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 Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead

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Kaptain Dedgob
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PostSubject: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 3:31

Getting to actually play is still taking it's time for me as I need to build a git-load of terrain, but in the meantime I've been trying to patch a suitable warband for my friend who wants to play as undead. The normal undead list is boring to play as due the common complaints (nearly no ranged, hardly any troops that can pick weapons and waiting for LGT rolls is way too luck based). The Restless Dead list from BTB looks more fun to play as, but my friend really wants a vampire and dire wolves. So my question is: How will I combine these two lists and keep it balanced?

- Lich is out of the list for sure and the restless dead special abilities you can gain through experience. Replaced with the vampire.
- Dregs and ghouls are replaced with wights and grave guards. The wight blades seem pretty unbalanced though.
- Does the scarecrow have any place in this list in your opinion? It could be represented with some other kind of monstrosity of course.
- Dire wolves are in and so are zombies and the skeletons as normal.

We can iron out the unbalance better later once we game, but it would be good to have a roster ready beforehand so he can start doing the miniatures.
If anybody has any experience of how balanced the restless dead are to play as, I'd like to hear. Additional ideas and such are also welcome.

Thanks in advance!
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 5:15

I think you have the right idea... if you take only the strongest part of both warbands, you'll have a balance issue. (Other than the Vampire, the ghouls are the strongest part of either of the two bands, so leaving them out is a GOOD way to keep things fair.)

Both warbands have the following:

1 Leader (Liche / Vampire)
1 Necromancer
3 Support Heroes (Dregs / Grave Guard)

0+ Slow moving, non-experience learners (Zombies / Zombies & Skeletons)
0- 3/5 Experience learners (Ghouls / Wights)
0-2/5 Elite Killers. (Dire Wolves / Scarecrows)

So, if you want to have the above rules, I recommend the following:

1 Vampire
0-1 Necromancer (with gofer skill)
0-3 Grave Guard (the wight blade is good, but I don't think it's too broken... if you think it is, adding +5-10gc to the hero's price might balance it out a little)

0+ Skeletons
0-3 Wights
0-5 Dire Wolves

If you want, you can include Zombies AND Skeletons, but I think it helps limit you. Yes, Skeletons are better than Zombies, but they cost more. Therefore, they cheapest unit in your army is now slightly less cheap.

Spells: Who's affected by the following spells:
Reanimation: Zombie (of, if the warband has no zombies, skel).
Call of Vanhel: Zombie, Skel, Dire Wolf, Grave Guard

Warband size: I recommend you go with 15. Leave out the Restless Dead special skills that let you increase the size of the warband and number of zombies. NO ZOMBIE BOMB skill, that thing is deadly.
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Kaptain Dedgob
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 8:08

Great observations and nice roundup there Styrofoam. Think it's better to just ditch the scarecrows and stick with the wolves. I know my friend wants both skeletons and zombies so we'll leave them both there. I know it's a bit silly that there's only a 5gc difference between a unit that can have weapons and another that can't, but we're not that competive people anyway. If it turns into a problem, we can always raise the price of the skeletons.

So what we have here so far:

1 Vampire
0-1 Necromancer (with gofer)
0-3 Grave Guards

0+ Skeletons
0+ Zombies
0-3 Wights
0-5 Dire wolves

Max warband size: 15
Special skills: Deathspeaker, Drink Blood (=Wraith Touch, vampire only), Forbidden Rite
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 20:17

I'd say drop the special skills.

Deathspeaker: Only in there because the Restless dead has only max warband size of 12. But if you wanted to make it a Necromancer only skill, that might be fine. Anything to encourage the use of zombies.

Drink Blood/ Wriath Touch: No no no no no. This is a fair skill in the Liche warband because the Liche has a starting toughness of 2. The vampire is a warband-wrecking monster. If you gave a S7, T5 living-hurricane the ability to steal wounds, you're going to have some upset players really fast.

Forbidden Rite: Ew, not completely unbalanced, but not really fitting the style of the warband (the Liche warband is about casters.) A Necromancer only skill makes sense (as the vampire's not a caster.)


