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Wolfram

Wolfram

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeMon 7 Oct 2019 - 22:32

Hi, all.  I've been playing Mordheim on Tabletop Simulator a bit and yesterday I purchased a box of Empire State Troops to start playing "for real."  I'm looking at building the following Middenheim mercenary list out of the box to start with:


++ Warband (MiddenHeim Mercinaries) [500pts] ++

+ Heroes +

Champion [45pts]: 8x Experience
. Equipment: Axe, Shield

Champion [45pts]: 8x Experience
. Equipment: Axe, Shield

Mercenary Captain [120pts]: 20x Experience
. Equipment: Axe, Dueling Pistol, Light Armor, Shield

+ Henchmen +

Swordsmen [50pts]
. Equipment: Buckler, Sword

Swordsmen [50pts]
. Equipment: Buckler, Sword

Swordsmen [50pts]
. Equipment: Buckler, Sword

Swordsmen [50pts]
. Equipment: Buckler, Sword

Swordsmen [50pts]
. Equipment: Buckler, Sword

Warriors [40pts]: Promoted, Skills
. Equipment: Shield, Spear

+ Stash +

Stash: 91x Warband  Rating

++ Total: [500pts] ++

(I mostly took axes on the Champions for the cumulative -2 save modifier when coupled with the S4 they get for being Middenheimers, and the dueling pistol so that I have at least some ranged firepower; hopefully the accuracy will make up for the lack of fire volume.)
Does this seem like a good direction to start with?
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Leavhon
Warrior
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Leavhon

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeTue 8 Oct 2019 - 12:13

9+ models ... check.
Ranged weapon assigned to BS 4+ ... check.
Swordsmen ... check.
Full starting heroes ... missing.

I politely suggest you to hire a couple of youngbloods, they're essential in exploration: give a bow/spear/sword to each one and you can have both for 50 Gc, the same cost of a single swordsman.
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bitxo
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bitxo

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeTue 15 Oct 2019 - 1:19

Yep, always taking the complete set of heroes is pretty much a nº1 rule in Mordheim when setting up you warband list. I will tell you how I would run that list, if you don't mind.

The main issue I see with this list is it's a close combat warband with close to none shooting and no cheap cannon fodder. You definitely need them, both to approach shooting bands, and hold charges of close combat bands, or every casualty made by enemy marksmen or charging beasts (possessed, brutes, vampire...) will hit hard your wallet (two dead 50gc swordsmen in the after game would be a huge blow). Keep also in mind spears aren't that useful on I3 warriors, the revised rulebook says that spears strike first, but the charging model strikes first also, so anything with I4 hits you first despite the spear, and against I3 enemies you have to roll a dice.

If you want to keep the full close combat concept, I would drop some equipment like the spear, shields, and specially those bucklers that aren't that useful (start getting all of those after the first or second game), one less swordsmen, and get at least 3 or 4 warriors with just one hammer for 28gc to act as your meat-shield, then charge with the swordsmen from the back line. Since you got an Empire State Troops box, I guess that's the reason you want so many swords and axes, but making some of those into hammer wielders should be an easy conversion. Your youngbloods should work great as sweepers with halberds, charging knocked or stunned enemies to get exp points and develop fast. They end up being better fighters than champions after 2 or 3 games, since they develop much faster.

Good luck with your warband! that box has some nice looking models that perfectly fit Mordheim's setting.
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Rhydderch
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Rhydderch

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeTue 22 Oct 2019 - 15:04

If this list is meant for campaign play, then Leavhon is absolutely right, you should buy in some youngbloods. I'd also get some marksmen, preferably with longbows -- even when they don't hit, missile weapons tend to be frightening enough to control some ground at least (ie put a marksman overlooking an alleyway, no-one uses that alleyway). I also assume you're playing with the rulebook 'default' settings, & no house rules or alterations -- I'll write to that end.

Usually two attacks is better than a shield or buckler in Mordheim, so you might want to save gold from defences to keep for extra attacks.
Don't worry about armour too much -- it's expensive, so not too many people use it. I like giving it to some heroes, because they should have nice things(!), but it isn't a priority, and you don't need to break it that often.

Bitxo is wrong about spears: they strike first when charged, even by a warrior with a higher initiative (unless there are other special rules in play that over-ride that -- in early games, there shouldn't be). I like them as a henchman weapon, because people get nervous about charging them, even if the henchman is rubbish. Dwarf slayers were afraid of my verminkin! Bwahaha!

