of memory lapse meant he forgot to declare charges before moving and shooting (I offered to allow him to charge but he declined), as a result I got several charges but unlike the previous game fluffed the lot and two-handed weapons and criticals gave me a pounding. I should have probably bottled at my first rout test, but I had the opportunity to charge a lot of his warband.
All the henchmen survived as did the heroes, though Nazbad got a chest wound and Hardened. Good thing he's Resilient.
The newly promoted Black Orc has an OBW and the Boss is Hardened.
Haven't done xp/exploration yet as we had to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Mon 17 Oct 2011 - 19:26

Hee, I'm excited to see how they work....

Once you're happy with them, put them in a PDF and I'll slap them on my website. That way, you can share it with... um... maybe 3 or 4 people.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 18 Oct 2011 - 0:18

Oh and Elf Rangers are seriously annoying Crying or Very sad.

Should be able to get a basic PDF up later today.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 18 Oct 2011 - 3:43

Elf Rangers: Which ones, the Shadow Elves?

PDF: Well, if you're in the middle of playtesting, why not just wait until you're finished? Sometimes things shift around. I can wait.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 18 Oct 2011 - 6:42

The Hired Sword kind.

And frankly it's pretty much sorted. I'm going to keep it pretty basic for now, none of the vows/fighting styles; which I might add in in any later general Orc project.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 18 Oct 2011 - 8:11

Hmmm... Not that im privy to all your games or testing or anything, but I usually feel like it takes somewhere between 2 or 3 campaigns worth of gaming to properly test a warband. This may be a different case since it's more an alteration than a brand new list, and maybe you guys are cool with how it's playing, but I know my group at least wouldn't allow the inclusion of a warband that had only had a hand full of games worth of testing. But then again, it's not like you ever said you were making this for public consumption.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 18 Oct 2011 - 13:15

Playtesting: well, 2 or 3 is an ideal number indeed. I wish I could say everything at my styroheim site has had that must testing, but I'd be lying.

That's part of the reason I asked which "rangers" he meant... if you were running the B-orcs against a brand new elf band, you can throw the data out. NEVER play-test two bands against each other, or you get scewed results. (Not to say you can't do it for fun, but it's the greatest flaw of peoplewriting new campaigns- the bands are balanced against each OTHER, without being balanced to the core bands.)
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Tue 18 Oct 2011 - 14:03

Sorry, didn't mean that I'm done, just that there's not much else to really do without the play-testing required, which will take a while.

Anyway, spent a little time today fiddling on OpenOffice, no fancy graphics or anything yet.

Linkage.


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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 19 Oct 2011 - 3:52

A few nit picky things:

Lower the max toughness to 5 instead of 6. That's more keeping with the 5th edition black orcs (a maxed out lord had S5, T5.)

Your Big Un's probably shouldn't have Comb, Shoot, Strength, AND speed. Should probably lose one (shooting or speed. Maybe shooting, as they don't have any missile weapons anyway.) Da boss can keep them all as normal.

Throwing Axes: You list two different prices, 20 & 25gc. However, if you want, here's the rules I came up with for axes:

Armor: your armor is priced cheaper than the normal stuff. This is fine, but you might want to make a note that it's cheaper for start up and start up alone. (This is a standard practice, but you KNOW some player's going to try and abuse it if you don't state it explicitly).

THROWING AXE
15 gold crowns
Availability: Slayers-Common, (Non-slayers, Rare 5)
A smaller axe specially weighted for hurling from dangerous distances.
Range: 6”; Strength: As User ;
Special Rules: Thrown Weapon, Axe Thrower
SPECIAL RULES
Thrown Weapon: Throwing axes suffer no penalty for throwing over half range, or for moving and shooting.
Axe Thrower: All heroes armed with Throwing Axes and have access to Shooting Skills may learn the following skill, Axe Thrower: “The warrior can throw a maximum of two axes in his shooting phase, both of which gain +1 Strength, and may divide his shots between any targets within range as he wishes. Note that this skill cannot be combined with the Quick Shot skill or the Knife Fighter skill.”
The skill Knife Thrower does not allow the user to throw multiple Throwing Axes.