May I recommend you look at the unofficial Vampire Skills published in Town Cryer? I can post them if you want.
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Kaptain Dedgob
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 0:17

StyrofoamKing wrote:
IMay I recommend you look at the unofficial Vampire Skills published in Town Cryer? I can post them if you want.
Please do. As for the wraith touch, I kinda like the idea of it, but I was thinking of weakening it a bit. My friend told me he doesn't want to use the maximum characteristics the original rulebook had in them, so the vampire can never become that powerful in our games. Perhaps limiting this ability to be used once ber battle or so would make it fair. The vampire feeds and his belly is full.

But I'm all ears to hear about the unofficial vampire skills. Maybe there's some more suitable ones. Just to spice up the roster a bit more.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 20:39

Vampires' Skills
Transfixing Glare: The Vampire is able to hypnotize a victim using his glowing red eyes, the victim will remain passive and wait for the Vampire to close. The Glare may be used on any living model in base contact that is not Immune to Psychology. The victim must pass a Leadership test on a 2D6 or be transfixed. A transfixed model may not attack in close combat and is treated as being Knocked Down for purpose of being attacked. Roll for the Glare at the start of the combat phase. (TC11)
Mist Form: A Vampire's human form is only one of many and a few can transform into a thin mist in the recovery phase. While in this state the Vampire has a move of 2D6" per turn. He may not attack in close combat, shoot with a missile weapon or cast spells and he gains no protection from armor. All to hit rolls against the Vampire need a natural '6' to hit and all to wound rolls need a natural '6 '. Note that this may not be modified by any bonuses as it represents the protection of a non-physical form. The Vampire may reduce the injury roll by -2. If the Vampire is Knocked Down he immediately reverts to his physical form. The Vampire may change back to Vampire form in any subsequent recovery phase by choice. (TC11)
Ratswarm Form: Some Vampires hold a sway over nature and they can transform into animals such as a wolf, a swarm of rats or a giant bat. A Vampire can change form in the recovery phase regardless of whether the Vampire is Knocked Down or Stunned but he suffers all penalties for standing up for example. The Vampire may change back to Vampire form at the start of any subsequent recovery phase.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 3 0 3 3 * * 4 * * Use the same characteristics as the Vampire.

While in Ratswarm form the Vampire may not use weapons and does not receive any protection from armor. He cannot shoot with a missile weapon or cast spells but can attack in close combat without a penalty for fighting without a weapon. The Vampire should be represented by a Ratswarm base but treat the Vampire as being the size of a single rat for moving through alleys or similar small spaces. The Vampire may move through small holes and gaps that would allow a single rat-sized creature to pass through and can thus move through walls as most have a small holes in them. (TC11)
Bat Form: Many Vampires can transform into giant bats. A Vampire can change form in exactly the same manner as detailed above.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
8 3 0 3 2 * * 1 * * Use the same characteristics as the Vampire.

Whilst in Bat form the Vampire may fly and ignores movement penalties, he cannot run as such but may move double distance and a charge move is also doubled. The Vampire may not use weapons and does not receive any protection from armor. He cannot shoot with a missile weapon or cast spells but can attack in close combat without a penalty for fighting without a weapon. (TC11)
Giant Wolf Form: Many Vampires can transform into Giant
Wolves. A Vampire can change form in exactly the same manner as described above.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 4 0 4 3 * * 2 * * Use the same characteristics as the Vampire.

Whilst in Wolf form the Vampire may not use weapons and does not receive any protection from armor. He cannot shoot with a missile weapon or cast spells but can attack in close combat without a penalty for fighting without a weapon. (TC11)
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Tue 16 Aug 2011 - 5:45

I think it seems reasonable - certainly a good place to start from and see how it plays out.

"I know it's a bit silly that there's only a 5gc difference between a unit that can have weapons and another that can't,"

Well, 5 gc + the cost of the weapons, so not that unreasonable. I certainly think having both is fine (and provides fun modeling opportunities).

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Kaptain Dedgob
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Tue 16 Aug 2011 - 6:59

@ StyrofoamKing
My endless gratitude for being such a helpful chap. cheers
Think I'll ditch the special skills for now like originally planned and perhaps give more thought to those later. The town cryer skills were a very interesting read though.
I'll whip my friend into making those models now, as this should be good enough to get started. I'll post if we can think up some own skills or additions to the roster.
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PostSubject: Re: Undead list integrated with the Restless Dead   Today at 23:02

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