All that said, welcome to the Forum & welcome to the wonderful nightmare of Mordheim!
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Leavhon
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Leavhon

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeWed 23 Oct 2019 - 12:11


About the 'Strike first': http://broheim.net/downloads/rules/Errata.pdf (official errata)

Page 34, Who Strikes First Replace the paragraph with the following: “Normally, models fight in order of descending Initiative with the highest striking first. If their Initiatives are equal, roll a dice to see who fights first. If a model stood up in the Recovery phase of that turn, then he will strike last irrespective of any other circumstances. Sometimes a model will be allowed to ‘strike first’ for some reason. Most commonly this is because they charged in that turn, but some equipment, skills and spells produce the same effect. If only one model ‘strikes first’ then it does so and the remainder of the combatants strike in Initiative order as described above.
If there are several models who are each entitled to ‘strike first’, then they determine the order of combat between themselves by Initiative, as described above. Once all those that were eligible to ‘strike first’ have fought, any other combatants fight in Initiative order.”

A charging model strike first, a spear wielding model also, so they should compare their Initative value and fight in order.
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Rhydderch
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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeSat 2 Nov 2019 - 12:10

Spear, Special Rules: "Strike First. A warrior with a spear strikes first, even if charged, because the long shaft of the spear allows him to thrust it at oncoming enemies before they have a chance to hit him. Note that this only applies in the first turn of a hand-to-hand combat."

Fairly definitive, to my mind. The entire point of the spear (pardon the pun) in Mordheim is to counter the charge -- especially if you use the errata ruling that you can't dual wield with a spear. Now if one warrior with a spear charged another, then I'd say the spears neutralise each other, & the charge bonus applies, unless another rule is in play to counter the charge.
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Leavhon
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Leavhon

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeTue 5 Nov 2019 - 21:04


Again, from the official errata:

"Page 42, Spear Replace the Strike First rule with: “Strike first: A warrior with a spear strikes first in the first turn of a hand-to-hand combat.”

Sadly, the spear-wielder model doesn't 'Strike First' against a charging opponent, but both should compare Initiative, as the previously quoted errata said.
I know that is a heavy nerf to the spears (I still use them, mostly for the look), expecially with the second part of the spear rules (Page 42, Spear Add a new special rule between “Strike first” and “Cavalry bonus”: “Unwieldy: A warrior with a spear may only use a shield or a buckler in his other hand. He may not use a second weapon.” ), but it is still an official change ... as could be official for a game abandoned for at least 13 years.

IMHO, this is a question (one of many) that should be clarified among each gaming group before before starting to play.
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Lord 0
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeWed 6 Nov 2019 - 3:12

For what it is worth, the houserule my group eventually settled on is:
Spear: 5 gold
Str: As User, strikes at Init+1.
Strikes First if used two-handed.

10 gold for a staff with dagger on the end is way too much.
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bitxo
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bitxo

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeWed 6 Nov 2019 - 8:59

that's a nice house rule, the original price makes no sense. Spears are rarely seen in my group, except for high initiative heroes with two sets of weapons like vampire or skaven assassin. I guess you should get the +1 to AS when using one handed with shield (if you use that other house rule, we always do).

Not so sure about the always strikes first if two-handed, but I guess if you kept using them that way is because it doesn't break things when used with your other hose rules (do skaven players exploit them at that price?). The always strike first correction from the official errata was deeply necessary, spears were overkill on it's original form, even without dual wielding restrictions. It was more than 15 years ago, but I remember using them with dwarf beardlings. Since they are rock hard and not so expensive at 35gc, they were safe to use to hold charges and untouchable being supported by heroes with pistols and slayers to countercharge. Didn't use that many times, it wasn't fun.
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Rhydderch
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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeWed 6 Nov 2019 - 15:11

Crikey, that is what the errata says -- my apologies to Bitxo & Leavhon. Welp, that's a bad ruling & I'll never recognise it. I understand the 'Unwieldy' rule, even when it's sometimes frustrating, but deleting the spear's one benefit (as a defensive weapon) just seems unnecessary. Unless, of course, you somehow have enough mounted warriors to benefit from the spear's other rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeWed 6 Nov 2019 - 15:47

We also use the +1AS for shields and bucklers in melee and it has not made things less fun.

Strikes First was needed for spears to keep them compelling. If you are using them two-handed then you are forgoing either a second weapon or a shield or buckler. You better be getting something good.

In practice, expendable skaven don't use spears because at 5 gold they are more expensive than good old dagger/dagger (or dagger/club if you are feeling extravagant) and skaven heroes have better options. That being said, *occasionally* a skaven hero or two will get a spear so they can utterly dominate Initiative, but then if it is only occasionally I would call that 'mission accomplished' for weapon diversity.

Human heroes with two or three attacks will sometimes use spears and Ithilmar spears to compete with Elves, Skaven, and Vampires. If they have a few melee skills to back them up it can be a viable option.

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Leavhon
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Leavhon

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PostSubject: Re: Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)   Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz) - Page 16 Icon_minitimeWed 6 Nov 2019 - 17:28


There's no need for apologies, Rhydderch. The game itself is old and house ruling it could help to balance playing.
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