Ard 'Ead: this is on there twice.

Oi Behave: At first I couldn't find it, but say it at the bottom of the document. Very confusing. I recommend you stick the "Oi Behave" rules underneath the leader. You could also move the animosity rules at the top of the document, but that's less vital.

Big Un's - They are really just 40gc Orc Big Un's with the Black Orc Rule. 50gc should be fine.



AND THAT'S THAT! Overall, really neat.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 19 Oct 2011 - 5:08

StyrofoamKing wrote:
A few nit picky things:

Lower the max toughness to 5 instead of 6. That's more keeping with the 5th edition black orcs (a maxed out lord had S5, T5.)

It is a bit silly really, isn't it?

Quote :
Your Big Un's probably shouldn't have Comb, Shoot, Strength, AND speed. Should probably lose one (shooting or speed. Maybe shooting, as they don't have any missile weapons anyway.) Da boss can keep them all as normal.

Yes, since the Young 'Uns are gone I copied out the available skills and noticed that too, no more shooty for them.

Quote :
Throwing Axes: You list two different prices, 20 & 25gc. However, if you want, here's the rules I came up with for axes:

Arg, I put them in at 20 and then added cutting edge for 25 (for fluff more than anything and an excuse to put the price up) and forgot to raise the other.

Tempted to remove them and put them into the list of additional equipment for the campaign I'm writing. Gave them a tweak for the moment.

Quote :
Armor: your armor is priced cheaper than the normal stuff. This is fine, but you might want to make a note that it's cheaper for start up and start up alone. (This is a standard practice, but you KNOW some player's going to try and abuse it if you don't state it explicitly).

I know, I know. It was a case of fitting things in without huge gaps appearing because of some small notation.

Quote :
Oi Behave: At first I couldn't find it, but say it at the bottom of the document. Very confusing. I recommend you stick the "Oi Behave" rules underneath the leader. You could also move the animosity rules at the top of the document, but that's less vital.

Again this was based more on space than anything else, yes it's confusing, moved it back

Quote :
Big Un's - They are really just 40gc Orc Big Un's with the Black Orc Rule. 50gc should be fine.

60gc is how they are in the original rules, plus they are S4, regular Big 'Uns are S3, though +20gc does seem a bit steep even then.

New version.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 19 Oct 2011 - 15:37

Silly: Not really. They're orcs, except with +1WS, and +1S. That's their shtick.

No Shooty: Cool.

Throwing Axes: Boy, I've seen entire threads based on the throwing axe. Here's the nutshell version:

>The Norse treat them exactly like throwing knives. Norse don't have missile skills, so it stays simple.

>The Beasthunter HS has axes, which are throwing knives at +1 S. He can't get Shooting skills either, and if it's Hired Swords only, +1 Strength won't be broken.

>As stated above, my version has them be throwing knives as default, but with a skill, you can throw 2 at +1 Strength (a mix of both.) Statistically, this is likely to cause FEWER wounds than 3 attacks from a knife thrower, so I find it fair.

Big Uns- You're right, I thought the old Big Uns had S4. How about 55gc?
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PostSubject: Re: Black Orc Warband alternate rules   Wed 19 Oct 2011 - 17:17

Given there's so much external discussion and/or versions of throwing axes banding about I've cut them out, replacing them with throwing knives.
Overall it was a little extra for the Black Orc side of things; it doesn't seem quite right for them to run around with bows and guns, but a complete lack of ranged was niggling. Throwing Knives do this to some extent (if it's necessary at all). Plus throwing axes hardly scream 'Orcs only' like Choppas do, so giving them to the warband felt a bit forced. Better a campaign-wide item with expanded rules.

Big 'Uns at 55gc.

Links should follow to the updated version.
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